What is Digg?190 Comments
- jfpwr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+62I can't wait to see this on a mac comerical
I bet the pc guy will come out in hand cuffs and a ball gag - xrisnothing, on 10/12/2007, -19/+56FTA
"I'm not going to comment on the details of the report and its implications but merely suggest that you read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions. I'd also venture to suggest that Microsoft might want to comment on Gutmann's work."
Then what the ***** was the point of writing this article? It says a bunch of junk about nothing then goes on to say ..... nothing! This is worse than a blog, or a blog about a blog. - happylinuxguy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+38Read the full report. It's quite amazing.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Here's a few excerpts from the link above:
Currently the most common high-end audio output interface is S/PDIF...Since S/PDIF doesn't provide any content protection, Vista requires that it be disabled when playing
protected content.
...Vista requires that any interface that provides high-quality output degrade the signal quality that passes through it....the picture you're going to see will be, as the spec puts it, "slightly fuzzy"
Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support...The only way to protect the HFS process therefore is to not release any technical details on the device
also in the report:
Elimination of Unified Drivers
Decreased System Reliability
Increased Hardware Costs
Unnecessary CPU Resource Consumption
Read it!!!..... and use any system other than Vista if possible... don't support this pile of crap foisted upon us. - phjr, on 10/12/2007, -5/+41I don't think it's 100% accurate, but dugg since Vista's DRM really *is* a problem.
- truck87bp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+35did you read the the report? http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
- clearzen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+35ok, so I just read the original report and all I can say is what is Microsoft thinking? Let me see if I have this right, in a nutshell not only do you need more resources across the board (ram, higher CPU clock times, better video cards) but with the increased demand on your machine you actually LOSE functionality when you pay to "upgrade" to vista. Also they can turn off your hardware. Wow, that is horrible product design.
- serrynaimo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37I'm using Vista as a developer for some month and I really don't like it! It is a lot slower than XP. The glass look is pretty cool, but I turned it off to have almost a rough feeling of speed. Everything is more ordered after some time of acclimatization, but at all it has nothing that you could not also have with XP and additional software. Except for lots of security warnings and windows defender issues...
This article reconfirms my impression that Microsoft uses its market strength not to make an OS for reasonable higher user satisfaction and more possibilities, but to have a platform for selling premium content and to enforce the connected limitations. by hook or by crook... - truck87bp, on 10/12/2007, -19/+52This is a MUST READ.
- sporkmonger, on 10/12/2007, -2/+34As a Mac user myself, I've gotta say, I don't trust Apple to be -all- that much better on this issue. I mean, yeah, at least they'll fight for the consumer against it, but ultimately, Apple wants control of your living room a lot more than they want to have DRM-free products. Linux is probably the only realistic choice if you really want to be secure and DRM-free. And me personally, I still prefer the better usability of OS X applications to the sense of idealism. At least, for now.
- ISVDamocles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+30@n0n4m3:
Personally, I think the DRM side of this is just a ruse to allow them to stifle the desktop adoption of Linux....
Wait! Don't go! I know it sounds very paranoid, but there's a very logical explanation.
First, why the actual MPAA/RIAA data protection is a load of bull:
The article mentions the existence of "DVI Amplifiers" that are basically HDCP decoders on a chip with the HDMI connector on one side and the DVI on another. The author mentions that there are several such chips in existence, as well as example boards that can be had, and that Microsoft can have specific chips blacklisted so they no longer function.
But how would they know which specific chips to blacklist unless they got a parts list of every chip out there that was ever put into such a "DVI Amplifier" in the first place? Even assuming that these HDMI->DVI devices only used large contiguous blocks of device chips that could be blocked en masse, how would they prevent you from, say, taking the chip out of a dead HDTV and making one yourself? Then you could take the raw DVI signal and turn that into unencrypted content to post on the internet, assuming HD-DVD and Blu Ray's encryption isn't broken.
So if not for media protection, then what?
