What is Digg?106 Comments
- SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The only way that media will ever pay attention to the consumer is if we mass-boycott the purchasing of HDTVs, Tivos, and all media for however long it takes to break them. Unfortunatly, the average American consumer is pretty much Pavlov's Dog when it comes to gadgets and media. Hell, they even regulated that we have to be HD compliant within the decade... they are passing the analog hole, and the broadcast flag and people just keep filing into Best Buy or wherever to get their "Tech fix"... You could even say the only people at fault for this is all of us for letting it happen. Sigh....
- SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Willis - I think you missed the point completely. This is not M$'s decision, it is the media companies who are pushing the cable card and HDCP (?) schemes... Chill on the M$ hate, it's soooo 1999.... :)
SB - Taniwha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Let me get technical - the deal is this - the cable companies want to protect their content so they've designed the CableCard spec (Cable Labs is jointly owned by all the cable companies) so that you can't get data out of it without the card being cryptographically bound to the box it's in (these days this is common in modern cable/sat boxes with removable crypto cards) to do this the box has to carry a secret key (they don't just give these to anyone ... that's why they are secret) .... in order to protect the secret key the box needs a 'trusted boot chain' (which is why Vista's getting the nod but not CE or MythTV) .... you get the idea - anyway this is a long winded way of making the point that it's not the box manufacturers (be it one of the existing duopoly or M$ or Tivo or ....) you have to blame for this situation - it's the cable companies protecting their behinds (from being sued by Hollywood/the MPAA et al)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"What a freakin' tool. This isn't an MS problem, it's a CABLELABS requirement. What a tool! Learn to read you retard!"
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Microsoft did NOT have to roll over and take this, hence the hatred. It's simply another way for them to kill the enthusiast market. I probably wouldn't have been so pissed off had I not finished building/seting up my new Media Center PC tonight. The main reason I went with it instead of another option was the impending cable card support. So sorry for the outburst, but flushing a grand or so down the drain doesn't set well with me. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cable/broadband monopolies are a bigger threat to America than terrorism!
- nater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1(my first post on digg)
My opinions on the subject:
1) The average consumer is not aware of DRM and its ultimate implications, but are catching on more and more. Education of the masses is important at this point. Until people realize how they are being treated by these companies, and how they will be treated in the future, they will do NOTHING.
2) Those who are aware feel crippled, that they can't do anything by themselves and there is not big movement to be swept into. There needs to be an accessible movement that offers action to be performed for the average person, not just sending in a check. The DRM-mongers (MPAA, et al) need to have consequences for their actions.
3) Geeks need to get into politics. You can make a difference is not just by lobbying, voting, and calling your congressperson, but by running for office yourself.
There are many organizations that exist to combat this sort of garbage, but they remain on the fringes of society, seemingly reserved for the geeky/open source people. This needs to change and needs to change now. Encourage your friends, family, whoever you can to get educated and get involved.
http://www.eff.org/
http://www.fsf.org/ (In the same realm of consumer's rights)
http://www.epic.org/ (I'm not too familiar with them)
http://www.cdt.org/
http://www.cpsr.org/ - captainjy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"***** YOU MICROSOFT!!! I wasn't on the anti-MS bandwagon till just now. I spent two arms, a leg, and a lot of ***** time building this ***** Media Center PC because I knew the next update would support cable cards. Now they're saying you have to BUY a ***** computer AND another ***** monitor to get cable card support. They WILL NOT support home built PC's. ***** them."
What a freakin' tool. This isn't an MS problem, it's a CABLELABS requirement. What a tool! Learn to read you retard! - geomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"No, I'm just saying it hasn't had any sort of significant impact on profits for music and movies thus far."
--n00854180t
That comes back to my point #5: who gets to decide what is significant?
If I own a piece of property, or have an idea that I think can make money, who gets to decide whether I am asking too much? If I discover that there is a strong demand for that property or idea, then I should be able to charge whatever the market will bear - period. If someone disagrees with my assessment of value, then they are free to *not* purchase the product or idea. They do not, however, have a right to take the idea or property because of that difference in value interpretation.
So whether you or I consider the *AA's assessment of profitability rational does not mean that theft should determine the value of the product/service.
"Though, obviously you're right on the money when it comes to how paranoid the *AA are about it."
If I had a product that wasn't shrinkwrappable, could easily be shipped to multiple destinations in a matter of seconds, and could be traded/sold/marketed throughout the world without my control, I'd be a paranoid too.
So what would you do to protect the music/art/movies/television that *you* paid to produce? I chose the Sopranos as an example because a) I like it and b) I have some information about the cost to produce an episode. James Gandolfini makes about $1M per episode. How does David Chase recover that cost so that he can continue to produce more episodes when his show is shared on bittorrent?
