What is Digg?105 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+45It's a bit of a dull read, but it is very important that non-Microsoft users make their views known. Especially us licence fee payers who will be funding this.
- webcrumb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21You know, the BBC is the main partner in the Dirac project? Developing an open-source codec suitable for media provision and streaming?
http://dirac.sourceforge.net/overview.html - davevideogeek, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21Just filled in their web form and laboured the whole 'why are you supporting Microsoft's monopoly - get thee to some open standard platform agnostic approach immediately' line a bit more just for good measure.
If you are in the UK and you care about open standards and not letting MS off with abusing their position, you should really take the 10 mins needed to fill this in.
It's good they are asking, and the Trust seem to be pushing the BBC along the right lines, but it's REALLY REALLY bad that this is all happening so s. l . o. w. l. y
By the time this comes out it will be old hat and competing with countless other services.
Oh well...
Dave - chimera2301, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Take some time and let these people know how you feel.
Even if you don't live in the U.K. this affects you. The BBC is being a pioneer here, and they just might set a standard for how tv is going to be viewed on the web. When U.S. channels start to mimic the BBC system (because it works and people have become familiar with it) do you want it to be in a format your non Microsoft OS can handle? - DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Well they can stop using Real Player media for a start.
- neko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13"At least you don't hear all the Windows users start flaming forum wars against all other OS users out of the blue. Give it a damn rest you hating zealots."
And yet.... here you are. - RealHyperX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11BBC is using technology provided by Kontiki, a company that Verisign bought. I know this because we were one of the first investors in Kontiki.
Furthermore, Kontiki uses P2P technology that found itself (IE stolen) into many current bit torrent clients. Kontiki was 5 years ahead of its time. Rock solid tech. CNET also used it in their download manager a while back. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11No one heard of Schroedinger then. The BBC are developing their own Dirac codec for content and it will be a fully open standard. All their content will be delivered by this in the end.
http://schrodinger.sourceforge.net/
http://schrodinger.sourceforge.net/schrodinger_faq.php
To be fair their earlier moves to proprietary only standards was rather gay but this will more than make up for it. - dgblackout, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12i want something open -_-
i need to watch it on my mac, and i'm not dual booting. - jaydee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11that's because the british public pay for this service by the licence fee (which is about $300 a year and is compulsary if you own a tv set). This is also the reason that the BBC do not show commercials.
- mooninite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I don't know what you are smoking, but MPEG-4 and H.264 (x264 included, same thing) are *PATENTED* and you cannot legally encode/decode without having a license.
- scabbers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Weren't the BBC supposed to be sponsoring/making an open source video codec? WTF happened?
- GawtMilk, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15"why are you supporting Microsoft's monopoly"
Market share. They aren't going to give the finger to all microsoft users, that would be suicide. The goal here isn't to make it Apple and Linux only, rather Apple and Linux compilant. Microsoft is obviously going to be their biggest user base -- it always is. It isn't like Microsoft is a terrible company that shouldn't be supported, it is just Apple and Linux SHOULD be supported. - neko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Yes, everyone has flash 9 if you're on a 32-bit x86 system...
(and no I am not going to downgrade my browser just for flash!) - Saiing, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15>Just filled in their web form and laboured the whole 'why are you supporting Microsoft's monopoly'
Well since the web form is a consultation to allow them to find out what people want BEFORE they launch the service, frankly you're simply being a dick by accusing them of doing something they haven't even done yet.
They're asking for people's views, so that they can try to do the best for everyone. Not to be preached at by a bunch of open standards evangelists who can't understand the word 'consultation'.
Most of their radio download content is available in mp3 format with no DRM, so they're hardly supporting Microsoft's monopoly on that one. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7and it should be blogspam free.
- neko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I might have heard of Schroedinger.... or I might not.
- celticeric, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Participating in the online consultation is definitely worth the effort. I can remember firing off an email to the BBC to complain about a change to the website. The next day, someone from the BBC actually wrote back to me explaining the changes. These people have built the amazing web presence they have by being smart and listening to people. If you want open standards and browser agnostic content, then please write in.
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yes they are patented but software patents don't apply to the UK...
