What is Digg?66 Comments
- norman619, on 08/06/2008, -3/+15Dark Energy's fingerprint found in distant galaxies and then again maybe not. We don't know enough about the universe to make assumptions like this. They really should qualify these statements with words like may or maybe or possibly. They made up Dark Matter/Energy to fill in huge holes in the current standard model. Without it the model simply does not work and they are forced to rethink what they thought they understood and/or knew about the universe we live in. It's easier to try and force the observable universe to fit your views than it is to scrap a dearly beloved belief and try to find another that better fits all the data we have.
Here's some additional interesting reading.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/24139 - ORBAT, on 08/06/2008, -0/+7My client, Dark Energy, denies ever being in a distant galaxy and finds this allegation insulting.
- chesscat, on 08/06/2008, -0/+6I saw dark matter in my toilet.
- inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+5Wrong, he posted first, hos content is irrelevant, and certainly not a "means" of accomplishing anything.
- roddack, on 08/06/2008, -1/+6don't put metal in those.
- alex7575, on 08/06/2008, -0/+5Interesting that you mentioned it, but as a Math major some of my upper division classes happened to be "real" physics classes, but you're right about astrophysics, never took any. Also, it's been more than a decade since I took those classes, so I won't pretend to know more than I do.
Can YOU tell me what a black hole is, and what state matter exists within a black hole? Since mass and gravity are interconnected as you put it, and that alone should be enough to prove a black hole's existance, then it shouldn't be so hard for you to answer your own question. - dalnet22, on 08/06/2008, -2/+613.7 billion years old microwaves? Wow.
- f4nt0m4s, on 08/06/2008, -0/+4Fortunately, CERN will hopefully resolve some of these issues, if they find out the Higgs Boson isn't real, they may have to rethink the theories they have.
I agree though, a couple thousand of years ago humans thought the world was flat. Imagine what humanity will know in another thousand years. They might look back and laugh at us for believing the universe exploded from a single point, who knows.
Makes me wish I was smart enough to be better at Math/Physics. :( - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -1/+4Sweet, alex7575, I have a math degree (pure, not applied), so I can actually make this statement to somebody and they'll know what I'm talking about:
Dark enery and dark matter appear to be result of topological laziness. What I mean by this, is more classic physics, the work of Einstein and Newton, which is used to describe the movements and form of galaxies treats them all the same topologically. Once the proper topolgy of a sprial galaxy per se, is implemented, dark matter and dark energy (when accounting for all galaxies) falls out of the formula. Additionally, the assumption that the universe is considered to be cartesian, rather than gaussian or riemannian also probably has something to do with the inclusion of dark energy and dark matter. Although I can't speak to that without some further reading.
I've always been of the opinion that dark matter and dark energy were the result of poor physics. It seems like they were shoehorned in to account for the results of the calculations arrived at from the hubble constant (depending on type of universe of course.)
I have some other thoughts regarding physics, specifically GUTs I'll comment on further down if you're interested. - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+3It is unlikely that LHC will solve any prevailing cosmological questions, as it's not meant to do this. Although, what might happen is the LHC might eliminate, or further support other GUTs so that a more clear picture of modern cosmology can be seen. For instance, if string theory is found to be bogus (which I personally think I will be eventually), then cosmologists would be able to refine their views to correspond to the new knowledge. Or, if the results from LHC are shown to support another GUT, like LQG or Process Physics (my personal favorite), cosmologists might run with those particular theories in creating their new cosmological theory.
Needless to say, the LHC at CERN is not intended to answer cosmological questions, but the data found might clear up the picture. - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+3norman619:
Isn't that basically what I said? Sometimes I can be a little wordy, sorry if it was unclear.
If you're debating whether or not the LHC is used specifically for the task of supporting or invalidating cosmological theories, I'd have to disagree, that's not what it'll be used for. It's focus will be in the quantum realm like all atom smashers. - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+3The Dark Energy of the Universe if a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
- inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+3Redshift doesn't equal distance. A redshift occurs when the source of radiation moves away from the observer.
That aside, most cosmologists and astrophysicists don't like big bang theory. Too many singularities. So I doubt your man Arp is that ostricized. I don't know his theory, but, unless it's really dumb (which seem unlikely for a guy who assisted Hubble), he's probably accepted as much as Guth or Linde (both nasty smart and well regarded) - both of whom reject Big Bang theory. - diceau, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2Namely that which is in your head.
- forceuser, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2Objection your honor, he has no proof to back up his claim.
- chesscat, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2I'm still a stronger believer in Occam's Razor (All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best). It seems to me that instead of complicating the cosmic puzzle it's more likely that our understanding of gravity is just plain wrong/inadequate.
- inactive, on 08/06/2008, -2/+4You know, if only they had gotten the CSI people on the case, we would've found these fingerprints ages ago. Shoot, we should send 'em over a picture from Hubble. A little zoom/enhancing, and pretty soon, we'll be looking at God's own ass.