I'd be interested to see that business model, as would the major studios. - interiot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Forcing people to sit in one little tiny corner, doing only what media companies say is specifically allowed, is simply enouragement for many, many people to hack your product, and encouragement for even grandmothers to start thinking that acting outside the law is not that bad in some cases.
- phlll, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm getting more and more disgusted with traditional TV. Maybe the "no TV" nutcases are on to something.
- briguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmmm... one more excuse to cancel my cable and steal tv from bittorrent. Good idea, HBO!
- deathguppie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The thing is, that piracy is just as market driven as new tech is. There are a lot of HDTV's out there already. That just makes the demand for piracy software all that much more relevant.
- jiub, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A Mac won't make any difference. If Apple doesn't play along too they won't be allowed to play Blu-Ray or HDVD. This is ***** from the MPAA, not MS or Apple
- dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1HDCP+EFI+DCMA=FU!
- lilricky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1""Almost sounds Big Brother'ish"
We control the horizontal, we control the vertical...""
Isnt that from the Outer Limits?
Please standby.... - Silent-Bob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's a crazy idea: how about we support the HD content that is still free? Sure, you might want to watch the occasional Sopranos or TNT cowboy movie of the week, but the majority of TV that the US watches is freely available over the air in HD. Why not stick with that? For the cost of an antenna, you get NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and PBS all free and in the clear. No need for the HDCP video card and display system. It is sad to think that you all are so damn dependent on the cable companies that something like this would freak people out......
- geomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The entertainment industry is getting bad advice from the hired hands it works with in an effort to protect its content. Capturing and containing content is difficult when broadband and large disk arrays are now in more homes throughout the world. I've read several posts from people who have more than a rough working knowledge about computers and digital communication on this topic, none of whom has addressed some simple economics and issues of fairness.
1) The cost to produce quality entertainment has gone down, but the cost of talent doesn't necessarily follow. While digital filming, recording, and editing techniques will definitely improve the cost recovery for people who produce great entertainment (thus increasing profits), the cost of actors and singers will NOT go down as the popularity of a show or music goes up (thus increasing costs - labor is the highest cost in most businesses).
2) Delivering content has become insanely cheap. No one in the MPAA or RIAA disputes that fact, nor do they necessarily like/dislike that fact. They are ambivalent about the speed/ease of content delivery. What they are concerned with is Item #1; recover costs and increase profits. Film and music producers have the same job as construction managers building a high-rise: put the project together under- or on-budget, and on-schedule. The budget side of their job is blown completely out of the water when revenues dry up due to theft. So if you like television shows like the Sopranos (which I certainly do), then *someone*, *somewhere* has to make money to pay for talent. Piracy limits the revenues which, in turn, limits the amount of money for future productions. If someone is stealing lumber from a jobsite, that is money that *will* be missing from future building projects. Insurance coverage doesn't help recover the losses because insurance *costs* something too.
3) While much of the OTA content tends to be crap and will not survive in a closed-circuit world, the likelihood that people will continue to pay for even restricted access to quality programming is high. When HBO came out, there were people who were dubious that narrow-casting would survive. Not only did it survive, it drove the uptake of cable television. As more people bought cable, the number of shows multiplied and revenues increased. As revenues increased, the quality of HBO-produced shows improved. There is a positive cycle between increasing revenue and increasing quality. If restricted access media can produce high quality entertainment, then people will be lining up for the service.
4) In order to maintain revenues and quality, someone has to protect that revenue stream (keep the lumber from being stolen). The content companies are scrambling to cobble together something - ANYTHING - to ensure their revenue. They should protect it; it is their business. Unfortunately, they are getting bad advice in my opinion. Some of their consultants may end up helping them drive revenues down by limiting distribution. When all content goes closed circuit, my last television will be a target for my hunting rifle. I won't be getting any content from cable or satellite. I've seen a couple of posts that echo this sentiment. In essence they will lose an advertising target and a source of revenue. This is short-sighted, but the people who run these companies are at a loss for answers.
5) Nothing I have read today from people who know A LOT about IT comes close to offering an alternative to what the RIAA/MPAA need to protect their business. I see several posts about how the RIAA/MPAA make too much money. They only make too much money when the market will not support the prices they charge for their product. (Strong Opinion Warning: How would you like a forum to decide *your* compensation? My compensation is a function of the free market, not opinion polling. My pay is not something I want to have decided by people who know *nothing* about my needs or goals.) In short, I don't care WHAT an actor or movie studio makes provided producers can deliver a show for what I think is a fair price for it. Free isn't a price, because the costs for producing the entertainment will never be recovered and the production of any new content will stop. When the price of a form of entertainment doesn't match my expectation of value, I just quit buying it. I don't just take it and tell them they are asking too much.