- mooninite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Use Ogg/Vorbis for both audio and video. It's a good codec... completely free.
Again, MPEG-4 and H.264 are *PATENTED* and are not free. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6the BBC have obviously taken the grown up approach to taking comments, if only to filter out the angry, and impatient people such as yourself.
- faxmodem, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6 I've just completed the form (it doesn't take long). There's no use use complaining about decisons made when, if we're offered the chance to affect them, we refuse the opportunity.
- srg13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Nobody's flaming anybody (except you). We just want this to be cross compatible to work on Linux and Mac as well.
"At least you don't hear all the Windows users start flaming forum wars against all other OS users out of the blue."
Hmmmm... Have you read the comments on any Linux or Mac related story on Digg? Almost every one will have windows users bashing everyone else. - 3dom, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Yawn. I'm digging this in the hope someone with a bit more energy than me right now can persuade these guys. It's vital that we maintain this public service non-DRM'd and not monopolised by microsoft. I'd have been happy to submit a basic comment myself as a license-fee payer, but having to read proposals and fill out forms etc? Way too late, way too tired. Heh, sorry. They probably wouldnt have even cared much what I thought anyway
- davevideogeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5One more thing - this consultation is from the BBC Trust - not the BBC itself. They are an advisory body, not the management of the BBC.
As you have correctly pointed out Saiing, THE TRUST are telling the BBC to use platform-agnostic technology. That's not the same as the BBC saying 'we are going to use platform-agnostic technology' indeed I imagine there would be some resistance to changing from the system they have already developed for the pilot.
That is why it's important to re-inforce the message of the trust that the licence-fee paying public want platform-agnostic approaches as well.
Dave - dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Even video.msn.com supports Linux.
If this service is just to let viewers watch episodes they missed within 7 days of airing, there's no point to storing them locally anyways. Just use Flash videos, and 99% of users won't know how to save them to re-view after their expiration. That's as good as they'll get with any DRM, which is pointless anyways because most pirates just rip BBC episodes straight from television. - butlershouse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5On March 16th the BBC Comic Relief Charity raiser will be raising funds as part of an annual BBC event. In the future this event may be extended to include content delivered over the iPlayer service. If iPlayer is restricted to a platform then the Charity drive will be restricted in the message it can deliver. Its important to highlight this to the consultation service. It is also an idea to write to the various celebrities (agents) whom will be appearing in the Event and explain as simply as possible that a single platform iPlayer if crreaed would reduce the possible audience whom will hear the charity message. Take time to show to the Trust that you have read the documentation and the summary conclusions and that there are particular phrases and ideas which concern you. The BBC is a very public organisation and it is in its own interests to demonstrate that it is not influenced by possible advertising or commercial directions .
- AxiomShell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think they will. The BBC has a good record of at least *trying* to open up standards and use OSS (The SMX components come to mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/opensource/projects/flash_tools/smx/ ), which may not be enough, but in this day and age it's certainly against the tide.
- an0n1m0us, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5BBC World uses PostgreSQL and Perl for their website work. Both very open source
- grossag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes, pressure people to choose something...definitely following the spirit of open source
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It is compulsory if you own at tv AND have it hooked up to receive tv. If you just own it in order to play on your PS or Wii or something then you don't need a license. I haven't had a license for 4 years because of this - TV programming is crap tbh. Why would I pay £130 for something that I don't use?
- nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Shame...the BBC had started to use OGG/Vorbis for audio files, they should keep using it.
And MPEG4 files using one of the high quality free/open codec like H.264(excellent with free x264), xvid(pretty good) would be a great choice.
There definitely high quality free and open options to use. - nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9YES!!
MPEG4/H264 is free and open.. has the best quality/size I think that exists right now I think. Was chosen by Apple for the iPOD, used by GoogleVideo and DirectTV for all their streams so it has wide industry support already.
There are free codecs for it(x264), and its not patent encumbered. - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you are a British license payer, I don't see how you can pirate BBC material.
I'd like to see them fight this out in court - how can you get on your moral high horse with the people who materially funded the creation of the content in the first place, not through choice like a subscription service, but because they were forced to?
