What is Digg?80 Comments
- Artifez, on 10/12/2007, -4/+43Well, when it costs $100,000+ to get a viable engineering degree what do you expect people to do? Indenture themselves for life in order to become a tool for heavy industry? I have the ability in math and general academics but I'd rather make a modest living and not have to pay off my student loans for 50 years. Don't complain that there is too few engineers and that places like China and India with excellent CHEAP OR FREE eduactions available are overtaking us in the world market when you are charging 1000X what they are for essentailly the same education.
- gvetterick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17It's going to cost me $25000 total to get my engineering degree in a field with 100% job placement and 55k starting salary, 75k average salary job. Above all of that, I chose to attend college to be on the leading edge of technology, to learn more and develop skills I wouldn't be able to get anywhere else. I can tell you, a lot of international students study in the United States for their graduate and more commonly their undergraduate degree. The price is worth it.
- jfreeman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18If an Indian engineering degree is superior, then why are there so many Indians coming to the U.S. to study?
In Europe, you cannot get paid to study unless you do what the government wants you to do - no freedom of choice in your career. - Avalontor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Must be, they're not here on Digg.
- Koray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11There really are a _lot_ of engineers that post at 4chan. Kinda scary I guess.
- RichPowers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I think more students are interested in the sciences than we think. But their interest vanishes once they see all the wonderful $30k/year science jobs out there. And not everyone wants to spend their lives working in the ivory tower. My school's astronomy dept. pretty much says "get this degree only if you like the field, not because you want to bring in $$$$"
Our education system needs improvement, yes, and college should be more affordable, but you can't blame people for pursuing careers with more earning potential. Until these jobs pay more, I don't see what else we can do. - drbroccoli, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8They're doing other things. The American education system has succeeded in convincing children that math is boring, pointless, and way to hard for them. The future rocket scientists are in Asia.
- smithchr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I am a rocket scientist (ok, aerospace engineer) and I have to agree that jobs are really hard to come by - but only if you don't look. I wasn't pursued after graduation, I didn't have recruiters calling me. I got good grades and worked hard on my projects, and in the end it was that and my persistence that got me my job. I applied for somewhere in the region of 500 jobs over the course of the 3 months following graduation and got 1 interview out of the process. Computers might be interesting and they're certainly a decent way to make a living, but they're very easily outsourced. I get to get my hands dirty playing with planes and making them work - that's what engineering is all about.
My point is that you can't listen to this idea that there are "no jobs" out there. It just takes persistence and effort and the degree will pay off. - tybris, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12In Europe you basically get paid for studying. Time for a little socialism?
- Jagdhund, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8That about sums it up. I am lucky to be paying only around 3k a semester undergrad for an engineering degree. That is still likely more than those in China are paying.
- masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Well, as a Physics undergraduate, I can confidently say that they're all getting engineering degrees. >_>
- carve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'm a mechanical engineer who works in the space field, and I'm 29 years old. Here is why being a "rocket scientist" lacks the appeal it once had: paper airplanes.
For someone borne in 1930's, they got to see the progression from biplanes to monoplanes to jets to supersonic aircraft before they were out of high school. In college, supersonic flight became commonplace, we developed jet airliners that looked and performed pretty much like the jet airliners we still use today, and we had rockets going into space. Once they started working, they helped develop the first rockets capabale of orbital launch, and a couple of years later they even sent people into space. A mere 9 years later, they had a man on the moon. And oh yeah- by the way...in the mean time they built a manned airplane that went Mach 6.7- a record still not broken. They also built a mach 3 bomber, the concorde, and the SR-71. After they put a man on the moon they launched a space station (skylab). By now these people were mid 30-year-old range... a bit older than me. They stopped launching men into space for a few years while they developed the space shuttle. The Shuttle went up when I was 4 years old...it is all I've seen, besides spaceship1. It is still what you use, practically unchanged. It isn't even that practical, either. We've had numerous "paper airplanes" to replace the shuttle, but all we ever make these days are drawings- hardware seldom gets built because we are too risk averse. It took 20 years for people to realize the shuttle was a bad deal, and then we decided to go back to a capsule to the moon design. It will take us longer to design and launch this capsule into space on a mere test flight than it took us to go from a suborbital jaunt to a man on the moon in the 60's. Let that sink in- we had no idea what we were doing- no experience...and it took 9 years from our first space flight to man on the moon. Today, it takes us 9 years to dip our toe in the water...of course there are so many delays now days we probably won't meet that date, and it wouldn't suprise me if we scrap Ares all together and it becomes another "paper airplane". Working in aerospace has therefore become less fulfilling because the work takes for ever, and once you've done the work it is unlikely that'll amount to any kind of hardware. The 60's by contrast must've been a very exciting time to be a "rocket scientist" - Rocketgeek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5As others may have said, the talent pool is already out there, we just have to work in other occupations because so much of the work is low paid or has been out sourced. Also, what politicians and so called heads of industry miss or choose to ignore, is plenty of us can be seen by the younger generation as not having benefited from our science and engineering degree educations, so understandably, they choose other career paths.
