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83 Comments
- RedLion, on 11/07/2007, -13/+70sure schestowitz, Microsoft pays people to attack you, yeah yeah...
but please, let me ask you a question first: did you at least read the article?
this is what it says: "I think I’ll accept it: FUD enrages me and MS certainly are not hiring me to add any pro-MS FUD, just to correct any errors I see. " as you could read Microsoft will pay this guy to correct errors, not for astroturfing.
Please, stop making up stuff, if somebody posts lame comment using your name on usenet it doesn't mean that it's "paid by M$" to attack you, maybe it's people pissed by your endless attacks to microsoft (you know... not everybody hates microsoft like you do, like there are people that love apple there are also people that love microsoft). - dxprog, on 10/12/2007, -5/+46I dugg you down just to watch that huge thing get sucked up...
- Kanna, on 10/12/2007, -8/+44Digg loves to bash Microsoft, so why bother RTFA when you can get dugg up for saying "***** MS"?
- sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33That comment was ridiculously long, if you've got *that* much to say then post it as it's own article. Or does the chip that the Microsoft agents planted in your brain prevent you from doing that?
- catalysis, on 11/07/2007, -5/+32Someone forgot their OCD meds today.
- inactive, on 12/26/2008, -9/+33@schestowitz
I hate to say that, but you're a tinfoil wearing conspiracy nut, that believes that Microsoft is paying people to attack you. Here is a quote by yourself "(...) I wish it weren't the truth, but I'm being targeted." It's funny how you don't even read most of the articles that you're digging, instead you just jump into any MS-related article and insert your silly, taken out of context quotes.
I hope that more people will notice this and ignore your crazy comments. You're really putting the Linux community in a bad light, and true Linux users are sure to thank you for your disservice.
/ Rant finished - JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -7/+30OMG. Microsoft hired a balanced, neutral party to professionally edit Wikipedia!!!
Alert the press. A professional on the subject just edited a wikipedia page. Something must be done right now otherwise in the near future other wiki articles may be professionally edited. - Caiman, on 10/12/2007, -9/+31^^Oh Noes, Microsoft am teh evil. They is attackings me personally. Arghhh.
WTF? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -15/+33Microsoft really DOES need to hire an expert on standards, but to educate their project managers and the entire IE team.
- knupso, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21schestowitz is to Linux as Pat Robertson is to christanity.
He drives away more people than he converts. - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19It wouldn't be unthinkable that you post crap under your own name, so that you can then say you're being targeted by MS 'posting under' your name. It's not a new tactic used by people who want to discredit someone else.
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Did anyone actually bother to read the article? There was stuff in the OOXML article that was untrue, so Microsoft hired someone to clean it up.
Example:
"Just scanning quickly the Wikipedia entry for OOXML, I see one example straight away: The OOXML specification requires conforming implementations to accept and understand various legacy office applications . But the conformance section to the ISO standard (which is only about page four) specifies conformance in terms of being able to accept the grammar, use the standard semantics for the bits you implement, and document where you do something different. The bits you don’t implement are no-one’s business. So that entry is simply wrong. The same myth comes up in the form “You have to implement all 6000 pages or Microsoft will sue you.” Are we idiots?" - Propapanda, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13You are completely bat-***** insane and that was one of the most interesting tin-foil hat posts I have ever read.
Thank you for putting a smile on my face. - coredump0x01, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20I like how you got dugg down for telling the truth, makes me ashamed to be on Vista right now. IE has horrible support for web standards, ask any web developer about the headaches we get while making pages for IE. And no, IE7 isn't much better either.
/waits for MS apologists to digg me down. - krellor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9"Largest company on earth". Bwahahaha. Not hardly.
Ten largest countries in the world: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12085872/ No microsoft here.
It's just more fun to hate on a company you perceive to be a Goliath. Besides, the crap that MS has pulled pales compared to Sonys all I want for xmas is a psp site. That was pure crap. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10"VistaBaby" is so excited about paying for Vista he logged on today to create his account and comment on this important subject!
http://digg.com/users/VistaBaby/news/dugg
Bill? - finite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Yep. You're an idiot. That, or someone employed by Microsoft to spam Digg."
I'd say VistaBaby might be both, except some of the comments are so over the top that I suspect they actually might be an anti-MS troll trying to satirize the shills. That, or a shill who just wants us to think they're too extreme to be a real shill... - uggidi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I liked FF compared to IE6, but now I feel IE7 is good enough. I do not know from a developer's side, but as a user I like it. I don't know the internal politics, but since MS is awake now, it will try hard not to sleep. The prolem with FF is it takes a lot of time to load. Anyways, FF vs IE is an entirely different thread!
- RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5VistaBaby: oh please, i doubt you really trust in the things you are saying. the fact that you registered just not long ago, the fact that you choose that nick and also immediately choose that avatar (usually people choose their avatars days after registering) just make me think that maybe you're one of the microsoft haters that tries to disguise itself as a fanboy. quit this, please.
- finite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7If they *start* buying?!!! Are you from the past?
You do realize MS Office is by far the #1 Office suite, and file format lockin is the first reason most novices can think of for why they can't switch, right? - echoic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Break out the tinfoil hats! Nutter
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7You're a fruitcake.
(P.S. This message is not sponsored by Microsoft) - kernelhappy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I personally think they did the right thing given the circumstances. If they edited the article directly everyone would have screamed, if they hired someone outside to make the edits directed by them and got caught, everyone would have had a cow. Instead they took the high road and recruited the help of someone who is knowledgeable and respected and is known to have enough integrity to remove the misinformation and bias from the article. To me this says Microsoft firmly believes in their product and is not resorting to underhanded methods to push it. This is a good thing for wikipedia too.
The only problem I see is that it sets a precedent where other companies are probably going to start doing this and eventually we'll see many wikipedia "auditors" who operate much in the same way political lobbyists do, that is to say they go where the money is. - bias, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10"But there is also a sea of crap being produced, and if offends me a little to see the ISO process get slung with this kind of mud. I suspect that many technical reviewers for National Bodies will take a dim view of vague or stupid claims."
ODF is open and standardized, OOXML is open, standardized and from Microsoft?. You open source fanboys need to stop contradicting yourselves, if you think OOXML is bad because it's from Microsoft then there must be problem on the "Standardization", if there's a problem with "Standardization" then ODF obviously has problems. - machinder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Really, "VistaBaby", you're excited about buying Vista? I'm surprised, I kinda got that maybe you were on the fence a bit. Of course, you're reading all of those comments with an open mind, of course?
Seriously: I was all set to buy Vista, since I'd been thinking of moving to MCE 2005 for a while now until I heard that support for the Theatrix 550 chip doesn't exist yet. Pretty darn popular chip, guys. In a lot of cards ... - keije, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6How is any of that relevant? You experienced "this", what is "this", it's for people like you that RTFA acronym was invented, none of the stuff you mentioned are what is happening here. MS has many flaws, there is no need to make up more.
- drjones78, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Well, with Firefox 3.. Firefox will pass the Acid test.
Strange how the most dominant browser on the market (made by a corperation with billions of dollars and armies of programmers0 will also be the one with the most shortcomings and lack of standards support. Opera, Firefox (and I beleive safari) will both be 100% standards compliant - finite, on 10/12/2007, -26/+29Congratulations, that was without a doubt the lengthiest digg comment I've ever dugg up. Thank you for posting!
Anybody seeking more information about the OpenOffice ODF vs Microsoft OOXML issue should definitely read Rob Weir's blog. These two posts are a good place to start:
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/01/how-to-hire-guillaume-portes.html
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/guillaume-portes-redux.html - Phearce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Astroturfing is bad enough in the real world, but has serious implications on the web since it's much more difficult to determine a person (or web site's) sincerity. The point here is that Microsoft is (remarkably) doing something somewhat the opposite of astroturfing -- they're hiring an expert to weigh in on a matter. On Wikipedia no less. Granted, they're going to seek out an expert that's sympathetic to their side of the issue, but wouldn't you do the same? Plus, they didn't require a non-disclosure agreement -- that indicates they didn't feel they had anything to hide.
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Personally I think it's rather clear that some regular Digg user has created this VistaBaby account to inject some irony into this digg. It's way too overt to be anything but some humour ;)
VistaBaby, for the sake of all the people above who are having heart attacks right now, expose yourself... - CurtHowland, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And I expect checked, at least daily, for "variations".
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I'll be honest, I haven't had any problems with IE7 rendering pages I've worked on (with IE6 there were dozens). Then again, I'm not making horrendously complex layouts and using niche functions - I expect there's more room for error with those things.
- kavaliro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@VistaBaby:
Yep. You're an idiot.
That, or someone employed by Microsoft to spam Digg. - cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4jmlane,
" My views on this may not be completely accurate, so I'd invite anyone seeing fault in it to comment... "
Okay, with all due respect, you are working with incomplete information. I will try to not go all Vistababy on you though.
