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- quakerorts, on 04/26/2008, -47/+2733 cops unload their guns into a car of unarmed men who had done nothing wrong and get away with no convictions. That it just not right.
- Aitese, on 04/26/2008, -24/+122I just posted this on a dupe of this before I found this one:
I'm quite sure...in fact I'm convinced these cops would not have shot if they knew the guys had not guns...that's not my issue. I'm in no way saying these men shot them on purpose. I'm sure the same is true in the Amidou Diallo case.
The problem is the way these cops are trained…what goes on in the stations they work at…what climate and culture do they work in every day. Sometimes on Digg we talk about cops like they are not regular folk just like all of us, but then we humanise them when the agenda fits. Some cop loses it at some snotty kids that you yourself would lose it at and it’s “yeah, but cops should show more restraint…they are in authority” but something like this happens and it’s suddenly “they are only human; what would you do in that position?”. The fact is we don’t know what we would do in either position…we’re not cops. But I do know about my job and how the opinions of others and the culture of the organisation as a whole shapes MY worldview.
The NYPD is institutionally racist.
The individuals don’t have to be racist or hate black people (some of them ARE black people) but if there is a culture of targeting black men…if they are trained to assume the worst of black males, not explicitly, but implied…if their superior and training officers have tainted their training with personal bias from years on the streets and all the other crap that we as regular people go through, an institution itself can become racist. At that point training goes out of the window and natural instinct kicks in. My natural instinct when faced with something that poses harm to me is to get as far way from it as possible and if flight is not an option, kill it.
I want to know what training cops get, what stories get traded back at the station that makes them basically TERRIFIED of young black men. So terrified they would actually see (and again I am convinced the guy saw what was not there) a gun or an armed man. I was once in a fight that broke out in a petrol station on my way to a wedding…my mother was there and started screaming “he’s got a knife!” about the guy who was at this point on the floor after I’d hit him…he was holding car keys. All logic went out of the window for my mother due to fear…he was a black man, I’m a black man. He was on the floor, I was standing…I had the fight over and done with, yet my mother, fearing for my safety…the safety of the guy least in trouble…saw more danger than there actually was. That’s what fear and other overwhelming emotion does to you, and the fact is the NYPD seem very scared.
Directly after the July 7th London Underground bombings here in London we were all on egde and in that climate the police shot an innocent man at point blank range in the head 7 times…total and complete illogical fear. None of the witnesses could give a coherent account of what happened, on a packed public transport vehicle…fear clouds the mind.
If the NYPD/London cops are that scared whether it be of gang violence, black men, 9/11 or 7/7 and therefore anyone who even remotely looks Arab…should they be protecting us? - inactive, on 04/26/2008, -32/+116Didn't you know the cops can murder whoever they want.
- kemp34, on 04/26/2008, -11/+8650 shots? Is that ever needed?
- Jsmuli2, on 04/26/2008, -21/+77Great to know my tax dollars went to that.
- vtobar, on 04/26/2008, -13/+64And what's even worse two of the officers were black, so they can't even say it was racial.
- kansai22, on 04/26/2008, -7/+57Besides the fact that no one was drunk. The officers were in plain clothing and in an unmarked minivan. Sean Bell and his friends most likely thought they were being car jacked.
- queotic, on 04/26/2008, -14/+61I told my friend who is a cop that the Sean Bell's murderers were found not guilty. He had been sympathetic to Amadou Diallo, so I thought it would the same in this situation. Nope. He said, "We weren't there, so we don't know what happened. We don't know the facts. NY cops get targeted everyday, so I understand why they're trigger happy. It wasn't fair that everyone assumed from the beginning that the cops were guilty." It's exactly this type of cop mentality that results in this type of tradegy. Other cops know better than the average citizen what kinds of atrocities are being committed, yet they choose to perpetuate the Blue Wall of Silence (according to my friend, cops are afraid of losing their pension from their higher ups if they report someone). I told him that we DO know the facts; neither Sean Bell nor his friends had guns, said they had guns and no gun was found to back up the cops claim that Sean said, "Get my gun." We know that Sean wasn't doing anything wrong when he was harassed by the cop. And most importantly, we know that 50 shots is 49 more than necessary (actually, 50 more than necessary since Bell wasn't doing anything wrong). I said - it doesn't matter if NY cops "get targeted" everyday because that's NOT justification for being trigger happy. "Trigger happy" and "protect and serve" don't go together.