A better question might be; "Where are all the rocket scientists who will work for peanuts?"
And for rocket scientists, just substitute the words scientists, engineers and more and more programmers, because as much as politicians and heads of industry bemoan the loss of this talent pool, they 're not helping the situation by paying low wages and outsourcing the jobs to India and China. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7MTV is a primary reason for America's retardation. The Republican party is another.
- danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4computer science is not the field to go into. Computer engineering is where the good work is now. To many computer science programs focus too much on high level languages/web development. There are lots of jobs that pay extremely well in embedded/real time systems, most c.s. programs will not prepare for that type of field.
- bungimail, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7The reason there are no rocket scientists is simple: there are no jobs. There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed aerospace engineers out there. I know them. The best jobs for engineers are in computers. I got a Masters in EE and now I am working in software. If I had to do it all over I would have gotten a computer science degree in a university with a good coop program. There is no point in working your ass off for a cool degree and then being unemployed. I don't think people care so much about student loans because the reality is if you get a really good job you can pay them off relatively quickly. The main problem is jobs.
- tommanb182, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This is a sad story to hear.
One a brighter note, the spaceport in New Mexico is well on its way to being a reality. The first launch on Spaceport America grounds by UP Aerospace went up in October. The rocket ended up being knocked off course by high altitude winds. It went down and couldn't be found for a week, I think.
This company UP Aerospace highly supports a program called Launch Quest, an initiative to get school children interested in STEM jobs by letting them send their own experiments to space. Its pretty interesting. My engineering design class in high school designed and built the containment and payload devices for the experiments. Its pretty cool to get to see something you created go to space as a high school/early college student. - benlundquist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5We aren't going to space yet because open source technology isn't there yet. Just wait a second, you'll see.
- carve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yeah- if you actually want to be productive & creative AND see your hardware actually fly, commercial is where it is at. I worked with (not "for") SpaceX a few years ago, and the speed that company can do things just amazed me- one of my best experiences so far (although they work the hell out of their people, so be careful).
But yeah...the shuttle has been flying since I was in Kindergarten, and will continue to fly through my early 30's. When kids think of "space" at a young age now, they don't see high tech- they see stuff that hasn't changed since before they were born, which is what limits its appeal. - jfreeman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Not that many jobs get outsourced, and even still there is a huge demand for skilled computer related jobs. Check the Bureau of Labor Statistics for the future of tech-related job sectors like IT and software development. Not only are there jobs, but they get paid extremely well!
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/Careers/01/26/cb.top.jobs.pay/index.html - kendawg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6How are the best jobs for engineers in computers? Those are pretty much the EASIEST to out-source. The "best" job for an engineer, if you are talking about job security, is in civil.
- Jack9, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Valedictorian from my school became a rocket scientist. He had completed Russian V, German V, Spanish 3 by the time he left high school. He was a bright one. Apparently all the rocket scientists are out of high school, into college, then onto work just like most industries.
The 13$ scholarship he got from Budweiser (although he didnt drink nor apply) his senior year was rather funny. - zonk3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For a while there I was looking at the Bush administration's hatred of science and I started to think those guys who built mentos and diet coke rockets were the future for NASA... Fortunately things seem to be turning for the better now.
- HarrySlone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Where are the Future Rocket Scientists?
RIGHT HERE
Hire me, full time starting may 2007 - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Higher education needs a revamp. No more tenured profs, and people from industry should be teaching a lot more."
Ha. People from the industry have better things to do. You can forget about that one.
No, what needs to be done is to promote independent learning and more internships/on the job training. You learn a hell of a lot more by doing than from listening to lectures by a half-committed "industry person" who's there only because he wants to get a tax deduction. - spider-man, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Engineers are one of the most taken advantage of professionals (Teachers are even worse). The industry expectation is that you will be on salary and expected to work endless hours without compensation on a regular basis because you "love your work". Sure you might make $75k per year but it's the equivalent of 40k per year or less for an equivalent of a 40 hour work week. If you are darn lucky, you may occasionally get some straight pay (not overtime pay) or comp time for some of the extra hours you put in. Who wants to go into debt for a 100+k degree that gets you the equivalent of a 30k per year job?