6) Perhaps it is time that we in the IT business begin offering the RIAA/MPAA an alternative for the restrictive policies/technologies that they are set to deploy. It is one thing to bitch about how "their business model sucks" and quite another to help them develop a way to protect their content from being shared around the world without their permission or compensation. The content they offer is, after all, something they have paid for, and they deserve to charge as much as the market will bear for its delivery.
Piracy is not a long-term solution to this problem. - geomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@n00854180t
"Geomon, looks like you need to check your facts."
Which facts are in dispute?
"RIAA/MPAA has still been reporting profits, even after Napster and P2P became popular."
I never said they weren't making profits. I said they are concerned about long-term risk to their revenues from piracy.
"Piracy is a minority right now."
Pay-for-download services are increasing for music. Piracy is a minority for music in some countries, but there are still problems with file sharing in countries where royalties don't make it back to the copyright holder. Movies and television are being downloaded via BT at an increasing rate.
Are you saying piracy is gone? - donkeybeach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I think the best solution is to
A) stop watching so much brain rotting TV
and
B) for the shows that are good (can list them... less then 10) move to scandanavia where there is a piracy party and do it all legally.
That way a few Americans loose some god damn weight and no one has to feel any moral guilt over the Nanny US state. - n00854180t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Geomon, looks like you need to check your facts. RIAA/MPAA has still been reporting profits, even after Napster and P2P became popular. Piracy is a minority right now.
- IBSwithmyPPTP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah and when they do this, Welcome IPTV to mainstream and we wont need a friggin' cable card. Don't sweat it people cable card wont last or even hit mainstream. Just keep pressuring your local broadband providers for faster speeds. I do my part by asking them at least once a week, seems extreme but I'm just doing my part in this screwed up American bureaucracy.
- nater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0smalldeus
those blades only work on MicroPavement-certified blacktop. sorry, you'll have to move to another community. - geomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@donkeybeach
"B) for the shows that are good (can list them... less then 10) move to scandanavia where there is a piracy party and do it all legally."
And when no one is paying for the production of these shows then where will the money for future productions come from?
"That way a few Americans loose some god damn weight and no one has to feel any moral guilt over the Nanny US state."
Yeah, blame the US. That is always the best solution. - Kitsune818, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I really think a good bit of the reason the US' broadband bandwidth is so bad is because the cable companies are afraid we'll all start watching shows coming in on the Cat-5 and not the coax..
In reality, though, I don't see how they will ever be able to truly lock down TV. At some point there has to be a conversion to analog or I can't see the image.. people will just start tapping the signals being sent to the tube/display panel and convert to a useful format. This is all just a big waste of time, and I don't think any of it will see the light of day.
In the meantime.. Hey Apple, where the hell is my Mac Mini PVR/Media outlet?? - n00854180t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Looks like CableCARD is going to tank :)
- 298th_Scat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I don't really by into this story. I really doubt this backwords move is going to fly
- generalleoff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"A Mac won't make any difference. If Apple doesn't play along too they won't be allowed to play Blu-Ray or HDVD. This is ***** from the MPAA, not MS or Apple"
And Apple is now a key member of Disney and Disney is a key supporter of heavy restrictive DRM. If someone thinks Apple is the answer then just wow... I dont think we have seen DRM until Apple and Disney get started. - SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@crapulent - lmao! good catch!
Sadly, the question isn't "If" anymore, it's simply "when"... "free" media is soon to be a thing of the past... the big boys are getting wiser as they assimilate the top pirates and we're soon going to see "practically" unhackable signals in the future. The only option will be true pirate broacasts a'la Max Headroom via IPTV...
-One of "the Bobs" - nater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0jjub
i know, i was just thinkin about how much i dislike all M$ OSes and how much i dislike linux's hardware support and software integration, and it really made me want a mac, so i said it ARRRHGHGGHGHGH!!!!@#!@$#@$# - ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The more restrictions they put in...the more people are going to fight it.
I'm seriously considering cancelling my TV service so I can stick to downloading shows from newsgroups.......***** like this is just going to make me decide sooner. - Dcscanner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As quoted by the media police "All your base are belong to us...and cableCARDs too"
- jermm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Another reason to kill your cable and use bittorrent
- n00854180t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Are you saying piracy is gone?"
--geomon
No, I'm just saying it hasn't had any sort of significant impact on profits for music and movies thus far. Though, obviously you're right on the money when it comes to how paranoid the *AA are about it. - crapulent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm a dope, I admit that upfront. I have DirecTV, not subscribing to HD stuff now, but will DirecTV and or Dish Network have cable card / firewire connectivity? Please to comment double silent bobs. oh, and will Panasonic offer Silent Bob branded devices ever?