The article makes that perfectly clear: hardware lock-in, as you mentioned, but even more importantly, driver lock-in.
The biggest problem for Microsoft is that in recent years, Linux usability has gone from the arcane to somewhere between Windows 95 and 98 (don't tell me it's pre-95. I remember still needing to adjust DMA and IRQ values in Windows 95, and you don't have to do that in Linux at all). Add to that that nearly every Windows game that doesn't come with CD/Installer protection will run perfectly fine in Linux with the newest builds of WINE, and one of the last bastions of those who know about Linux holding off of it, has nearly disappeared (but not for Windows games with protection, which I will admit is the majority released in the past 3 years, but not all of them [see any game by id or Epic; you can install the Windows version on Linux with WINE if you want to, not sure why you would, though]).
Add to that that the various hardware drivers are getting much more open-source friendly. Intel has donated the *source code* for their networking and graphics drivers to Linux to include in the kernel; which is why any "Centrino" laptop out there will run Linux perfectly fine (barring certain things like my laptop's camera that doesn't have open drivers). NVidia has been known for years to give Linux support in parity to that it gives Windows and Mac OS (not open source, but frequent closed drivers with easy to use installers and even a GUI configurator [fire up a terminal in Linux with an nVidia card and the non-free drivers and run "nvidia-settings"; same functionality/interface as the Advanced menu tabs they add to the Display Properties in Windows]), and even ATi has been paying more attention lately.
So the actual issues in hardware functionality between Linux and Windows (some imposed by the hardware manufacturers, some by the strictness of the Linux community) have been shrinking, and should Linux ever end up on equal ground with Windows from a driver perspective, and should WINE become complete enough to fool the software protection Windows games use, Linux will basically win out over Windows because of the more robust nature of a compartmentalized system design, the security of openly-audited code, and (most importantly in the eyes of desktop users) being a free operating system that doesn't stop you from doing what you want to do.
Therefore, if Microsoft could somehow make it impossible for Linux to achieve this hardware parity, they could keep the fight constantly uneven, and then maintain their dominance of the OS. That's what this is really all about. - Junkyarddawg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+32DRM in kernel = evil.
- truck87bp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28This is probably 'The Biggest story of 2006' for anyone that uses a computer.
- bigtrouble77, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29I've been in a few (work) situations where we were completely dependent on the software provider. By completely dependent I mean that we were using proprietary systems, generating proprietary data under a pseudo-subscription license (had to pay support costs each year). Well, one day we had a billing dispute... The next day we were shut down. Long story short, every day we were down cost us thousands of dollars so we ultimately had to give in and pay another bogus support fee. The moral to the story is to NEVER LET ANYONE HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF YOUR DATA.
When you become dependent on proprietary software and standards you are basically giving control of your data to a third party who's only interest is to make money. Vista scares the crap out of me... enough to migrate my systems to linux and MacOS to a lesser degree (Macs have their own DRM issues too). Trusted computing is a dangerous thing because it's a smokescreen for content providers to maintain control of your data. People need to realize that their rights to Fair Use is important. And convenience is not a substitute for your data's integrity. - MrDiggDugg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27"Maybe we can start a petition like the net neutrality petition."
Yeah. Online petition. That'll do it. Then we'll all link arms and sing Kumbaya 'round the fire. - Spr0k3t, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28This, my friends, is why I enjoy Linux. Microsoft and the RIAA/MPAA are too closely related in these respects.
- Arkonnan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24Dugg just for this line:
> But this isn't just a typical anti-Microsoft rant. Gutmann's report runs to 6,000 words and contains hardly any FSF-style juvenile invective. - kraemer007, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23DEAR MICROSOFT:
You've been the #1 software company in the world for over 15 years without entrenched DRM, windows authentication, or genuine advantage.
Don't get all "stupid" on us now.....
Sincerely, your "about to dump you" customer.... - spinchange, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28I'm not an OS expert, and therefore don't know whether this is entirely accurate or not, but sentiments like yours combined with everything I'm reading about Vista is really discouraging. I don't have anything against MS products, but I will probably "go Mac" (for the first time), next upgrade.
