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- McMultiverse, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37Okay, let's bring everyone up to speed with Israel and the Middle East:
* The Middle East was pretty heavily colonialized up to the end of WW2. The Allies had to secure the help of locals to fight 'Ze Germans' mostly by guaranteeing self-determination and helping out nationalist movements.
* After WW2, the British pretty randomly carved up hunks of land and gave them to the folks who supported them during the war ... but didn't give a ***** about tribal, local, politacal and religious lines.
* Britain (and the rest of the Allies), because they were total ***** throughout most of history to the Jews and because the Jews just got ***** with REAL BAD during the war, also "gave" Jerusalem and the surrounding Biblical Holy Land to a group of international Jewish zionists. Zionists believed in recreating a Jewish homeland ... which is actually sort-of forbidden in the Torah. It's complicated.
* They called this land Israel, where the diaspora (the "tribes" of Jews spread around the world) would come to recreate the Jewish state. Sounds pretty keen right? Except that:
* This area they decided to rename Israel was ALREADY FULL OF PEOPLE. This area was called, by the British prior to the creation of Israel, Palestine. The residents, mostly Muslim, were kicked the ***** out by the Allies and the new Isrealis. Which got peeps ragin'.
* So now we're up to 1947, and the hatin' has been tossed around for a while. When dudes decided it would be a good idea to separate Palestinians from the Israelis, they didn't consider allowing any of the Palestinians they kicked out to return to their homes. This only got dudes even more pissed.
* The whole time this is happening all the nations newly created by the post-colonial Brits are forming their own governments and becoming nations, which is rad. Except:
* These new nations are real pissed on behalf of their Palestinian bros. being ***** on and Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia declare war on Israel. Holy *****, Israel has no regional friends and is pretty *****, right?
* Well, the only countries that actually invade are Egypt, Syria and Jordan. They get their asses handed to them so hard Israel grows a half size bigger then before the resulting peace treaty was signed.
* Meanwhile, the governments these new nations are forming tend to be nationalistic and/or communist and the U.S. (who wants unlimited access to the region's oil) keeps assassinating their leaders and installing dictators friendly with Uncle Sam. Which gets more people pissed. This is the start of Islamic fundamentalism prominent role in Middle East governemnt, with the democratically elected president of Iran overthrown and replaced by the Shah. Who just happened to be a repressive wingnut.
* Alright, so now (1956) this charismatic Egyptian leader named Nasser (naturally, supplied by the USSR) decides he is fed up with being the West's bitch and closes the Suez Canal to teach them a lesson. Dude had balls. Turns out that was a pretty bad move though, because Egypt is then invaded by Israel, France, and Britain. They occupy the canal for a while.
* Many moons (1964) later, the Palistinian Liberation Organization (PLO) forms to "Get Israel The ***** Out" by doing stupid things like suiciding themselves for virgins and glory.
* A short time later (1967) Egypt closes part of the canal again (so much for lessons learned) and triggers the "Six Day War" ... where Israel destroys the Egyptian Air Force on the ground, manhandles and occupies Egypt's Sinai peninsula and Gaza (it's still occupied), then absorbs the West Bank from Jordan (also still occupied), and the Golan Heights from Syria. Apparently, these were all places where attacks were springing from. They occupy these territories for a while.
* Jews all over high five each other for being awesome at war, Arab Muslims get even more pissed at these losses.
* Not being satisfied to eat ***** twice already, Egypt launches a suprise attack during the Jewish day of atonement in 1973, starting the Yom Kippur War. They retake the Suez, while Syria takes back the Golan Heights (which sounds a little like an Arab themed condo tower). Anywho, because that whole Cold War ***** is going on, the respective sides are being armed to the teeth by the U.S. and the USSR. Israel again ***** kicks both Syria and Egypt.
* After that a whole bunch of suicide bombing happens and some more presidents/leaders are assasinated (one Jewish dude by an even more hardcore kill-the-arabs Jew). Tensions run high, with every minor attack escalating to the point of some small town or village or settlement getting shat upon. Israel now raids the surrounding countries with its massively superior armed forces whenever it gets suicide bombed or a kid throws a rock at a tank or whatever and Arab dudes kidnap soldiers and blow up cafés in response and the cycle just keep on going and going and going...
