What is Digg?89 Comments
- evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -12/+59Tell 1998 I said hello. Java's performance is in line with other popular high-level programming languages, including python and the .net conglomeration.
- podgey22, on 10/12/2007, -2/+44Compared to the rest of the languages that flag up on Digg a lot of the time (read: Ruby and PHP), Java wins hands down for runtime execution. Granted the runtime exec isn't so needed in a webdev situation but it certainly helps when you get a lot of people hitting your site.
I'm glad they're improving performance from the days when Java was really, truly slow but I'd rather they worked on the presentation side of things. That's one of the key things that keeps people out of Java. It's nowhere near as easy for GUI development as something like Visual Studio/.net. I know that's IDE related but once they've nailed that down they can start to compete for people learning programming.
>> Java's performance is in line with other popular high-level programming languages
It's actually quite a long way ahead of all of them. Especially native exec through gcj - mattsidesinger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31Download link: http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp
- PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24@podgey22
If you want rapid UI development check out NetBeans, it can be downloaded packaged with Java from Sun's website. There is a graphical UI editor built into NetBeans. Its not perfect and doesn't create perfectly optimized code, but it does a pretty good job. - nofrak1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20well, my guess would be Java 7
- podgey22, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Stop telling people what to do.
You're not our real dad!
"ever" - aeoo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18I'm so tired of people bitching about Java's performance. What a crock of *****. Java has been fast for a long time. Java 6 is very, very fast. Is it as fast as hand optimized C or assembly in a tight loop? Maybe not. But does your idiotic C compiler come with garbage collection? Can you attach to a C runtime in a server that's running in production and examine its structure without affecting the execution of the production environment? C stands for CRAP in 2006 (soon 2007).
And now that the entire JDK is coming out under GPL there is simply no reason to complain about Java. It's fast. It fast. Did I say it was fast? Its default tool chain is excellent (or even awesome). Just take a look at Netbeans or Eclipse. Even in Java 5 those IDEs run very fast, considering how much stuff they do! I've used both and I use Eclipse 3.2 day to day and there is no performance problem even on my relatively obsolete computer (thanks to large corp PC upgrade policies... we are constantly way behind the curve, even right at the point of a fresh hardware upgrade).
People who bitch about Java's performance are just repeating old rumors and have no clue whatsoever. Considering what you get with Java (compared to Python's "batteries included" Java comes with nuclear power plant included), and considering what it actually DOES (run time introspection, type safety, memory safety, first class exception handling, etc.) compared to some dinky language like C, there is no reason to complain.
Let's just stop complaining now. Stop saying you know something about Java when all you know about it, is some applet you run at your help desk job (an applet that was probably written by an underpaid idiot). Instead, why don't you pick up Java 6 and a modern IDE such as Eclipse 3.2 or Netbeans 5.5 and use it for 1 week, AND THEN get yourself an opinion that's not out of date. - PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15And why not? Java is a very well rounded language and anything compiled for it can run on any system. Just because its a little slower than a fully compiled program doesn't even make much a difference on modern computers. There are a lot of strengths for Java just like there are for C++, VB, .Net, etc. You just have to pick the language that has the most benefits for the project your working on.
- mrops, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@etnu
"...but resolving classpath issues can still be a hassle."
Its quite clear that you have little to no experience with Java. You stop getting classpath issue within as little as 3 weeks of working with Java. Saying you are having classpath issue is like saying you are having problem with HTML.
Further, "P" languages are ok for small websites. If you want to run your business, say large telecoms, banks dealing with billions of dollars, you don't want a "P" language. Infact, being 10+ years in the industry I can say with good authority that Java fits the bill. .NET is coming up but it still has a long way to go. Further .NET is not really offereing me anything new that Java already does not have.
Now with Java being GPLed, more power to it.
I myself use PHP and Python, but if I suggest that at my company to replace Java, I would be let go pretty soon.
"P" are good to run on my home server where I don't want to spend more than a 1000$, or to run on a hosting service that I pay 3.99/mn. But not on a multi million dollar infrastructure that literally churns our daily life, banks, telecoms etc - ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@j_bellone
Funny, I use the latest versions of VS.Net and Eclipse on a day-to-day basis and I find that VS.Net hasn't even caught up to Eclipse 3.0 (an older version) for the things that matter. VS.Net has some cool features and got a few things right that Eclipse didn't, but for just writing code and maintaining your project, Eclipse is much better. The user interface in Eclipse is much better, makes a lot more sense (I hate VS.Net's docking windows implementation, it is simply horrible and gets in the way), and is more effective for writing code. VS.Net's general bugginess also makes me like it less. The Eclipse incremental compiler and error reporting system (including the "QuickFix" feature) is just awesome; VS.Net doesn't even come close to providing something like that. Eclipse is much better for coding Java than VS.Net is for coding C#.