- JerodSlay, on 10/12/2007, -16/+35I agree that this is a must read. I had no idea Vista sucked so bad. I thought that Microsoft's goal was to make the PC the center of the living room (and house). This article makes me want to put my PC aside, buy a separate HDDVD drive, and hook it up to my TV. This article makes me want to void "protected" or "premium" content on my computer. The only saving grace is that someone will hack all this and provide patches to remove or by-pass this BS.
There are not many more things I hate more than DRM and restricting consumers. Now they're punishing those who pay for protected Blue Ray disks by degrading the content. Does that make you want to buy a protected disk, or download the full HD hacked version that's not protected and will not flag the OS to degrade the video?
I hope Microsoft will wake up and read this article. I am officially not going to use Vista (legally or otherwise). Even if I could get it for free off the internets, I wouldn't because of this article. That's right, Vista isn't even worth free to me anymore. If they don't wise up, I might start looking at Mac.... Mayyyybbeeeee. The ball is in Microsoft's court. "check" - Vironex, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25Vironex: future Mac owner. Honestly, I've already made this decision in concrete, but this is just adding extra coats.
- nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -15/+34>what fanboys?
He means:
a) all the PAID fan boys you see online, through Microsoft's STRONG ENCOURAGEMENT of their employees to participate in sites like this to make sure Microsoft is represented "fairly" aka push the company line. They are even encouraged to do it AT WORK. There are even bonus programs for employees who do very good jobs at astroturfing.
b) AND then there are the MCSE types who's entire livelihood and living wage is totally dependent on Microsoft because they have NO OTHER TECH skills and without Microsoft they would be out of jobs...so they naturally are defensive of Microsoft. If companies started to use something else like say linux, they would be lost in a non wizard clicking world, and that shares the ***** out of them...those are the ones who are really pissy defenders of MS.
c) All the people who just some how through whatever freak of nature like sucking on the tit of Microsoft. These are usually the same people who both fit in b) and/or the type of person who always just likes being on the winning team. You know the type...the guys who always seem to be wearing the logo's of the Superbowl winners...and never actually have a "real" team they stick with. They have a special program at Microsoft for non-employees who astroturf well and are recognized by their fellow astroturfing peers as being good...its called the MVP program and they get lots of free stuff from Microsoft, and a trip to Redmond to be patted on the back for doing such a good job of fan-boying all year etc.. - baxtermaddux, on 10/12/2007, -48/+65"Vista is the world's biggest virus"
nah. religion is the worlds biggest virus - williamdyer, on 10/12/2007, -9/+25You can sum it up this way:
1. You no longer have control over your PC. The RIAA, law enforcement, and any jackass who can pay off Microsoft can own your machine.
2. The fact you bought a piece of software is meaningless. Your money is gone, so is your privacy. Shut up and buy!
3. If you think Vista is secure, I have a bridge to sell you. - CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -8/+24"Dugg up. Time for MS Fanboys to face the truth."
MS fanboys? Are you serious? Sorry, you'll only find the mac variety of those 'round these parts. - MaximusIGN, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Yeah I agree but watch MSFT drop support for XP in record time, with all developers pressured to follow suit.
- rocket000, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18what fanboys?
- alexonix, on 10/12/2007, -13/+27not really... at least viruses do something
- wataru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Unfortunately, most consumers will never hear anything about this, or not enough to pay attention. The only way MS could really be hurt by it is if the hardware manufacturers decided not to play along, and began putting more emphasis on supporting other platforms. Imagine if the PC makers, and companies like nVidia and Creative, got together and decided to throw their weight behind, say, Linux.
Not going to happen? I'd say it has at least as big a chance of happening as a full-scale user revolt against Vista. - MrDiggDugg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12"Vista is a next-gen OS for next-gen hardware (and by next-gen i mean a decent processor more than 512mb ram and a DX9 video card). ."