In a nutshell, that's Israel and the Middle East. Iran doesn't really stand a chance, but they gain brownie points in the region for posturing. - johndi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+30What is breaking? That's already getting really old. Just submit it without using your amazing astounding buzzwords.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Ahead? They've had a ***** time for years.
- DCMacHead, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16While it looks prety bad, I don't think we can call it World War III...yet. I think the moment Israel strikes Syria, which can't be far off, that's when it starts.
I'm curious if Iran has thought this out, as they, to the best of our knowledge, do not possess a nuclear weapon. It would seem if they wanted to use it they would wait to escalate this situation. Iran has pretty much lost control of how this situation unfolds because Israel is on the offensive.
It should be an interesting weekend, news-wise. - nixr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16My sympathy goes out to those who live in that region of the world. I suspect that some very rough times are ahead.
- thewebguy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18this is where all of the conservatives come out and say something like, "peaceful religion my ass!"
- über, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Peaceful religion, my ass!
- treed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15I thought we vetoed the resolution.
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Well it was nice knowing everyone, goodbye!!
- malorkus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11The term "pre-emptive war" nowadays refers to cases like Iraq, where the justification for war was very questionable. The 1967 war isn't the same kind of "pre-emptive" war. If another country is actively massing troops on your border and blocking your Navy, that's an act of war, even if your country makes the first actual strike.
- nXZeVAI4wT, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11McMultiverse, that was one of the most entertaining history lessons I've read. :-D Thanks for that.
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -14/+22No he's not kidding. While Palestine is nowhere near innocent, they aren't the only bad guy.
Imagine someone came to your house and claimed it as their spirtual homeland. Then after you refused to relinquish it the man began to use terrorist tactics to assault you in your home. Finally he wins, takes over the house and you are forced to live in the tool shed. He bullys you and stops you from making a living, keeping you in incredible poverty and grief..... what would you do? Start getting pretty desperate, I think.
Israel is good a poking other countries incessantly, and when they have enough and the country hits Israel, Israel responds with devastating force and claims innocence.
Israel: Worst mistake the UN has ever made, and thats saying something - jahutch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9eatdontsendspam,
So true. It was obvious what the Arab nations were planning before the 6 day war. Israel carefully considered its options, and ultimately decided a pre-emptive strike was the only option. Israel is TINY - its smaller than New Jersey. Their strategy is that they cannot afford to fight a defensive battle. The Arab states always outnumber them, and the country is so small, there is no room to "give ground" as you would in a typical defensive struggle. For Israel to protect itself, given its location and size, it has to act offensively. They have a defensive strategy overall (ie, their purpose is to defend themselves) but use offensive tactics to implement it. If you consider the tactical realities of a nation in their position, its the only way to go.
As an aside, to respond to some other comments regarding Israeli military equipment... Yes, they use a lot of US equipment, but that is not odd - many nations do. Further, most of their equipment is apparently HEAVILY modified with Israeli built custom gear, particulary things like electronic systems, missiles, etc (some of which are among the best around). Their soldiers are some of the best trained and are definitely the most battle hardened in the world. Their airforce holds world records for dogfight shootdowns. Entire Arab air forces, with fairly modern MiG jets, have been wiped out by the IAF with a loss of less than 5 jets. My point is, to consider the Israeli military stooges driving American tanks is a gross miscalculation. Israel is a small country without the industrial capacity or land area to mass produce weapons platforms - so it buys those from US companies. That does not imply that is the sole reason for their effectiveness. (As an aside, there have and still are some Israeli built jets, based off plans mossad nabbed from France =P). - ybisme, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7the part about Australia staying out of a world conflict is hard to believe, whatever ***** the US gets in John is sure to lead us into
- wusupdoe, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Really? Where do you think it's going to form? Do you think the other Vietnam will retailiate for taking their name? That would just add more to the war, eh?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Analysts of Iran's nuclear capabilities have been very careful to specify that Iran does not yet have the possibility to "make" nuclear weapons. They never ruled out Iran possessing nuclear weapons. It's well known that Iran bought at least 50 nuclear capable ballistic missiles from the Ukraine. Nobody has any idea if any of those missiles came with the nuclear warheads or not.
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11gets easier when USA is stenciled on all of your weapons.
- drizek, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16yes, we vetoed it, so were encourging continued agression from israel which means it can only get worse.