Why do you feel that VS.Net is better? - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Yeah. SWT/wxWidgets ftw.
- adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Just to be fair. After posting my comment I ran a little java swing app called MrPostman with the 1.6 VM and the Windows look and feel and must say that it does look pretty good.
It looks native enough to not stand out, and its font anti aliasing is very readable.
It looks pretty good. I... kind of like it. :-) I'll have to take another look at swing this time around.
Does anyone know how it works in Vista with Aero? - CGreen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Awesome, jar files actually start right away when doubble clicked in windows with java 6.
- adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13So... does Swing look and feels like something that doesn't stand out like an open sore yet?
/ IMHO the rest of Java is quite alright - Tyr7BE, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Maybe not officially released by Sun, but this baby comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Widget_Toolkit
Eclipse is written using this, and it's beautifully cross-platform with native widgets. - dylanw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Thank you. I'm not sure where all these negative comments are comming from. There's a bit of a slowdown with java compared to native code, but it's not as significant as the people posting here claim.
- dig412, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Its speed is entirely related to what your doing with it. Even small Java applets are slow in my Firefox, so much so I have to do something else for a minute. Large stand-alone apps (Azeurus, Frostwire) take ages to load, but once they're going, the speed is comparable to that of a native executable. But small stand-alone apps work just like anything else.
Remember, a lot of the speed in a program is related to the coding skill, not the language. - podgey22, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Even fanboys need fanboys.
Woo fanboys are way better than haters! - woogley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7technically, it's been in version 2 for several years. Java 5 is TECHNICALLY Java 2 version 1.5.
For years the Java platform has been considered J2SE (Java 2 Standard Edition). Before 1.5 (aka Java 5), we had J2SE v 1.4, and J2SE v1.3 .. etc etc.
talk about identity crisis.
anyway, I'm very happy with the huge performance gains each release has been giving. I've been writing games in Java for years and each release just gets better and better. - podgey22, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I'm not sure I follow the "irony" in the second half but yes, .net shares a lot of the same benefits that Java has... Apart from Java has the (built-in) cross-platform execution and .net has the killer IDE. Nothing comes close to touching VS.net
- davotoula, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yet is the new Ever
- StephenChow, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Awsome... so now what
- aeoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@malkir:
Impossible. Basically there are people who will make a slow running C application, even though there is nothing inherently slow about C. And then there are people who will make fast Java appls, even though there is nothing inherently fast about Java. (the key word here is "inherently")
When wielded by a programmer of equal competence, the performance difference between C and Java is negligible, while the development productivity in a Java environment is miles and miles above and beyond productivity you can achieve in a C environment.
However, neither Java nor C are magic pixie dust. They can both be used to good and bad effects. And there is NOTHING I can do about it on a large scale. Trust me. Even at my work, I can't preach to people. I have to work with them. If they are incompetent, I can't just tell them "hey, you are incompetent, why don't you change." I have to maintain a decent working relationship, understand? I can offer suggestions, but if the other person doesn't care, then nothing can be done. I consider myself a pretty good programmer, and even I can write some crap code on a bad day (that I can later admit is crappy).
In short, get off my case and please understand that people slog Java totally unfairly. - smitting, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7yeah no kidding. Swing looked like an open sore in 1998.
- evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10@podgey22:
Heh, I wouldn't say "all of them." I'm a Free Software fanatic, but gcj still has a *long* way to go, both performance-wise, and complete-implementation-of-jdk-wise. And the two examples you mentioned were horrible: Ruby is well known for its slowity, and PHP isn't really in the same language class as Java.
As far as visual design, Eclipse's Visual Editor ( http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Visual_Editor_Project ) is in line with the vs.net graphical interface editor. - simpleblob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I use both Eclipse and VS.NET for my work.
VS.NET wins Eclipse hands down.
(But that's just my experience.) - retinaburn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@podgey22
Take a look at a recent version of netbeans. I was at some Java event in toronto last year when they were showing off NetBeans, and Matisse. I played around with it a little, and it made gui development a lot easier. I find Eclipse's gui developer not nearly as nice.
Cheers, - hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Yep.That and I just love WebStart. Some cool new Java scripting language (soon to be released as open sorce) is F3. Check it out:
http://blogs.sun.com/chrisoliver/entry/more_f3_demos
http://blogs.sun.com/chrisoliver/entry/live_versions_of_f3_tesla - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5SWT does indeed look really great (look at Azureus; there aren't many apps with a better GUI than that), but is Java-only (unless you rofl around with virtual machines written in Java, which can allow you to use SWT in, say, Ruby).
wxWidgets has support for more languages than you can shake a Swing at, though ironically all the Java ports suck. - hansamurai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I work with Java everyday at work (and hey, we're only running 1.4.2 with J2EE 1.3 here) and I have no issues with speed. I think this is just classic FUD from 10 years ago when the forum-hound coder cared about this crap. Well, I'm sure they still exist, now it's more about Ruby, perl, php, etc.