This is not a joke, every actor, every cameraman, every make-up artist, every computer graphic or set - you get the picture - is being paid for by the license payer.
Hell, even the capital for them to play around selling DVDs and to sell TV series abroad has had the capital laid down by the license payer, and is fully subsidised by the license payer which is why they don't have to make a profit.
ANY such arrangement you made with a content producer would leave no doubt as to whether you were entitled to view the content as you wish. I don't see how the BBC is any different.
Unless someone materially profits from the BBC's material, there can be no aspect of copyright law in which either DRM, or accusations of "piracy" wold be well-founded as far as I can see.
I'd be very surprised if the BBC were that upset about people distributing their content within the UK, this seems entirely conducive to their responsibilities as a public service broadcaster - unless they're letting DVD profiteering stand in the way of those duties? Hmm. Review-time if so.
The only thing left would be reduction of market value - and how do you do that by paying them in advance for a service which they broadcast on TV first? - naich, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6If you can't be bothered to fill out the survey then you deserve to get a fully Microsoft-only, DRM locked-down service. I took 15 minutes to complete the form because I care enough to put some effort into it.
- JamesShiell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4They do say that if you are short of time then just fill out the questions you feel most important. So, enter details, enter one answer, done.
Although the thought does occur: All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Melodramatic perhaps, but apt. - Scorp888, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Some people have put some of the points together, let me try and put all the relevant ones in one post.
This is not MS vs everyone else, this is about choice.
The BBC to whom I am forced to pay a fee to to obtain their services "free" should not dictate what computer, operating system or anything in my life I should use.
DRM I'm fine with, as long as it's reasonable. Useable on most platforms and has an API to allow it to be used on most platforms.
I'd steer clear of saying all platforms after all, if we go too far, we end up saying beos/amiga/bbc micro should be supported.
I'd say as a good compromise I'd like to see a .exe a .rpm and a .dmg download available.
or they make sure their choice of media player is available for at least the 3 main platforms Mac Linux and Windows.
I'd also say that I don't think "windows" is a Majority. Which Windows, 3.11? 95, 98 etc.
Many of these are still in use by consumers, and most iirc except Windows XP and Vista support WM10.
So I'd like to see something that supports the earlier Windows as well. NT or 2000 at least. - Hitman101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I'm all for it man. I'd love to have all the episodes of Top Gear on demand.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"""If DRM locking mechanisms have to be used at all"""
I love the BBC, and can see no reason for DRM mechanisms to be used at all.
Look at the content, the license payer materially funded its creation, and the understanding is that as a public service broadcaster the BBC will make every effort to ensure that their content gets out to everyone in the UK - and their duties would be better served by that anyway.
In selling their DVDs, the license payer lays down the capital, the license payer subsidises any losses and the BBC banks any profits to make the TV for the license payer without handing any back.
The license payer absorbs **ALL** of the financial risk for any such venture the BBC undertakes.
I'm not an expert on the internal workings of the BBC, far from it, but I know what public service broadcasters were set up to do, and I know what I pay the BBC because I work for that cash just like everyone else in the UK.
The BBC's content should be free at the point of access, as long as nobody is dishonestly redistributing that and profiting from it - the better to facilitate their work as a public service broadcaster.
Anything done to interfere with that, including DRM, flies in the face of what we're supposed to be getting, and I'd be surprised if an organisation like the BBC wasn't in internal debate about this. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@nixfu: Google Video uses On2 VP6 Flash video...you can download an MPEG-4 for some files.
Why digg down mooninite? He's right. They are patented. However, I'm not sure about x264. I was under the impression that was OSS, and somehow not patented because it was designed from scratch. I'm not really sure about how that works though. Do you know?
One other thing though, I didn't think you needed a liscense to encode/decode(play) the files, but rather you legally need a license to create a video player that does this. So, for example, VLC should technically be paying to use the encoder/decoder. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4But what format would they use? The new internet de-facto standard for video is Flash video with the On2 VP6 codec, but that's hardly an open standard. Yes, it's cross-platform and cross-browser, but it has its own problems. What else would they choose? H.264 encoded MPEG-4? How many people would be down for that?