Good going Bolton, ***** dumbass. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -14/+20funny how someone who looks like an egghead can be such a loony
- jahutch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Earthtoandy -
Yes, we provide significant military aid to Israel. And yes, its a few billion. Ultimately, that's very little for the US. Our government probably spends more on procuring toilet seats. I don't see what your point is. The US provides signifcant aid to MANY nations. Israel is our closest, and realistically, our only true ally in the region, so such aid seems justified.
And yes, I think the technical term is "buy." My thought was the military aid was in the form of money, which Israel took, and added to, and then used to purchase assets from US companies.
PS: In my opinion the only reason Israel has not joined us in middle east missions (Gulf War, Iraq now) is the political reality - Israeli troops on the soil of any Arab nation would send them into an uproar even if they were there as part of a coalition. This reality prohibits Israel from participating in any fashion. - ruprecht, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Cool, where should all the Israelis go then? Oh, you didn't really think that through, did you? Or perhaps you think they should all be murdered and dumped in the Med. Or perhaps you just repeated some slogan you read from a leaflet.
- mirunit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8"Why do you say that? Where is your proof?"
He is refering to the agressive rhetoric, direct threats to other nations, the demanding of appeasment, anti-semitism, and idologic hate. You cannot "prove" sombody is like sombody else, you should of just left it at "Why do you say that?". - jjk5, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I've read that Israel has a very powerful military, but that's the extent of my knowledge. How capable are they of fighting a multi-front war against Iran, Syria, Lebanon et al?
- Greyarea, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Congratulations on posting the single most stupid thing I've read today.
- obelisk, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Israel has USA's old weapons (F16's). Iran probably has old Soviet weapons (scud missiles).
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10"On the political field, tensions once again arose between Israel and her neighbors in May 1967. Syria, Jordan, and Egypt had been hinting at war, and Egypt expelled UN Peacekeeping Forces from the Gaza Strip. When Egypt closed the strategic Straits of Tiran to Israeli vessels, Israel deemed it a casus belli for pre-emptively attacking Egypt on June 5."
-Wikipedia
Keyword is pre-emptive - XxN3RDC0R3xX, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Umm.. it's kind of common knowledge, isn't it? Any place that talks about the Six Day War.. Israel attacked Egypt, Jordan, and Syria on 1967 June 5.
- ruprecht, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Strictly, Israel attacked Egypt, then the others piled in.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4[quote]Its pretty obvious what is going on here. Israel would LOVE a total escalation. [/quote]
That would mean the destruction of Israel by Syria and Iran's chem-bio weapons, along with those countries being nuked in response.
Lebanon and Palestine are proxies. They are pawns in a game between other nations. When Iran wants to stir up trouble (many reason why), they get someone to attack Israel which never fails to go on an embarassing, murderous rampage in retaliation every time. Iran takes no damage, but gains the benefits it wanted.
Will Israel finally go after Iran and Syria? That may be the real reason why we're in Iraq right now... - nXZeVAI4wT, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Well, ghrui, according the newspaper I read today -- which doesn't necessarily mean much -- it's ISRAEL who's bombing LEBANON, including destroying the country's only international airport and killing innocent Lebanese civilians.
- ghrui, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4nXZeVAI4wT
israel bombed the airport to stop hezbolla from moving the kidnapped soldiers to iran
so that is a legitimate move
israel only bombs hezbolla targets there and even handed out flyers to people in the area before they bomb the place to warn them which places will get bombed
and if your newspaper didn't mention the 400+ missiles that hit israel in the last 3 days you should really find a new newspaper to read that is not run by biased people to one side - gasmonso, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14Religion is a beautiful thing my friends... unless there's more than one ;)
http://religiousfreaks.com - eatdontsendspam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5They give money to a lot of countries. The U.S. also gives Egypt a few billion a year, but Israel actually votes with the U.S. in the U.N. unlike any other county the U.S. gives aid to.
- dirtyfratboy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I seriously want a "poor choice of grammar" tab added to the list of Bury Story options... Changing the comment system got rid of the "haha" and "no digg" comments (mostly)... Why not push users to make better decisions when making a submission? Everything from ALL CAPS LOCK to the growing trend of buzzwords "AMAZING/BREAKING" would be demolished.
- AhmedB, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@McMultiverse, I would say most of what you said is correct except for this part...