I guess I'm lucky. I got my degree back in the 80's just before the cost of a degree like this was getting ridiculous and student loans of 2-3% interest rates were common. It still took me about 10 years to pay the loans off back then. - jamessavik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The really heavy science degrees- physics, astronomy, astrophysics, etc cost so much to get from top ranked schools that after 4 years undergrad, 4 years grad and then possibly more for a doctorate: that getting close to a couple of hundred grand easy.
- smithchr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Good luck. I think too many college students make the mistake of thinking that what's interesting to them is what they're good at. If you're fortunate enough to have those two qualities line up, you've got a good chance of success. People get fed up with long weekends of studying, a social life that consists of study partners having a soda break together, and just the hard work. In our culture, we want success to come easily - and in academia, it doesn't. Hard work does pay off - if you let it.
- fishface, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3mechanical engineering may be the hardest field to find a job, but computer engineering is the hardest field to find a female.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+10"Where are the Future Rocket Scientists?"
Surfing 4chan.org. - manova, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just choose your school wisely. You do not have to go to a school that costs $40k/yr to get a good degree. Go to a community college for 2 yrs and get all of the core classes for cheep, then go to a state college. I did 4 years at a state university, delivered pizzas the whole time, and paid for it all, debt free. No one should let money stand in your way.
- saifatlast, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Aerospace Engineers represent!!
- Tebixan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If you go to a public university it's not that bad. Nobody really cares where you got your degree from unless it MIT or Podunk community college. If you want to spend 100k on a degree, you're probably not smart enough to be an engineer
Also, in India, the education isn't necessarily any better, it's just that a lot more people (in the upper caste's) have one. The largest schools in India and China have a million or more students enrolled. They all work from home, and just come in to take tests. As a result, everyone has a degree, and you need a masters to stand out. They don't have as many masters programs available there as undergrad, so a lot of them come here. - hoppdawg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Higher education needs a revamp. No more tenured profs, and people from industry should be teaching a lot more.
- DDoSAttack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1All the future rocket scientists are currently in that Nullity guy's class...
- kingstefan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That pretty much goes for all types of engineering
- Mugsleymug, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2i get my wallpapers from there, it's a ***** AWFUL place.
I run an online store, and I once critisised 4chan on the front page of my shop. It was like a goon rush but with more anime references and less swearing. - Lewie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@gvetterick
100% placement eh? I did half of my Mechanical Engineering degree before I found out that there are few engineering jobs left - at least in Michigan. I see plants like Delphi closing all around me. Tell me where these jobs are, and maybe I'll consider finishing that degree. - Sk3pt1k, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Another factor in the lack of "rocket scientists" is the fact that most of the cool ***** that kids used to be able to do are seriously illegal now. You can't actually build and fly a remotely decent rocket without having clearances from five government agencies, none of which will want to give it to you. What's the fun in being a mad scientist if you can't make ***** go boom, fly higher or go faster than anyone else's toy has gone! The islamofascists have to go and make life difficult for everyone who want to do cool stuff like make UAVs or do other experiments in robotics, rockets, chemistry or any of a dozen other different fields.
- ReliableSource, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The article dangles the carrot of space tourism as an incentive. So, we need more launch vehicle designers to blast consumers into space? It took relatively few to launch the Hubble, more to save it and even more to interpret the cornucopia of data. It would be fun to bounce around in zero-g. But, just because the best and brightest don't wish to be involved in some donkey ride, don't have a cow!
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5My generation (X) at least had a vague inkling about things like irony, which takes a knowledge of what you are twisting to ironic purpose. Today's youth are post-ironic. They've moved beyond the initial referent, beyond the mocking parody, and, thinking the parody is the referent, they just stand around repeating punchlines to jokes they never heard in full.
I, for one, welcome our soulless, vacuous drone overlords. - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It all depends on which school you choose. If you choose a top ten engineering school it is going to cost a fortune. You'll graduate with lots of job offers that are about $10k a year better then the every one else. I graduated with an engineering degree from a school with a ranking of about 60. Had fewer job offers then someone from Stanfard would have gotten, but I still got a few very good offers, and my education was only $1700 a semmester. Now my company pays for Grad school at a much better school.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No mention about Indian Chinese Japanese Russian Israeli ppl etc etc
So let me get this straight that futures rocket scientist can only be found in America.
OK i admit i am biased as i am Indian.
But whom do they think are making India's Chinese and Japanese and other countries rockets ?
Jungle Book monkeys ?
China and Japan and India have made very very successful rockets and that too at a fraction of cost , example India's investment in space and related technologies is very very small something like 600 million dollar and we have GSLV PSLV etc etc and china have budget of around 1 billion and in comparison with other developed nation India and Chinese space programmes are very very cost efficient.