- krinthekuz, on 09/16/2008, -8/+13saying java is good because it works on any machine is like saying anal sex is good because it works on any gender. (credit to bash.org)
- aeoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Read the Java 6 features article. Basically, for you, as an end user, you are looking at 5-50% better performance (about 15% better on average). There are huge improvements in this release for developers that wouldn't be meaningful to you.
- hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you are talking about look and feel, Java 6 has pretty much nailed it.
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/archive/2006/10/java_on_vista_y.html (Java in general)
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/archive/2005/08/mustang_swing_a.html (Java 6 specific)
If you are looking for more specific info about Java on Vista:
http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/#windowsvista
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/plaf.html - adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Oh, and the worst of all when youre a .Net dev, you have no coice ... I'll repeat, no choice... it's VS.Net or notepad"
Not true. I have used SharpDevelop on two production apps with great success. I would continue using it if it offered better asp.net support and Crystal Reports.
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/
And to develop C# + GTK apps on Linux I use MonoDevelop. (Yes, it is not exactly .NET. I know) - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4They hide performance in temp files?
- Idugdigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3So what is the difference between java 6 and java 5 update 9?
Does the regular Firefox user need to update to the java 6? - hansamurai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Because some programs only run on older compilers.
- boran, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6OMFG, VS.Net is like lightyears behind of any decent Java IDE (Eclipse, NetBeans, Oracle JDeveloper) I work with it every day (I'm a .Net developer) but I still long for the day that VS.Net gets the same intelligence that eclipse has.
VS.Net doesnt know what you're doing, eclipse does.
Example, you have a variable called tree, and you use that for a bit, then you asign Boolean a = t....
And the darn thing suggests tree as first choice, Hereby I rest my case.
And some criticize java's gui, I for one think Java's swing code is far superior to the .Net code in terms of enforcing good coding practices, enforcing an MVC approach and such, whereas if you want to have a decent MVC approach in .Net youre almost forced to use datasets and such (another horrid invention, bringing the world of relational databases right into your coding living room, but I wont rant on about that) - brasso, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Good news, maybe Azureus will be more gentle to my hardware then if µTorrent turns into crap.
- duckfighter, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9For me using .net i think its great. More innovation is always welcome, whatever framework / platform / language one normally uses.
Its funny, those who bash microsoft (or whatever corp.) for "stealing", are often those who want to opensource the world, so that we can share knowledge... The irony .. Lets just have fun doing our work - which java / .net (or whatever) does. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@djlosch
I disagree with your post, but it made me laugh so I dugg you up. - TheDrunkMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I just installed it and realized I had about 5 older versions of it installed on my computer. Why doesn't the Java SE install over the older version, or at least uninstall the older version when you install a new one?
- woogley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2free software does not always mean open source software
maybe you only consider free software as TRULY free when it's open source, but, hey. you say tomato, I say tomato.
you're welcome for the link. - Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7"Nothing comes close to touching VS.net"
Have you used Eclipse? It's pretty nice too. - clawoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I find it safe to believe that they will drop the 1.x versioning system following the next release
- n808, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you happen to use Ameritrade's Streamer Suite, do not upgrade yet. Java 6 locks up Firefox.
- jo42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you think Java version numbering is fubar, then you should see SunOS/Solaris version numbering since day one...
- BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sun's marketing department is pretty bad for that...
SunOS 5.x became Solaris 2.x (the 1.x version of Solaris was applied to SunOS < 5 ).
Then, after fooling around in the 2.x/5.x tree for a bit ( until Solaris 2.6 ), magically they dropped the major number and released Solaris 7.
A modern Solaris version's uname still reports SunOS 5.10
It's silly, but *shrug* - Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Java SWING has been able to use the "standard look and feel" for a long time now. It's worked great every time I use it. On top of that SWING is one of the best designed widget toolkits out there, unfortunately I loathe java for it's lack of true multiple inherritance (interfaces don't count), lack of operator overloading (a must for any math library), and most importantly java bytecode...
Java bytecode is portable yes, however so is any c source as long as you stay standards compliant and use cross platform APIs, and on top of that, despite numerous "questionable" benchmarks, is if not faster, far less bloated and memory intensive. - woogley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2java has always been free software. the GPL simply releases the source code to java, which is listed on the page: "Java SE 6 JDK Source Code" (link: http://download.java.net/jdk6/ )
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