- smalldeus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well, I've been reading up on all these predictions for the future of computing and media. And to be honest it's starting to sound like a load of crap to restrictive to be of much use. These media companies appear to be interested only in milking the customers for as much money as possible via dedicated hardware, restricted fair use and using copyright law to make crimials of just about everybody, even those who actually play by the rules. It's only a question of time when things become tough like that here in Europe too, US is already deep in it. In the end I know whats for me to do: let 'em be and have their toys - I shall have to find myself other interests than beeing glued to the screen... I wonder how they'll build DRM into my rolerblades?
- aznboi04k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0this goes to show that tv and comp just don't mix well. i swear to god, my hdtv mce gives me more headache than satisfaction. i guess tivo 2.0 will make it's comeback soon.
- uptown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Let's see what Mark Cuban comes up with....
He seems like the perfect candidate to buck the trend and come up with an alternative to this garbage. - donkeybeach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This just pushes the main stream geeks the way of BT and other piracy options. I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA, but I guess the Chinese have way more freedom in some respects... Hell I think I'd rather not be able to blog about democracy and whatnot in preference for free information... its not like the US voted Bush in to office in 2000 anyway...Over there you can buy seasons of dvds for a couple of dollars... Sure its not legal here... but honestly I lost track of what the phuc is legal here anymore.... (pants fall down)
- icannotfly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is just pathetic.
- nater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0i want a mac now
- Plac3bo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0everyone... calm down.
ever hear of DeCSS? well, don't be surprised to see DeHDCP in the future. - Silent-Bob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0*SIGH*
Mr. Smith is one of the driving forces behind independent movies, does cool comic book, and treats his fans with respect..... How is he remembered? Shilling for a line of Panasonic DVD recorders/players ;-)...... - Silent-Bob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0crapulent
Here's the thing about Dish, and DirecTV for that matter. They already have their own version of the CableCard stuff. So, the digital signal being sent down is already encrypted and that card you slide into the unit is their "CableCard". As for firewire, I am not sure what good it will do you. Both Dish and DirecTV are going with MPEG4 compression for their high-def video; a format that the current TVs with CableCard cannot decode. I guess you can look at Dish And Direc as yet two more set-top box players.... - crapulent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm a pinko commie apple fanboy, like linux, love the osx user space. What do these recent comments have to do with CableCARD certs? I feel partially responsible for taking it off topic with my Kevin Smith reference.
- SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Bunch of savages in this town.
- Ruckus21, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm heartened by the passion that I see in this thread. It's the only way that all of this corporate fascism is ever going to be defeated. If people stand by and take it, things can only get much much worse. Look what the oil companies are doing to us. They're making obscene profits while we pay obscene prices. Technology companies see this and want a piece of the action. Oil companies have a monopoly and can charge what they want. Tech companies want that same control and keep trying to find a way to lock us out so that they can use their own special brand of price controls. Well the power of the consumer is a hell of a lot more powerful when it comes to tech than to a limited resource like oil.
I imagine someday we'll all be talking about the companies that went out of business in 2007 and 2008 because of their corporate greed and I hope that you can all hold your head up and say "I helped stop the madness"
Buying power is everything in America, let's use it. - crapulent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I should say the best way would be to buy the congress critter an iPod, and a gift subscription to a Plays 4 Sure music store.
- SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0mmmmm.... now THAT's some tasty discusison!
Great post Nater, welcome to the jungle :D - crapulent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I like the new effort to buy ipods for congress critters. Once they learn how difficult it can be to transfer media legally they'll get a clue about DRM.
http://www.ipaction.org/campaigns/ipod/ - nater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0lol @ crapulent
pinko commie apple fanboy, lol, i love it
osx ~ linux w/ good hardware support (because of limited hardware) and software integration
But seriously, we're off topic again, I don't doubt that apple will hop on the bandwagon with this too. In essence the cable companies are holding them hostage. Every company out there knows that if they don't get in, someone else will and will be the only ones with that content. They can't afford to let another company get a monopoly on that technology, not when there is a lot of money to be made. Suddenly everyone has to bow to the cable companies' collective will.
And another thought i had, this creates another barrier to other cable company startups. The cable company would need to either buy into this CableCARD nonsense or make all their own hardware for distribution. Suddenly the cable companies don't need to innovate, they own the whole market with no chance of there being competition. They're forming a monopoly under the guise of creation of standards. That is, unless the standards are freely available for those who would like to manufacture boards and distribute cable content....but if hey can make a buck, i doubt it. -
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