You do realize that there exists precisely one video card in the world that's compatible with DX10, right? And perhaps you can explain why any /operating system/ (nothing else, just the OS & its core components) requires more than 512 MB to run its base systems? - jftitan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13After reading 90% of this vista_cost.txt report, I have to say, I am so FREAKING GLAD I made the switch to Linux, and Apple. My webservers are now 100% Linux based, and my main machine is WinXP, strictly for games, and miscellaneous stuff. My newest laptop is an MacBook Pro, and my old laptop is running Linux. I still haven't tried Boot Camp, although I really want too, but I'm just sticking with what is safe to me for now.
With this 'tilt bit' issue, degrading of video quality, DRM'd Hardware requirements, MS's ability to paperweight my machine based on revoking hardware signatures... I call this a complete waste of time and money on anyones part.
HOWEVER, as the writer of this report is really leaning toward worst case scenarios, I must say, alot of what is written is basically 'worst case scenarios' that most likely will never happen. I do understand the degradation of video output, and restrictions on media that is used on a Vista based machine will happen, I don't believe it will happen to the extent of what the author is claiming.
I used to be a MS fanboy, and I still have recent certs, and years of training that keeps me employed with MS products. But I am doing everything I can to learn/think outside the box... Think Alternative, think freedom of personal use, and think MORE. With this thought process, I have learned way more than what the MS world want people to know. I have so many new experiences with the alternative solution, I have gained customers galore because I can provide better solutions for per dollar than I used to.
I used to charge extra because of closed source products/products that I knew would give my customers trouble or have a higher support requirement. But now, I have been able to offer better cheaper solutions, with the knowledge that those products have more communities that provide better answers, and allow me to train my end users better. Leading to less support calls, and less need to charge more for 'potential support charges'.
Anywho, I'm not knocking MS because they are still my primary breadmaker, but I am so glad I am making a serious change in what I do, and my customers like it. - Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15Linux will do just fine for me, thank you.
Don't gotta worry about any of this lame MS lock-in *****. - lhnz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Am I meant to think that you are intellectual?
- teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I'd digg you twice if I could for that. that was awesome.
- Nevrast, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Because the DMCA makes it illegal to reverse engineer such things?
Don't you love your government? To them, all our reasonable issues with such draconian measures is just a bunch of crap clogging up the tubes. - teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12When APple came out w/boot camp, I said "hey, I really should make my next computer a MAC"
Now I know for sure.
what a crock.
I mean seriously, a MAC that also can run windows based programs. Why on nearth would I waste my time with such ***** as MS? - Aggaman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10This is ridiculous. I hope the user community hacks this to bits. I don't care about the DMCA or any of that other crap. I don't even care if the music and movie industries cease to exist in any meaningful form.
If it comes down to a decision between the existence of a dispensable industry and individual's rights to legitimately and freely share information that they have the moral right to do so, then I choose the latter. I don't see why my freedoms, or the freedoms of any other honest person should be restricted because some people steal pop music online. If it's a choice between this "all your base" *****, then the path is clear.
The pirates are the lesser of two evils. - mirzmaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12@darkecho:
"Your not going to use Vista because some website (might i add has been known to post ***** stories that are wrong) about copy protection."
Are you referring to The Inquirer, or the technical article they link to? I think the technical article is definitely worth reading, and certainly doesn't seem to be a load of nonsense, especially given the author's credentials (Dept. of Computer Science, University of Auckland).
Direct link to article: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt - bowels, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13An Aristotelian categorical syllogism which proves that Vista is yucky:
All operating systems riddled with DRM are yucky.
Vista is an operating system riddled with DRM.
