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OpenDocument wins more fans

news.zdnet.co.uk — OpenDocument Format (ODF), the open file format for office documents, is continuing to gather support from local and national governments.

Who dugg this? Made popular Jul 30, 2006

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  • nTensify, on 10/12/2007, -3/+46"you mean "bloated" and also office 12 addresses this issue, a file of 120kb in office 2003 is about 30kb in office 12, and this is small enough for me"

    Sadly that means upgrading to Office 12, which means shelling out a few hundred bucks more for a few kilobytes reduction in filesizes.

    Meanwhile, OpenDocument provides infrastructure for existing products, and a massive size reduction using standardized techniques that anyone can reimplement.

    Win: ODF.
  • maiko29, on 10/12/2007, -2/+40i opened the ODF file with 7-zip, and for example, all pictures inside the document were there just to copy and paste... i like that "openess".
  • motang, on 10/12/2007, -2/+36At my work it's all Microsoft Office, at school in the computer science labs it's OpenOffice, and at home for me it's OpenOffice. I really don't see a bad thing about OpenDocuments. I am glad it's getting more and more popular.
  • duke, on 10/12/2007, -10/+43Dude, if you're seeing blots in your documents, that's the printer, not the format.
  • mostapha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32I don't think file size matters anymore. What matters is the use of open standards vs. proprietary formats.
  • TheAttacks, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30I never really noticed that ODF was smaller than .DOC, but the main reason I like the idea of ODF is because it would mean I could take my papers written in OpenOffice and pull them up on Word at school.
  • zerblat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28@daven1986 This isn't really about OpenOffice, it's about ODF. OpenOffice isn't the only software that supports ODF. Hopefully, as ODF gains popularity, your favorite applications will support it too.
  • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29"They arnt making you to use your software,"

    Remember all that antitrust stuff a few years back?
  • nTensify, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26"@fantasticflan: yeah... that was a couple of years ago, wasn't it? lets try to keep up with the times."

    Was only a few months ago in the EU. Hell, for that matter, their millions/day fine was just in the news.
  • drizek, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28@daven Whats your upgrade path? OOo3 is going to be free while with MS Office you will have to do one of the following in a year:

    1. Continue to use a four year old piece of software
    2. Pay out the ass for Office 2007
    3. Pirate Office 2007

    I dont find any of the options particularly appealing, thats why i use OOo.
  • WhiskerTheMad, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23"yeah... that was a couple of years ago, wasn't it? lets try to keep up with the times."

    Like their current anti-trust problems with the EU? Are you a complete ***** or do you just play one on TV?

    edit: nTensify beat me to it :)
  • haackers, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27The main reason in my mind why ODF it is better than .DOC is that it's not as blotted, making the file smaller.
  • simoncoul, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Most people don't even use any of the features that MS has so it's a huge waste of money. For 90% of people OpenOffice offers all the functionality that MS Office does.
  • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18"@fantasticflan: yeah... that was a couple of years ago, wasn't it? lets try to keep up with the times."

    And the effects are still felt today, people are still forced to use Microsoft's software because of their abuse of their monopoly position.
  • johlin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18This is great. Open source is better for everyone.
  • nightterror, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16As an IT Director for a local Government, I was spending between $35k and $75k per year on keeping the .doc format alive. Over the last few weeks and for the next month and a half we are testing Open Office to take the place of the upcoming Office 2007. It seems that the only problem that I have run into is the fact that it is open source. One person has decided to question the reliability and security of open source. The typical FUD has already taken hold of ODF. FUD seems to be the only thing keeping ODF on the bench.
  • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16"Even the hardcore OSS fans will admit that openoffice is lagging behind."

    Maybe, but ODF is a document format, independent of the OO.o office suite, hence the downmodding.
  • nTensify, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17"Not feature wise.."

    ODF is an extensible document format (based on XML, after all); feature-wise, it can be anything you want it to be. The same cannot be said of Microsoft's closed Office format [.DOC], which is very inflexible. Embedding into ODF is as simple as embedding into a webpage, any kind of content you'd like really (and yes, that does include executable content, though if you were smart, you wouldn't allow any chance of it being run in your implementation of it).

    So once again:
    Win: ODF.
  • farky, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I'm glad people are realizing we need one open standard instead of all these proprietary standards. It's stupid how it says in the article how Microsoft isn't fully supporting ODF. If most countries and corporations switch to ODF Microsoft is going to regret it.
  • brickbat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12"Microsoft Office Standard Edition full avialable at Best Buy is 399.99....a relative bargain for what you get."