Vista is an improvement over XP, the graphics engine is only part of the changes made to bring it to market.
You think it is based on a "recycled XP core", but you should be aware that it was changed to be based on the
more solid core of Windows 2003 Server about mid-way thru the Longhorn project, which itself was the result of a significant overhaul of the NT core to address many of the security concerns (and complaints) from MS business partners who make up the real souce of most of the companies revenue. Along the way, they also decided to overhaul the core components and services of the OS, both to make them more secure, and to provide much needed updates in functionality to address existing and future hardware needs.
A lot of people seem to have gotten bent out of shape over Directx10 only being available on Vista and beyond, thinking it is a deliberate attempt by MS to lock out their previous OSes. But that is also working with incomplete info; much of the changes described above that affect the way Vista works, that also enable support for the ideas behind DX10, would not be possible on XP or earlier, simply because XP was not designed with sending the bulk of the graphical processing thru a GPU. The effort to make such a change on an OS that was already starting to show its age was not worth as much as being able to create a fresh design on a more stable framework.
Keep in mind that DX10 is not just a MS solution, the graphics makers (led by Nvidia and ATI) had to see that such a technological change also makes sense, not just for Windows games, but for graphical rendering as a whole. If you think DirectX10 is just for games, or that other OSes will not be able to take advantage of the same capabilities in the underlying hardware, then you underestimate all the companies working with MS to bring this about. You may well see some of the technology (that doesn't require the underlying OS being capable of 3D rendering) show up in other places; and DX10 supporting cards may also find use on other OSes that are capable of 3D rendering. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Schestofartz: did you intend to show Linux's copy-and-paste capabilities with this post?
Moron. - spooq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4We have something in common. I now want to castrate you as well.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Astroturfing, as this is called, doesn't get me upset when it comes to wikipedia because it's open and pretty unbiased. I much prefer that than Microsoft astroturfing a "People For Open Standards" group which spews out Microsoft propaganda with no rebuttal. With wikipedia, Microsoft can propagandize as much as they want, their propaganda will be edited to the point where it's tame and facts of the opposing side will be presented and the reader can best judge for him/herself what the truth is. I see the agribusiness (Monsanto et al) using Wikipedia nowadays and I welcome this new form of astroturfing because they will never win this battle. I have followed them for awhile, they used to fund astroturfing groups and sue people vie underhanded means to silence freedom of speech and information. Wikipedia keeps them in check. They are taking the bait, thinking they can monopolize information in this new medium but they are just giving Wikipedia more attention, which is exactly what they don't want. Wikipedia stands for truth, they don't like the truth. I have RSS feeds for wikipedia entries, monitoring the industry. As soon as they spew forth their propaganda, my RSS alerts alert me and I make sure to edit it to tame it down, put in rebuttals with links and references. They spend millions to astroturf on Wikipedia and it takes me 5 minutes to neutralize their agenda.
I think we should all welcome companies giving credence to Wikipedia, just make sure we keep them in check. - finite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I don't know if you're joking, but in fact there is no mention here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Philanthropy
... of any of the stuff here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation#Criticisms
(And imho both sections should probably mention that he gets avoid paying taxes while using his (and buffet's) fortunes to continue buying up companies all over the world, on the grounds that the profits will eventually be used for "philanthropy" by some perverse definition of the term. Misanthropy is more like it.)
I admit I am pulling a dick "Rick Jelliffe" move by pointing this out while not fixing it myself. I don't really care enough, though. - CurtHowland, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5What worries me is not that MS would hire someone openly (which is a very good thing to do IMHO) to fix the entry on _their_ specification, the worry is that MS would hire someone to alter _someone_else's_ specification entry.
- spraguep, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2yes
- Frost9999, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@Nanite - You actually think Microsoft is the largest company on Earth? It's not even in the top 100:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/full_list/ - AmpalayaNut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Paying someone to correct "errors" in Wiki just does not seem right. I thought this article perhaps explained Wiki's position best:
http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2007012401426NWMSSW
> "Microsoft landed in the Wikipedia doghouse after it offered to pay a blogger to change
> technical articles on the community-produced encyclopedia site.
>
> "Although Wikipedia is known as the encyclopedia that anyone can tweak, founder Jimmy
> Wales and his cadre of volunteer editors, writers and moderators have blocked public-
> relations firms, campaign workers and anyone else perceived as having a conflict of
> interest from posting entries. So paying for Wikipedia copy is a definite no-no..."