"* Not being satisfied to eat ***** twice already, Egypt launches a suprise attack during the Jewish day of atonement in 1973, starting the Yom Kippur War. They retake the Suez, while Syria takes back the Golan Heights (which sounds a little like an Arab themed condo tower). Anywho, because that whole Cold War ***** is going on, the respective sides are being armed to the teeth by the U.S. and the USSR. Israel again ***** kicks both Syria and Egypt."
In 1973, Egypt gained a lot of Sinai Penninsula in the first 6 days till the US started helping Israel and sending them military aid directly from the US bases in Germany and Turkey, anyhow, at the end of the war, Israel was kicked back out of Sinai, then there was Camp David, so, Israel lost on the Egyptian front in 6th of October War, but they have gained some on the Syrian front. And this is basically what made Israel sit for negotiations in Camp David, because they realized that they are not the 'super' power in the region that they thought they were... :) - earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I was only clarifying your misstated facts, not taking a side.
Besides, many I am sure misplace my statements. I do not find Israel to be an ultimate evil, or always the "bad guy". But they are certainly notable and in some situations egregious.
Being in the US is the worst prespective. They have always been the darling of the US. Its like a petulant child in a toy store, not only not kept in check by their parent, but encouraged. They have been nasty in the past and come out looking completely innocent.
I seek to bring balance to this inequity, not to paint Israel as the ultimate evil. There are far far worse. - markho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4USA vetoed the resolutin, the UK abstained.
Once more, we wash our hands. - ruprecht, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4It's good for the world to have this sort of forum for debate. Even the trolls and the timmies will be getting better educated by accident.
@ eatdontsendspam: tech roots are fine, but techies care about more than just tech and Digg is doing a good job of reflecting that. But point taken that the politics shouldn't take over. - AhmedB, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I thought I would add these links for those who are interested....
http://www.counterpunch.org/faruqui10152003.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Moulton.htm
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/index.htm - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Read McMultiverse's post if you want to know why we're stuck in this predicament.
That and oil. - djchester, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yes, so far US and Saudi Arabia is the only countries supporting Israel in the last days raids. Leave the rest of the "west" out of that alliance.
- leszek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3why do you assume the West go to the Israel side ?
- radu79, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Iran might use the nuke, and I am sure Mr. Kim will use his too, if it comes to a nuclear war.
This might be very well the start of WW3. - XxN3RDC0R3xX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Heh, none of that matters. All earthtoandy and I were saying, was that Israel attacked it's neighbours. That's all we were clarifying. You said neighbours attacked them, we corrected you. End of story.
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I would like to commend most everyone, one of the best discussion on teh internets i have ever had, so far.
it was strangely absent of name calling and zealotry.... - earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"buy" is an interesting term.
we mention that not because we paint them as "stooges" but to illustrate that the US gives them these assets.... to the tune of a few billion a year - muddo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I like that the user base and topics are expanding. Digg is a wonderful place to discuss topics of any nature. Since this was a big day for middle east politics, I think its good that the front page got a barrage political articles modded up.
Hot tech news does not occur everyday. I was getting bored with discussing every new apple story and reading the linux vs. osx vs. windows flamewars.
Hopefully the wide variety of topics will keep people from getting so emotionally charged with every argument and allow broader and more intelligent perspectives to creep into these discussions. - teethman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6stop ***** attacking *****.
- t3rmin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2ghrui:
Larger version: http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/16041.shtml - szelij, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Check your facts before you call him the next Hitler. By rule, you've already lost since you mentioned him. I agree that he's just posturing...he's not going to really do anything and the US/EU and world community won't risk a wide middle-eastern war breaking out.
Its because if Iran attacks, Israel will have to fight on three fronts against Syria, Lebanon and Iran. That's just in the opening hours of the fight. You can be pretty sure that the other Arab countries even though they don't like Iran that much will be all howling, putting their respective governments into tight spots. If the governments fail to get sucked into the war, the angry populace will most likely generate huge support for the fundamentalist groups active within the countries.
That will lead to the toppling of US-friendly regimes. The US can't go in and invade anymore because they're tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan and the rest of the world will say "***** off" to more military requests from the US.
That's not to mention that its virtually guaranteed that oil prices will shoot up beyond the $100 barrier-it may even spike to $200 or more depending on if Iran deploys its fleet in the Straits of Hormuz.
So yeah, Iran is just posturing. -
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