    Not even close to a bargain. In fact - diametrically opposed to a bargain - Relative or not. Try Koffice or OpenOffice. Now they are a bargain.
  • geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14ODF is a great replacement for office. For kicks I tried gnumeric recently and found that it's pretty buggy. Faster, yes, but buggy, I had borders that sometimes disappeared, printing resulted in the first row being cut off.

    Open Office just works and it's free. It's a bit slower but it does what you expect and is relatively bug-free at this point. Oh and ODF file sizes are smaller since an ODF file is really just a zip file containing multiple XML/graphic files with a renamed extension.

    There's good reason why microsoft is running scared. The more MS fights it, the more publicity they give it and the more people use it. You can't blame them - you can't fight a good thing.
  • jgeorgeson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"if you stop and think about each of the individual programs that is included withe the Office Suite you are paying approximately 57 dollars per program."

    Individually purchased Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and Access 2003 are all $230, Outlook 2003 retails for $110. These prices were obtained from the Microsoft Product Information Center at microsoft.com. If I could buy just the one I wanted for $60, I would be for more inclined to use it (please don't refer me to OEM or educational pricing).
  • Skeithy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The less standards Microsoft (or any company, they just happen to have most of them) controls, the better.
  • jopsen, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14I don't like microsoft or .doc either, (no offence) but saying that MS lock's the data... Is not true... the data is saved in binary format, which makes it large and hard to implementat... but binary format also makes it faster to load the document...
    That's a part of the reason why, OpenOffice i slower at file load/save operations than MS Office...

    There's nothing wrong about saying bad thing about Microsoft, but please do at least try to be honest... -thanks...
  • nTensify, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8OpenOffice isn't the only application (suite) that can read and write ODF documents.

    Hell, Microsoft Word can read and write ODF documents (thanks to the Open Source community that drummed up the exporter: http://sourceforge.net/projects/odf-converter ).

    In fact, because web browsers are so well designed to work with (*)ML documents, it would be quite easy to build ODF viewing into your standard web browser as well (no need for special applications or plugins to view documents), making sending ODF documents that much easier.

    And lastly, because ODF is a standard (ISO/IEC 26300), anyone can implement it again, at their whim, making it as fast or as slow as any implementation. OpenOffice is a bit slow simply because it's built around Java (and has a massive amount of overhead to deal with because of that fact), but your plain jane document editor [WordPad/AbiWord] could easily be built to work with ODF documents (all that's needed is ZIP compression support, which is standardized [and on most platforms is built in], and an XML read/write unit, which there are plenty of implementations to choose from [and rolling your own isn't difficult, I've done it for my personal projects, though later I discovered TinyXML and I'll never go back]).
  • WhiskerTheMad, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@ravenofwinter

    "Here is another thought. If MS decides that you have violated their ToS, and yanks your license away from you, what happens to all of your data in their file format?"

    Well, it depends. If you're a medium-to-large business with all your data tied up in their proprietary format, you die. By the time you've got the mess sorted out, you've lost customers, business opportunities, customer confidence, the list goes on.

    How do you think people/businesses would react if Wal-Mart were to say "We can't sell anything for the next couple of weeks; we've got this licensing issue..."

    "if you want to access it, there's no reason you can't buy a license"

    Well, actually, they can sue you and make you a public whipping boy, like they did the Ernie Ball company *even if you've paid up for all your licenses.* Also, let's assume the medium-to-large business thing again. $600-$700 per seat for 200-1000 machines? $120,000 to $700,000? I don't know what kind of business you work for, but I've never worked anywhere where that kind of money was just tossed around (except by executives, who are a special/stupid case).

    Also, what if they decide to do it again? Do you just keep paying? How often do you make that kind of outlay, even as CEO, before the Board of Directors rams a size 12 up your ass and throws you out?

    "or possibly sue them for denying you access to your data"

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
    I'm assuming that you weren't serious. I can't think of many people who would want to throw themselves into a pit full of Microsoft's bloodthirsty attack lawyers. Plus, by the time you got it sorted out, it would months later, most likely years. Can your business survive that long without all of it's data? Short answer: no.

    "they can't do anything to specifically lock you out. That'd just be insane on their part."

    They can, they have, and they will. Why do you think OSS and open standards are garnering so much attention? Who wants to be beholden to the whims of a rapacious convicted monopolist? They've sued schools, shut down businesses, and strong-armed governments to get their way; what the hell makes you think they'll play nice with *you?*
  • avhell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"Now I do use OO at home, but that's because I don't feel like dropping 400 dollars on the product either, but I do use MO at work. Open documents are a great way to ensure that the document you create at home will work on your moms PC, or your jobs PC. But if all software was provided for free, we wouldn't have teams of engineers and programmers out there actually making new software. People do have rent, house payments, car payments and families to care for. Now it would be great if all products were free, and no one starved, and everyone had a roof over their heads, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Neither is Microsoft going to give away their software and operating systems away for free."