- Quadduc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Patent_licensing H.264 is patented, but the patents are only valid where "software patents" are legal, I believe. That's far from everywhere, luckily. But IANAL, of course.
- Saiing, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Err.. in fact they're not going to be only supporting Microsoft in the future and they've said this already. This is a from the BBC Site about the requirements for the future service:
Platform-agnostic approach: As proposed, the TV catch-up service on the internet relies on Microsoft technology for the digital rights management (DRM) framework. The Trust will require the BBC Executive to adopt a platform-agnostic approach within a reasonable timeframe. This requires the BBC to develop an alternative DRM framework to enable users of other technology, for example, Apple and Linux, to access the on-demand services. - aussieNickuss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Channel TEN in Australia is doing a free download service for their primetime shows posted the day before they air. The 2nd season of Supernatural is the only thing they've put up so far but they promise that their other popular shows are included. The only problem....its windows only!! "The Mac version of Windows Media Player does not support DRM" they claim. Whats worse....they have a link on how to use the service on the Mac.....a link straight to BootCamp site on Apple.com. Pitty I've got an iBook.
I have faxed (their only form of contact other than snail mail) my dissappointment in a complaint form. - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"""MPEG4/H264 is free and open"""
Erm.. no it's not at all, and that's a fact.
I don't know who's digging that up. Some folks who like wrong stuff, apparently. :-) - zoxed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5> Well since the web form is a consultation to allow them to find out what people want BEFORE they launch the service, frankly you're simply being a dick by accusing them of doing something they haven't even done yet.
Yes it is a consultation, but in a way they *have* already done what is accused: they ran a trial system last year, iMP, and that was Windows only, DRMed and UK limited. So if no one protests there is a good chance they will continue down that path. - kazsymonds, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Last time i wanted to watch sport or listen to bbc radio i needed real player!
No thanks. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7alas, if you don't live in the UK, it doesn't concern you. Why? because you don't pay TV Licenses, and therefore, as far as the BBC goes, you have no right to reply.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hang on, DRM? Why does the BBC need DRM?
Let me explain for the benefit of those outside the UK - In the UK you pay a mandatory subscription for the BBC known as a "TV license", which is tied to ownership of any TV-type device (and also covers radio).
Inability to pay this can lead ultimately to going to jail (there are actually people serving prison sentences for this) and nobody is allowed to have or watch their own TV, which they have paid for, without paying it either.
From this, the BBCs costs are paid, and it has some large degree of wealth in reserve from this too. It is not required to make a profit in any meaningful way and is not allowed to have advertisers, and this is what you pay for - you can get "public service broadcasting", which is really great - you might get a Lord Of The Rings radio play, a documentary from Borneo no advertisers would fund, or good films no film producer will finance etc. - which is all great. Personally, I benefit from it enormously.
However, UK viewers have paid for this content, lock stock and barrel - they are its producers - with all of this in mind, that's why I'd say it's unreasonable to impose restrictions on how and when they can watch it like you might with a profit-making business - it would always be illegal to copy the DVDs and sell them anyway, let the police deal with that.
The "digital rights management" came when we were forced by law to pay for the program. After that, we should benefit without restriction. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3My two cents on 'that' question:
The platform of the future is the Internet, not the operating system running on an individual user's machine. No one should be discriminated against because they want to watch content they have already paid for in their license fee on a computer which works properly, or because they have a moral stance against the tasteless domination of closed source software vendors like Microsoft.
Handing the BBC over to a company who willfully crush competition and actively preach against consumer choice, would be the biggest mistake the BBC has ever made.
If DRM locking mechanisms have to be used at all, a format should be developed that includes software everyone can access. Apple have successfully done this with their iTunes music store DRM because they respect the intelligence of their users who understand that breaking the DRM to illegally share copyrighted content on peer to peer networks, harms the artist's they enjoy and want to support.
Microsoft have failed to deliver a DRM which allows users flexibility and fair personal use of media, such as sharing files with other computers and devices on a home network, because they disrespect the intelligence of their own customers, who consequently have no choice but to break the DRM on Microsoft protected media, simply to make it work the way it should. -
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