Vista is yucky. - malorkus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14The most pathetic part is that after all these millions of dollars spent on all this ***** passed down to consumers in higher priced electronics, pirates will simply make one well set-up high-quality analog copy and redistribute that, and only the movie buffs and audiophiles will give a ***** that it's not quite perfect. Before digital distribution EVERY additional copy degraded quality. The RIAA/MPAA think they can get back to that, but it's a joke. One unprotected "good enough" analog copy + unlimited digital copies of that is just as big a threat as pure digital copies. And unless they outlaw camcorders and audio recorders, they ain't gunna stop that, and I'm sure the more sophisticated pirates can get special equipment made in China for just this purpose if need be.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Not for long
Quoting happylinuxguy
"Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support...The only way to protect the HFS process therefore is to not release any technical details on the device" - subxero37, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I recently switched to Windows XP (I had previously used Windows 2000.) I made this switch because many newer programs simply won't run on anything but XP (although they *could*, but their installers or executabes refuse to do so -- Windows 2000 = Windows XP - themes, essentially.) However, no matter how compelling the reasons could be to switch to Vista, I don't care. Hell, I remember when I used to get pissed because I had to type in a 25-digit CD key for most programs -- what a crock of *****! I bought the damn CD, why do I have to prove it? You got your damn moniesworth (moneysworth?)
Stop treating the average user like they stole something or are thinking about stealing something!
When I watch a DVD (or Blu-ray disc, or HD-DVD), I want to see exactly what is on the disc. If I feel like it, I want to copy the disc to my hard drive, because a hard drive is much faster, and hell, maybe I'd even like to make a copy of it (let's say I had kids, and that I anticipated they'd break the current copy...) I guess that's too bad for me. I mean, I only *paid* for it, I shouldn't get to do whatever I want with it... arrr.
I want content that *I* own. I don't want to be told what I can or cannot do with something I own. I don't want to be regulated; I don't want to see a poor-quality version of a high-quality HD-DVD I own.
It is ***** like this that makes me *want* to pirate movies/games/music/software. - djdocremixed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11DVD is not "Premium Content" They are going after the HD-DVD and the Blu-Ray guys (as well as the eventual Microsoft Media Hi-Def Downloading Online Store!!!!111!!one!!. As if Apple hadn't screwed things up enough by getting consumers to be o.k. with Audio DRM (as long as it plays on my iPod!). Honestly - I think they were hoping that Zune would kill iPod, and then THEY would be able to DRM everything in site with the Zune DRM, and of course Consumers would be o.k. with it.
- TheReport, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12""Vista is the world's biggest virus"
nah. religion is the worlds biggest virus"
If you guys are gonna get philisophical the I say no, Humans are the worlds biggest virus - blankoboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Unfortunately, they have already opted for the dark path. There is no road back for them...Vista is already born. 666.
- mirzmaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@masgrada:
I think the most popular noob distribution, and perhaps the most popular distribution all around is now Ubuntu. Check it out... http://www.ubuntu.com/ - lcohiomatty86, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"the content industry, through "hardware robustness rules", dictates design requirements to
hardware manufacturers"
!?!?!?! wat the crap? so now the RIAA/MPAA makes computer hardware dictations to best suit their interests...
this has gone WAYY too far - JernejL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD HERE IS THE ORIGINAL THING:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
- phaed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7fanboys get this through your heads. a thumbs down for microsoft does not translate into a thumbs up for apple
- dkoon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10lol, if it's so easy, then why are there so many xgl/compiz tutorials... hmmm.
- RedShoulder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Absolutely this is a must read and the title is very appropriate.
I am not a MAC user or fanboi, I have multiple LEGAL windows machines in my home and have installed the Vista beta to try out when it was available. However, this revelation on top of the other reviews and the fundamental fact that there is nothing special about the 'new' OS to warrant anyone to buy it (or even switch to it for free) makes it very clear M$ is going to feel some serious pain for the coming Vista debacle.
I believe that M$ already knows this and is why the short-lived 30K free Vista licenses (after sitting through a Webinar), 'Vista upgrade certificates' for some new machines and other giveaways are so telling of their predicament.
My support is shifting (more) to Ubuntu.
Now if only the hardware peripheral manufacturers would write Linux drivers for their products.... -
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