    Strangely, alot of people produce FOSS that are not paid for it, and yet continue to do it anyway. It's the heart and passion that goes into the software that really makes a difference. Linus' Minix sure did a pretty good job for software produced without a monetary goal in mind! So this is not really correct. There is software provided for free, and there are (will always be?) teams of engineers and programmers making new software. This is apparently an alien idea to those fans of the MS business model. Here is a good reference in case you need one: http://www.sourceforge.net

    Here is another thought. If MS decides that you have violated their ToS, and yanks your license away from you, what happens to all of your data in their file format? Technically it is locked away, with no legal recourse for you to recover it. No thanks. I'll keep my data free from even the possibility. It might not be probable, but why take the chance? To gain what? You forgot to factor that price into your bargain.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Dugg to show my support.
  • bloodmoney, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11I use OpenOffice at home, but I gotta say it, the new version of Word is really damn sweet.
  • daven1986, on 10/12/2007, -11/+16you mean "bloated" and also office 12 addresses this issue, a file of 120kb in office 2003 is about 30kb in office 12, and this is small enough for me.
  • diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4MS-Office cannot be free, but it would nice for it to be cheaper. $200 tops.
  • timalmond, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Even the hardcore OSS fans will admit that openoffice is lagging behind."

    True. Lots of products lag behind. Lenovo PCs are more technologically advanced than Dells. But people buy Dells because they can't justify the extra cost of a Lenovo.

    Same with OOo. A spokesman at Microsoft said that OOo was 10 years behind. My spreadsheet needs haven't changed in 10 years, so why do I need something more advanced?
  • brickbat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Openoffice isn't perfect. Perhaps MS Office is better. I got sick of MS BS. Saving ODF is slow. It is true. For me, it is good enough - Overall OO exceeds my needs.
  • Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7"The main reason in my mind why ODF it is better than .DOC is that it's not as blotted, making the file smaller."

    As for ODF bloat, keep in mind that they're renamed .zip files. Uncompress that, and you'll see their true sizes. I don't call compressing reducing bloat btw. But I also don't mind "bloat" when we're still often dealing with less than 1 MB files, and this is hardly the reason behind its adoption these days.
  • sremick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I don't think file size matters anymore. What matters is the use of open standards vs. proprietary formats."

    While standard formats are definitely a big issue, file size is also still a big issue. It is not fair to assume that everyone is running behind broadband any more than it's safe to assume everyone is using Microsoft Word. In this modern age, more and more non-PC devices are connecting to the internet, and many are connecting in very low-bandwidth ways. Sometimes my only way to get online is over an analog dialup link using my cellular phone... giving me the speed of approximately a 9600 bps modem. If I need to download an email attachment, file size is VERY important.

    PDAs, cell phones, etc... even normal users on broadband, multiplied enough and file size still adds up. I also manage a corporate network, and granted the individual user might not care about the difference between 50K and 100K, but multiply that by thousands of users and it's an issue. File storage concerns and bandwidth concerns come into play.
  • enclave2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I've switch. And I even own a copy of Office 2003(yay for college and legal cheap software!)
    I switched because a friend of mine needed office on their computer. They aren't terribly wealthy, nor are they a student, nor do they have a excess (ok, any) knowledge of computer troubleshooting. So I decided to put OpenOffice on their computer. They aren't doing anything too instense. A word doc here, a powerpoint presentation there.
    Install was a snap, and everything worked perfectly.
    But on my way home from their house I realised, eventually, they were going to have a question about the program. And I need to know the answer. So I installed it. I plan on making it my full time office suite. But I've kept Office 2003 on, just in case.
  • timalmond, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You're right. $399 is 6-7 video games.

    Choosing OpenOffice.org means that you can afford to own them.
  • spyres, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5----OpenOffice is a bit slow simply because it's built around Java (and has a massive amount of overhead to deal with because of that fact),

    No, not true. Java is used heavily for "Base" and is used for some of the Wizards, but that's about it. It's in no way "built around java". That's just simply purely wrong.
  • ishmal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I think that an open format is a wonderful idea. But I think that the spec itself needs a lot of work. In so many places, the information needed to implement a reader or writer is either too vague or simply not there. For example, the section on coordinate spaces and transforms only takes a few paragraphs. It should take at least two full chapters. And if it's not in the spec, then officially it doesn't exist. Third party information is not an option. The upcoming ODF 1.1 spec does not appear to remedy the situation.