IMHO, Microsoft's action is similar to a sports team paying an umpire additional to ensure a fair game. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1[quote]DX10, would not be possible on XP or earlier, simply because XP was not designed with sending the bulk of the graphical processing thru a GPU.[/quote]
*****. A *single* 3D app in XP can use as much "graphical processing" as it wants. You're basically saying that unless we use Vista, we can't use DX10 hardware, and that's just not true. DX10 hardware will even work in Macs. Do you even understand the difference between DX and D3D and OpenGL?
As a matter of fact, if game devs weren't such script kiddies, unlike the few who develop engines from scratch like John Carmack, they could use OpenGL & DX10 hardware in XP and their games could be easily ported to Macs, the Wii & PS3, and maybe even Linux. OpenGL is cross-platform AND works with DX10, D3D10 is a trap. - greatblackowl, on 10/12/2007, -17/+17I don't think Microsoft gives a $hit what you say about their OS. They really have no reason to do that. Think about it:
Bill Gates, the Chairman of Microsoft, is worth over $50 billion. Alone. What does he (or his company) care if some little guys on the internet bash his operating system. At the very worst, every digg user, for instance, could switch to linux, Mac, BSD, whatever.
And that's what, maybe 30,000 users? 50,000? A fraction of a percent for Microsoft.
And no, I'm not an "M$ shill" out to get you. I'm a college student. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1[quote]Why do you need to worry about some Microsoft rep planting positive comments about a product? Is it going to force you to buy it just because "everyone else" thinks it's good?[/quote]
No, it's going to force me to buy it because all these idiots are going to buy it and maintain it as a standard. Windows control of the market is the same as if a political party had control over the government. For MOST people, not even just the idiots, we have no choice but to use Microsoft products and products designed for Windows.
When was the last time you were in an office? I mean, unless you're talking about Hollywood, all you're going to find in the typical office is Windows PCs. Do realize that to work in such a place you must know Windows and Windows apps? So what happens when they all upgrade to Vista? That's right, you will HAVE TO as well. - coredump0x01, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3@VistaBaby
I honestly became nauseous when I read your comment, I can't believe this ***** is being spun on here. I've seen some shills on digg but you sir (bot?) take the cake for making it glaringly obvious. It is people like you that are going to make me stop coming here. Please keep this dribble off of digg. Oh, and I will use whatever OS I damn well feel like, tough luck if it's a non-Microsoft one. As for Vista? I wouldn't even bother pirating that crap after my "experience" with RTM.
Oh, and welcome to my blocklist, you'll like it there. - stapler123, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2 I don't think thats quite what this article is about.
But, I have to say I was one of the people excited about the zune before it's launch. Many of my friends were too. When we all found out the neat parts were fundamentally broken that went away.
I just ask that people be carefull in calling anybody with a not hatefull view of microsoft a shill. - radiofrequency, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5This explains the fawning overtone of Bill Gates' bio on the site. Bought and paid for...
- testcase, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5Wow, Microsoft was actually getting a fair hearing on this page until two things happened to spoil the run;
--- schestowitz went insane and did the longest tirade comment dump in the history of Digg and
--- VistaBaby, Microsoft Employee # 8907987 created an account so they could astroturf us with nauseatingly saccharine paid announcements about IE7 and Vista
I can log off now, satisfied I've got my money's worth. I feel like I've just come back from a day at the zoo. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7"ODF is open and standardized, OOXML is open, standardized and from Microsoft?. You open source fanboys need to stop contradicting yourselves, if you think OOXML is bad because it's from Microsoft then there must be problem on the "Standardization", if there's a problem with "Standardization" then ODF obviously has problems."
First of all, you get nowhere for throwing the Fanboy word around. Second of all, there's no problem with standardization, this is why we create standards bodies like ISO to manage standards. Standards are good, they allow interoperability, innovation, competition. However, there is such a thing as a bad standard, and OOXML Is an example of that. It's too lengthy, and it contains a lot of legacy compatibility drivel that's completely useless to any other implementation outside of Microsoft's own products. OOXML is an example of a BAD standard, one that should not be accepted as a standard, and instead Microsoft should conform to the already existing ODF standard, as it is already more mature (INCLUDING Microsoft Office Support), and it is generally much better understood than Microsoft's lengthy standard.
ODF has its own problems too, but they're so far much easier to manage than Microsoft's. This is why IBM chose to defend ODF over OOXML, and why it's likely ISO will not accept OOXML as a standard. This article is directly pointing out that Microsoft's trying to change public opinion by confusing the facts, something they've been accused of (and for that matter, proved to have done) in the past, that's it. Microsoft's astroturfing Wikipedia, which makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. -
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