I don't even know what to say about this. I knew that it was a possibility they'd get off because we have a crooked system, but I guess that I thought, ultimately, Sean Bell's fiance and family would get justice. - jroll8481, on 04/26/2008, -19/+59Facts:
They had no guns
They tried to drive off when a plain clothed officer pulled a gun on them after they were just involved in an altercation. Would you really sit there if some one not dressed like a cop pulled a gun on you? Matter of fact if the cop heard them say they were going to get a gun, yet they got in the car to drive off....why did he pull a gun in the first place?
One cop had time to reload his weapon meanwhile not one cop took any fire since...they had no guns.
The judge discounted all of the witness testimony because of people having prior convictions. Keep in mind, almost all the testimony said the same thing, normally when people lie stories don't add up.
Looked at the facts........which trial were you following? - Bukowsky, on 04/26/2008, -3/+36I don't know enough about this to make a comment about this being a good or bad decision.... BUT, I'm wondering why protesters would chant "KKK, KKK" to the cops, when two of them are black.
- inactive, on 04/26/2008, -33/+65I'm pretty sure ramming police cars while driving drunk is something wrong.
- Sinai, on 04/26/2008, -12/+42People are missing the point of 'beyond reasonable doubt." What the cops had to prove to be declared innocent was that they reasonably believed that deadly force was required, and specifically for one guy, that 31 shots were necessary. The police had a stronger story, being able to convince the judge that they believed that the three men were going to their car to retrieve a gun to shoot people inside the club. One of the victims Guzman was seen arguing with a woman at the club and he and his friends left in anger, and the police officers heard that they were going to get their gun. When asked to hold their hands up in the air, the driver accelerated out and hit a police vehicle.
At this point, from the officer point of view, you have a man who you believe to be armed with a firearm who has been making death threats and is clearly angry, who is now attempting to flee from the police. At this point, an officer fired a round at the vehicle. The officer was black, which is important no matter how politically incorrect it may seem. At this point, the other officers, knowing the suspects were dangerous, can reasonably said to have acted in good faith that the first officer to fire had a good reason. In fact, in that situation, I would personally assume the officer who fired saw a weapon being drawn. Five officers out of seven fired their guns, 31, 11, 4, 3, and 1 shot respectively, for a total of 50 rounds fired. This is less than one clip for all but one officer.
Were they wrong? Yes, almost certainly, as no gun was found on the scene belonging to the victims. But could they have reasonably believed they and other people were in danger? Based on the facts above, I would say yes. And the judge agrees, primarily based on the undercover police having a more consistent story. That's all there is to it. - Klak, on 04/26/2008, -15/+45its not a whites vs blacks thing its a cops vs blacks thing. it just seems like all cops approach black males as if theyre criminals and have guns.
- jmpeagle, on 04/26/2008, -4/+33I like how the trial had no jury....did the cops waive that right in hopes of a trial less biased with passion and hoping a judge just looks at the facts?
- Sinai, on 04/26/2008, -1/+25Generally, you only want a jury trial if the facts are against you. Normal procedure is to ask for a trial by judge if the facts and law are with you, and ask for a jury trial if they are against you, and then you appeal to emotion and irrationality of the jury, as you know the jury has a poor understanding of the law.
- ProfessorSYM, on 04/26/2008, -9/+33How does that make it worse?
- SPR10, on 04/26/2008, -27/+50remember karma's a bitch. I give'em 1 month, tops.
- xerodustrial, on 04/26/2008, -7/+30There was no jury in this trial. The officers in question waived their right to a jury trial in favor of a private hearing and ruling by the judge, which has always been constitutionally viable. It was a very smart decision -- had they actually gone to trial with a real jury, they probably would have been convicted.
Presumably they waived their right to a jury trial on the advice of their lawyers, who are paid by the State, and thus, know how to game it for best results -- clearly, it worked. They also know that officers like these, with long reputations of relatively good repute (amongst their peers and judges at least), are much likely to walk away from an incident like this if they address the judge exclusively.
Traditionally, the decision to waive a jury trial is counterproductive to the 'justice' process. Most defendants who waive their jury trial rights receive harsher sentences. This case was an exception to that rule because police and judges frequently pal around.