    I'm not saying this because I don't like ODF. Far from it, I am a big fan. The reason I have encountered this is that I am writing the ODF .odg output module for an open source drawing program.
  • serithchylde, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Apparently Avhell you missed the point. I did not state that some engineers and programmers are willing to provide their software for free, i said ALL. If ALL software and hardware was provided for free, people would stop working in that field, because they aren't able to put food on their table. It doesn't have to be a Microsoft policy of marketing. Everyone wants to make some moeny somehow. Just because you can make an OS, or office program on your spare time from your regular day job doesn't mean that you still don't have a day job.

    Hell I myself in am in th planning stages of a software project that I may go ahead and provide for free. However I do have a day job, and it's a project I am working on and want to create for my own use, then share it with other people that would possibly like to use the same program. But if I wanted to base a living off of programming and engineering I will ensure that I get paid for that living. And not hope that I get donations from people that might like the project.
  • detrate, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8you can't say the same for the way OO encodes excel files though.
  • matt.rubin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1heh its relaly not about the format but compatibility between computers. So can 95% of the computers out there read ODF? no. Its kinda like laserdisk, it was better quality, better features, better technology but nobody had it.
  • serithchylde, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Microsoft Office Standard Edition full avialable at Best Buy is 399.99, that is approximatley 57 dollars per program. That is not OEM, or education versions of the software. Yes individually purchased they are much more, but purchasing the Suite, which is what I was referring to is a relative bargain for what you get.
  • Web_Weasel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've wondered the same thing myself. Appleworks and Pages are OK but they're no Ooo.
  • radiofrequency, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@serithchylde -

    Microsoft Office Standard Edition 2003 includes Word 2003, Excel 2003, Outlook 2003, and PowerPoint 2003. That's $100/program, not $57.
  • Web_Weasel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+190% might be a bit of a conservative estimate.
  • pauleric, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Ask this guy about the concept of security through obscurity.
    http://www.schneier.com/
  • avhell, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@serithchylde: "Apparently Avhell you missed the point. I did not state that some engineers and programmers are willing to provide their software for free, i said ALL. If ALL software and hardware was provided for free, people would stop working in that field, because they aren't able to put food on their table."

    Perhaps I should clarify. There are some people who continue to produce software for free (Not hardware, I don't know why you snuck that in). No money in it for them, they just do. Now, does it matter to those people what others may/may not do because of no money? Nope. They keep producing free software because they *gasp* enjoy doing it! If ALL software was provided for free, people WOULD CONTINUE to work in that field. In fact, they are doing so RIGHT NOW, and have been for a long time.

    My point is that you are making a statement that holds no water: "If ALL software and hardware was provided for free, people would stop working in that field..."

    This is simply not true, as evidenced by many people who do such work for no money. For another interesting reference: http://www.linux.org/people/linus_post.html

    @ravenofwinter: Read your EULA and ToS from your office programs again.
  • martums, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0http://www.zdnet.co.uk/print/?TYPE=story&AT=39280051-39020330t-10000007c
    eye-friendly printer view
    :o)
  • serithchylde, on 10/12/2007, -10/+9Well, yes office is overly expensive, but if you stop and think about each of the individual programs that is included withe the Office Suite you are paying approximately 57 dollars per program. A single video game costs 50 to 60 dollars. If you don't get Nero bundled with an optical drive you are paying 40 to 80 dollars. Everyone bitches about how expensive M.O is, but what about Adobe? Every couple of years a new version of their products hit the shelves. Each one of those programs does one specific task. Those start at 200 and can go up to 1100 dollars for a single task program. At least the Office Suite is including at a minimum 7 pieces of distinct programs, that each will do their own thing. So before you start bitching at how expensive Office is, think about what you are getting for that cost and you really are getting a relative bargain.

    Now I do use OO at home, but that's because I don't feel like dropping 400 dollars on the product either, but I do use MO at work. Open documents are a great way to ensure that the document you create at home will work on your moms PC, or your jobs PC. But if all software was provided for free, we wouldn't have teams of engineers and programmers out there actually making new software. People do have rent, house payments, car payments and families to care for. Now it would be great if all products were free, and no one starved, and everyone had a roof over their heads, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Neither is Microsoft going to give away their software and operating systems away for free.

    Stop being a fanboi for either side and just be happy that with an Open Document format you can read that resume' you have created to get that new high paying job on a Mac, PC or Linux.
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