- Fallenshadow, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2neither dark matter or anti-matter have the reverse affect of gravity, and they are two separate things. Dark energy does exert a negative gravitational pressure which is minimal at small spatial scales and larger over large spatial scales, there's your limit.
- inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2alex7575,
Ah, applied math guy, you'll get a kick out of this then. This is my personal favorite GUT and it actually deals with some absolutely beautiful structures that you applied guys use pretty regularly. Well, I think it's technically out of OR, but I'm sure you're familiar with stochastic calculus (sick nasty hard, martingales can suck my ballsacks). What this guy did was construct a notion of time that throws out the classical "geometric modelling" of time and turned into a process. Instead of using a simpler stochastic model, he's using a stochastic neural network (the math that's used in that AI stuff I think) to describe the formation of the universe. If you can manage to not get bored out of your mind, this is a pretty awesome paper. If you do, just the abstract and introduction gives you a pretty good idea as to what is going on with the subject.
http://www.mountainman.com.au/process_physics/HPS1 ...
If nothing else, it'll allow you to tell all the cocky string thoerists that "no, there aren't a bunch of extra forces", "no, there aren't a bunch of new particles yet to be discovered' (I think the LHC should make them all be quiet), and "no, you will never see a planet sized string shoot across the sky like Brian Greene seems to think is possible". Those guys are such nerds, hahaha
(hello kettle... my name is pot.) - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2alex7575:
I totally believe you have a math degree, all the smartest computer guys have applied math degrees - all the pure math they'll ever need they get in their CS classes. Hahaha. Have fun with that paper, in all honesty, it took me about 3 months to get a good understanding of what the hell he was talking about, ugh.
The elegant universe is a great book and Brian Greene is smart as hell (saw him speak at the Smithsonian once - it was awesome), you should really enjoy it. Calabi-Yau spaces are pretty insane little manifolds, topology is so ***** hard, hahahaha, blows my mind a little. - disingenious, on 08/06/2008, -2/+4It's really too bad, the Big Crunch always sounded like such fun.
- Matt2k, on 08/06/2008, -1/+3I can't take it. WMDs. Killer bees. Water shortages. Oil shortages. Cancer and AIDS. The collider is going to blow up the earth. The WMAP cold spot is a huge "hole" a billion light years across. The universe is doomed anyway. And the price on my Walmart bread has gone up 100% in the last couple years.
I'm moving to a cabin in the woods because all this non-ignorance is seriously ***** with me. - norman619, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2thisguy457:
It may show us if we are on the right track or not. I may validate or invalidate some of our views of the universe. No one is saying it will be the holy grail and hand us all the answers. It is a tool like any other scientific tool which my help advance our understanding. - thegrantman, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2If dark matter(or anti-matter) has the reverse effect of gravity,then it too would have its' limits.When the force pushing the Universe apart reaches that limit,then what? Does dark matter change its nature?
- drizzlelicious, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2Science's name for the next profound, complex space discovery: Big Clutter
- oilcan, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2redshift = distance and only distance is a faulty and proven to be inconsistent notion, but this fact is swept under the rug by most modern cosmologists. the ones that refuse to sweep it under the rug are ostracized by the cosmology community for interfering with their pet theory. it is more akin to faith than science, and that is just embarrassing.
Since the central foundation of big bang theory is weak, this makes all notions spawned by it weak as well. the fact that this concept, 90% of everything that exists is unmeasurable or unobservable, doesn't scream from the mountaintops "maybe we oughtta rethink this one!" to everyone is a mystery to me.
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm
a good place to start if you're interested in learning the problems with Big Bang and modern cosmology in general. - alex7575, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2thisguy,
I have a degree in Applied Math, I didn't have the brains (or the balls) to go down the rabbit hole. Unfortunately that degree didn't get me anywhere, but I went on to become a programmer.
I'm afraid most of the stuff you're talking about is beyond what I remember, or know about. I remember Gaussian geometry from early on, and Riemannian Geometry later on. And even then I barely understood the relation between those formulas and concepts and astrophysics.
I have no understanding of how the universe is distributed topologically, but it seems like it would be expected to disagree with Einstein's theory since he never agreed to an accelerated expansion of the Universe (which is not what data's been showing us) to begin with.
As far as GUTs go, I'm scared of what you may bring up if I ask... - TitoJackson, on 08/06/2008, -0/+2Careful. Lyme disease is on the rise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Epidemio ... - theOster, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1i bet they had *real* wood laminates and that fake plastic crap...
- Chebsi, on 08/06/2008, -1/+2@jorichter
Anyone with half a brain would know that he meant to type "his". - norman619, on 08/06/2008, -2/+3I have the same hopes for the CERN collider.
- norman619, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1thisguy457:
I just felt I needed to clarify my comment because to me it sounded like you repeated what we said. :-) - Nodnarbs, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1Hmm Dark Energy and dark matter remind me of the "ether" or whatever people used to think filled space. I feel like the science is still out, I haven't seen anything really convincing or conclusive, it really seems like dark energy is the scotch tape holding current theories of universe expansion together.
- inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1you puny humans amuse me, this is breakfast
- AndrewMoyer, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1Finally something to cook my 13.7 billion year old Hot Pocket with...
- f4nt0m4s, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1If it invalidates String Theory it will put some of the smartest minds in a position to research/observe new things, and that sounds good to me!
My physic's professor gave us the "dumb person" explanation of some modern views of the universe. He said that if they do invalidate String Theory it will show that science on a grander scale is hard to validate or prove. He pointed out that most of the observations in Newtonian times could be demonstrated and proven with experiments, thus validating them. We can't validate our cosmological theories, so many of them are based solely on inferences and observations. We assume they are correct from observations.
The problem lies in the fact that we can take math and conform it to the models we have. That's not really an experiment, at least not in the traditional sense. Hence why modern mathematics, like String Theory, may fall apart and be shown to not work.
Basically, it was an intriguing and depressing lecture because it sounds like humans are at a real disadvantage to study our universe. It's just too friggin' big to make any concrete 100% positive observations.
But it is true...we have constantly changing theories regarding energy and mass in the universe, the origins of the universe are an open book to be sure, and even simple stuff like what is outside of our galaxy are being challenged everyday. Apparently the Voyager spacecraft is seeing unexpected particles not predicted by scientists outside our galaxy. Truly remarkable stuff.
Again, I wish I was more naturally talented on the subject of Math/Physics. My Calc knowledge is limited to basic multi-variable Calculus, and I've only dealt with basic Newtonian Physics/Mechanics and some stuff with Electricity. - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -1/+2Light of Christ - the divine money, power, or influence that proceeds from ***** through Stupid Humans and gives more money and power to The Church and fills the immense emptiness of their lives.
- Kingmishima, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1you forgot "/s"
- BlakkSheep, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1I'm gonna leave a dark footprint in its arse, if this m-a-t-i-r-i-a-l of yours leaves a fingerprint on me property!
Back to my trailer.
*Spit* - Jarasmen, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1Wow. No matter if you're being sarcastic or not, you're acting like a douche anyway. o_O Now that's talent.
- basye, on 08/08/2008, -0/+1@bonehead (what an appropriate name, btw): Posting the first comment in a thread isn't a 'first', it's a risk because it's the first post which is generally dugg down. I'm not afraid of it, it was a genuine comment showing support for the type of articles I hope continues to be posted here.
Does your comment ad to the discussion? - TechMike, on 08/08/2008, -0/+1Not so, snarley. You must be confusing "church" with "Christ" (Messiah), He is the glory (the visible aura) of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. He came not to give us good hair and white teeth, but to fill the emptyness in our spirit.
- h4mx0r, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1As if some great alien overlord would spend his time assimilating into human culture through digg.
- ixid, on 08/06/2008, -1/+2Read the criticisms section on Wiki about his model. There is now a much greater set of quasar observations than he used and they show no association of the type he proposed.
- cutright, on 08/07/2008, -0/+1Occam's Razor would lead you to conclude dark energy is very real. Believing otherwise would mean all quantum mechanics is wrong. Dark energy isn't just some guess out of nowhere. Observing the simplest solution to be the best requires you understand all sides of the argument.
- inactive, on 08/07/2008, -0/+1Why did I initially see this as "Dick Cheney's Fingerprint Found in Distant Galaxies" ?
I need a break - norman619, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1thisguy457:
"I've always been of the opinion that dark matter and dark energy were the result of poor physics. It seems like they were shoehorned in to account for the results of the calculations arrived at from the Hubble constant (depending on type of universe of course.)"
Nice to see we agree. One of my favorite physics professors back in college held the same view. - alex7575, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1LOL, funny thing is, I just started reading "The Elegant Universe" by Greene.
He's a pretty good showman you gotta give it to him. If anything, it tickles your imagination, and the theory fits with a lot of sci-fi stuff out there.
You threw me on a Wikipedia chase, and looking at all those formulas, made me smile a little. I'm looking at them almost like I did the first time I saw them (wtf!).
Thanks for the link, I'll try to read it.
PS: If you're trying to prove whether or not I'm lying about my Math degree, I'm not. I just wasn't all that interested in the classes, because "Applied Math" never seemed applied enough for me. So I stuck with computers, and was too lazy to change my major to CS.
If you're trying to have a discussion with someone that "may" understand what you're talking about, I'm very flattered, I wish I was half as smart as you seem to be, to be worth a conversation for you.
Thanks either way. :) - inactive, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1maybe it's because I've been talking physics on this comment section for a while, but I don't get the joke here...
is this guy saying that jesus is dark energy? is this a goofy physics joke I don't get? I thought jesus was a guy that lived a while back. he was a carpenter right? I didn't think they had physicists back then...
you lost me dighere. - nitsuj, on 08/06/2008, -0/+1"Light of Christ - the divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things and fills the immensity of space."
Total FAIL at cosmology, rational thought and being even remotely on topic. -
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