Am I upset about this? Certainly! Am I surprised? Not in the slightest. - Klak, on 04/26/2008, -7/+30this is why we need to get rid of this deceptive way of policing. how am i supposed to know if some guy with a gun in plain clothes telling me to put my hands up is a cop or not? he yells "hands up police!" what if im in a car? whats to stop any criminal from carrying a gun around and robbing people blind pretending to be a "plain clothes" cop? if some guy was pointing a gun at me, i would try to run him over too.
- Elliuotatar, on 04/26/2008, -1/+22Cops should not be allowed to pull people over in unmarked vehicles for that very reason.
- pakruse, on 04/26/2008, -1/+21Apparently the KKK lowered their entrance requirements...
- zephyear, on 04/26/2008, -3/+22read this about the testimony, the guys were just being pretty ***** stupid
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/25/sunny.bell/ind ... - queotic, on 04/26/2008, -4/+23Race card? What are you talking about? Two out of the three cops were black. And uhh...no, justice WASN'T served. How can you think otherwise when an unarmed man who broke no laws is shot at FIFTY times?
- mrgeekguy, on 04/26/2008, -1/+18Most cops will empty their guns in life threatening situations. There was a case in my town not to long ago where a kid aimed his gun a four cops, each cop emptied their 11 shot clips, and he was hit 36 times.
- Sinai, on 04/26/2008, -7/+24The fact that it was his wedding day is quite frankly irrelevant and an attempt to appeal to emotion.
- edstate, on 04/26/2008, -5/+22They waived their right to a jury trial for the very reason that part of the country is known as "Lawsuit Alley". A jury of "peers" in certain parts of The Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn will ALWAYS turn in a verdict AGAINST "tha man". Be it the cops, or a company. And it doesn't matter if they're right, wrong, or sideways.
- BigManOnCampus, on 04/26/2008, -5/+21I don't find that a fair comparison. If the cop is chastising a child, there is no potential threat to the cops life. In a deadly-force situation where you feel someone is about to unload on you, you do what you can to protect yourself, cop or not. I'm not justifying what happened, I'm just saying that your comparison is completely unfair. If a cop feels his life is threatened, then he/she is allowed to shoot back to protect themselves just as anyone else is. The question here is were they really justified? One of the cops ducked for cover first, the others seemed to just open up with their guns. That's where we should really be questioning motivations here. If one of the cops had the presence of mind to seek cover first and worry later about returning fire, then why weren't the other ones doing the same?
- zephc, on 04/26/2008, -6/+22No, most clubs water down/add extra ice to their drinks so they spend LESS per person on alcohol. They don't need alcohol to keep guys there - women grinding on their laps does the trick.
- iceman0113, on 04/26/2008, -15/+31FTA: "This sends a message to New York City police officers that when you are in that position, when you are in front of a court house, when you are in front of a court bench, you will get fairness." Meaning, go ahead and unload 50 bullets into a man hours before his wedding, you'll be acquitted. Disgusting. Today, Justice weeps through her blindfold.
- oldhick, on 04/26/2008, -8/+24Yeah, don't you know that when the cops start shooting at you, you're supposed to sit still so they can kill you with fewer rounds. ***** retards trying to survive! Whats up with that *****. I'm surprised the survivors weren't charged with fleeing death.
- queotic, on 04/26/2008, -8/+23"Misunderstanding"? Having an undercover cop start harassing you when you're doing not anything wrong, then having them shot at you and your friends 50 times is a "misunderstanding?" I don't think so. And yes, a cop can be held accountable. If they hadn't bothered that poor man in the first place and make him scared enough to try and drive off, they wouldn't have been in that situation.
They "misunderstood" the way Hillary "misspoke." - jroll8481, on 04/26/2008, -11/+26Who was drunk? Sean Bell had one Long Island Ice Tea at a strip club. Most strip club drinks suck to begin with so I can't see how it was enough to make him drunk.
- swrostmore, on 04/26/2008, -20/+35After firing 50 shots at the unarmed men (emptying multiple clips and reloading), the cops then handcuffed the victims as they lay dying on the street.
If the victims were white, the cops would have gotten the death penalty. There is absolutely no question about that. When was the last time an unarmed white person was shot by the police? - jroll8481, on 04/26/2008, -4/+19Cops in DC just did the same thing a few months back. They shot a kid on a bike in the back of the head but then said the kid pulled a gun on them. They found no gun at the time but miraculously a gun was found near that scene 3 weeks later while investigating another crime that the cops said matched the description....Got to love justice in this country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic ... - iidestined, on 04/26/2008, -13/+28Aren't officers only allowed to fire when their lives are in danger? How did they prove that their lives were in danger?