And India and China have Lunar mission planned at very very very low cost and in fact we have rescheduled one of our space mission to start one year early.
Space mission and are expensive dangerous and we dont have visible returns on such missions but still we are going to such missions separately.
Lets open source planning preparing and have a single pool of resource for things like sea space disease related related research for the sake of humanity.
For example how closed source in nature is America, India was planing to use Russian cryogenic technology but America forced Russia not to share the technology with India so India and had develop it on its own and it cost us delay of around 9 months.
And same policy is used with every single country and when a country starts to have big ambitions they America bully's such nation so much to give up such plans.
And that is why we have nations like Iran, funny thing is a small nation which is very close to Iran have nuclear bomb and have bullied nations surrounding to it but nobody is supposed to be scared of Israel BUT every body should be scared because Iran's to wants to have a nuclear bomb.
In Americas world one should ask permission for ones ambitions from America.
/rant - Rocketgeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> I'm tired of hearing all of this FUD about out-sourcing. It is not as bad as
> people are making it out to be!
Clearly you have a cosy job and have not been affected by it. Alright for some.
> Why would there be such high demand for IT and software jobs if we could
> send them all over to Asia?
There isn't. There's a high demand for IT and software jobs paying very low wages. That's why the jobs go offshore. There isn't such a high demand in the US and UK for IT and software jobs where decent wages are paid.
> Because in most cases, the problems associated with outsourcing aren't worth
> the savings.
Agreed. But those running large conglomerates are clearly not numerate enough to understand this.
> Get your facts straight before screaming that the sky is falling.
When you're in a cosy job it's easy to say the sky isn't falling. To some of us, we see far more evidence of it.
> The only bad apple is computer programming (simple things you can do
> with a two year degree). That's where you compete globally, so realize this
> and go for a more demanding degree and career in software engineering.
My degrees are in Physics, but lack of work in space science saw me move into software engineering. I can assure you, software engineering is little more safe than computer programming in terms of offshoring. Those up the top would outsource everything bar their own jobs if they could, so don't count on software engineering providing a protective net either. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2There's a great deal of open-source development of space projects by everyone except NASA. NASA wishes it could maintain exclusivity in space and lock out private competition. That kind of policy is doomed to failure. NASA is going to be left behind as the rest of the world advances because of open-source development and commercial cooperation.
You have to wonder about NASA's policies when the Russians are able to launch 15 satellites with a *single* surplus ICBM from the 1970s, and Richard Branson is building a space tourism business. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1They're not going for engineering because college is expensive? Explain the millions of students who pay $100,000 for degrees in non-engineering fields then; they deal with the same loans and debt as engineers. Certainly, many are restricted from college because of the expense. There is nothing saying though that poor families are more likely to have kids who want to be engineers (if anything, it's probably the opposite).
- AjayF, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A degree in Canada costs around 20,000 Canadian funds, that's what I paid but I lived at home while I went to University which saved quite alot, it was a 5 minute drive to the school. It was 2 thousand a semester so basically 4 grand a year and that doesn't include books. I still do not understand how schools in the U.S. can charge 3 to 4 times that? It's not like there is a huge difference in the value of the CAD dollar, it's at 84 cents right now. Maybe more U.S. citizens should come up to Canada for school.
- philski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Right here too. Fresh out of college and employed! :)
- banter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1We know who the future's rocket scientists are: today's college students who are getting a degree in the physical sciences. And we know we need more of them. Big ***** deal. The real question is, what's in store for the emerging space industry?
This page seems to be a good start: http://www.californiaspaceauthority.org/conference2006/
One company with a space industry niche is called Northrop Grumman. Their eerie slogan is "Defining the Future." Below is a list of their wares.
Base Operations and Infrastructure Support
Battle Management
Chemical and Bio-Detection Systems
Electronic Warfare Systems
Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance
IT Infrastructure
Life Cycle Support
Manned and Unmanned Airborne Systems
Missile Defense
Navigation Systems
Non-Nuclear/Nuclear Shipbuilding
Radar and Air Defense Systems
Satellite and Space Systems
Systems Integration
Training and Simulation - silverbritt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Females in engineering are definitely increasing though. Even since I started as an undergrad, I have noticed more and more females enrolling in my degree (Civil/Transportation engineering). I'm from a small engineering school, but I'll be graduating with 8 other women in the spring. As far as jobs go, I have already had 3 internships and a job offer after graduation (and it's not because of my minority status). I also didn't pay a fortune for my degree. There are jobs in engineering, but maybe you're not in the right field for your location.
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