"it takes shots to shoot back" - the game - ProfessorSYM, on 04/26/2008, -5/+19You seem to be the only one playing that card right now.
- trujillonorte, on 04/26/2008, -21/+35complete ***** if you ask me! cops literally get away with murder in ny...
- bgrah449, on 04/26/2008, -4/+18RTFA dude. No jury trial. So you officially don't know WTF you're talking about, at all.
- queotic, on 04/26/2008, -4/+18But they were not approaching him because of prior convictions, so what does it matter?
- DaviDTC, on 04/26/2008, -7/+21They should of all got at least charged with reckless endangerment.
- quakerorts, on 04/26/2008, -7/+20Reminds me of South Park's "They're headed right for us!"
- jroll8481, on 04/26/2008, -5/+18The majority....wait all of the members of the KKK are white, should that mean it is okay for me to automatically assume every white man to be racist and want to hang me?
- enchantedsky, on 04/26/2008, -6/+19Whatever!
I'm a Canadian (native of Toronto) who has lived in New York City for 15+ years, and I have been mugged about 4 times here. All of the suspects were either Black or Hispanic ------ it was never a white person or an Asian. It is wrong to be politically correct and say there is nothing wrong with black/hispanic youth when they are the very reason why neighborhoods are bad. Unless the problems are confronted, only then will change for the better occur.
Anyone from Queens, NY? I was once I was attacked by a 20 year old Black guy in Forest Park.......I was riding my bike, and he took out a baseball bat and starting hitting me with it. I almost died from that incident.......the NYC cops who stopped the attack (the guy got away though, but didn't get my bike in the end ironically after all that) and they told me that the Blacks in the area are problematic, and commit most of the crimes in the area. They weren't racist in saying that, they were telling the truth. Many women raped in the area described the suspects as being Black.
Blacks and Hispanics need to change their culture of hate and violence, and only then will other races of people not be afraid when you cross them on the street. And incidences like cops targeting them won't happen again - queotic, on 04/26/2008, -14/+26You don't even need 50 shots for an elephant. Those cops are animals and unfit to "protect and serve."
- pintomp3, on 04/26/2008, -3/+15i was unaware drinking and driving carried the death penalty
- Ouze, on 04/26/2008, -7/+192 out of 3 of the cops were also black, so not sure how racism comes into play here. I'm not saying they shouldn't have shot - or they should have. I wasn't there. All I can say is the options here are a
1.) tragic mistake
2.) poor training/incompetence
3.) 3 cops just randomly decide to murder someone in a totally spectacular way in front of tons of witnesses.
One of these things does not belong. - 14justice, on 04/26/2008, -6/+18The car was parallel parked on the street. The guys got in and started to move the car. One cop, not in uniform, stood directly in front of the car, drew his gun and started yelling. It was dark. It was a bad neighborhood (i.e., it was New York). The windows were probably rolled up. Several guys in a car see a man pointing a gun at them and yelling something, they're going to be making noise too. Maybe someone yelled something like "It's a hold up! Punch it and run him down!" You're in a panic, what would you do?
The cops caused the incident 100%, and they are 100% guilty. - edstate, on 04/26/2008, -7/+19Are you seriously saying that "young black men" DON'T commit most of the crime in NYC? Ever read a newspaper?
- staticneuron, on 04/26/2008, -3/+15Those "plain clothes people with guns"..... I don't know where you live. But I can tell you, people claiming to be cops, with the intention to do harm is commonplace in some area's. If some random dude pulls a gun on me while I am in a car and I think my life is in danger, you better believe I am going to run that bastard over.
You are trying to defend the cops but is still flakey in relevance to what went down that night. - queotic, on 04/26/2008, -6/+18Why do you assume we haven't read up on it? They may have had "reasonable suspiscion" that there was a shooting about to take place (doubt that), but did they have ANY reason to suspect that Sean Bell was involved in it? And since Sean had no gun (and I VERY MUCH doubt that he said, "get my gun" since none were found), what was the purpose in even pulling out a gun on him?
And SO WHAT if there was "tension?" Cops are supposed to be trained to handle these types of situations. If a cop cannot handle a "tense" situation without shooting an innocent, unarmed civilian, then THEY ARE NOT FIT FOR DUTY and need to be fired. -
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