What is Digg?67 Comments
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14I don't think I've ever seen anybody write an article about Geronimo, so I'll digg just for that.
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8well no need to be mean to him. actually J2EE is dead because technically now it's JEE, so everybody here is wrong.
- rondeth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Tomcat is simply a JSP/servlet engine...Geronimo's aim is to make an OSS J2EE-certified application server, which has to include such things as EJB containers (etc). Other OSS 'full' J2EE containers includes JBoss and ObjectWeb's Jonas...btw, Geronimo allows either Jetty or Tomcat to be plugged-in as the servlet container. Cheers.
[whoops, alot of people answered there] - deBSefyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Tomcat is just a "web container" (Servlet and JSP part of J2EE) whereas Geronimo is a full J2EE implementation that includes EJB spec and I guess something else I'm not sure of. AFAIK Geronimo uses Tomcat as a "web container".
- rondeth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@gharding: What are the alternatives in the large-scale enterprise development space?
- ziggy101, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9J2EE is made up of a large number of different technologies, EJB, JMS, Servlets etc... so to say you need to learn J2EE is a little too general. Actually there is signs of a backlash against the complexity of J2EE (specifically the EJB part). Technologies such as Spring and Hibernate are gaining in popularity and many developers are using these, in conjunction with Tomcat for simple Application hosting removing the need for the more complex and in many cases very expensive app servers. Like any set of technologies, you pick the parts that are useful to you and dont get forced into the "everything must use EJB's to be scalable" story which in many cases is imply not true.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9If someone decided to use J2EE to make a "Photoshop clone", they may want to consider a new profession far far away from computers.
- cmdrNacho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8whats the difference between this and tomcat
- rondeth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I'm sure I'm not the only one reading your post with a sense of wonderment and/or disdain...my team churns out a large and complex (domain-wise) application just fine with Eclipse and related tools. If the free tools simply aren't doing the trick for your team, perhaps the low-priced MyEclipse Enterprise Workbench ($29.95) would prove useful. Anyhow, good luck.
- aslocal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The bias of Java on Digg is amusing. Hey guess what? Goto dice, and type "j2ee", now go type "ruby" ... which one should you learn? Enterprise organizations use Java, and thats not going to change any time soon.
BTW: I use Ruby as an obvious example, since it's being touted as the next coming of Christ. - gharding, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The only parts of J2EE that Tomcat handles are Servlets and JSP. Geronimo (which includes Tomcat, I believe), extends this out to the entire J2EE platform (mostly, I believe, by integrating a bunch of opensource apps [such as Tomcat, and probably other Apache Group software]).
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6technically spring supplements J2EE. it's more Spring vs. EJB.
- just4fun, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Geronimo is an App Server where as Tomcat is a servlet engine.
- brentzilla, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9The digg down button next to comments was made for ignorant trolls like you. J2EE is valuable in the web development space(and by apps there is an implied "web app" since most people know J2EE is a web technology...unlike you) and you make a comment about a Photoshop clone. Give me a break.
- SanderSpies, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Of course I have heard of Geronimo as an J2EE server, however I still need to see it in practice and use it myself. J2EE still has an overall bad name, because in the past it was a pain in the ass to use. With Java EE 5 and EJB 3 things seem to be a whole lot nicer.
Questions that come to mind however:
- What are the strong point of Geronimo above JBoss?
- Can you use JSR-168 Portlets in Geronimo?
- What about JSR 170 content management repository in Geronimo?
If someone could clarify, thanks. - bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4what the hell are you talking about? egos?
- tallguy78, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I may get -100000 digg for saying this but using full J2EE like JBOSS, Weblogic, is such a waste of CPU/Memory. Most of the company uses those only because they need such thing called "support" (aka "blaming finger if your system is down"). Back in the "hey day" of EJB, we were required to use heavy web servers like these but now with new EJB 3.0 spec and current Hibernate w/ Spring Transaction, you do not need those heavy weights! just a normal jsp engine like tomcats will do. If you digg me down, it only shows how little you know about J2EE and the support of open source. Anything they got, there's someone who has good open source solution to it. Anyways, most won't understand what I'm saying so, digg me down.
- anon52, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6jEEz, I must be missing something here. J2EE can be used in all sorts of applications, not just web-facing. I've worked extensively with JMS and other messaging protocols that don't give a rat's cajones about webs.
I'm beginning to believe that the digg readership doesn't know anything about legacy, or desktop, or dedicated applications. Perhaps some of the estEEmed commentators could bother to read some of the freely available documentations, including Wikipedia. - Wiggles2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Oops, you're right. Time to stop sniffing glue.
- rickcarson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This was a *terrible* article. The sole good thing they did was mention JAX-WS. Annotations good, XML bad.
Firstly, Java EE 5 came out in May, superceding J2EE 1.4. Anyone wanting to learn 'Enterprise Java' should skip the screaming horrors that was J2EE and procede directly to EE 5, do not pass go, do not collect 200 xml files.
For that alone we can conclude that someone at IBM was asleep at the wheel when this got submitted/accepted.
Other glaring problems: in the context of 'Enterprise Java' container has a completely different meaning than what they describe in the sidebar. What they are talking about in the sidebar is a 'collection', not a 'container'.
I'd better stop before I burst a vessel. :D Someone hand me the aspirin, and someone please hit IBM with a cluestick.
If Geronimo doesn't support Java EE 5, then this is a good reason to avoid it, in favour of tools that do. - ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2J2EE (aka JEE) and Spring are not mutually exclusive. Spring is usually used together with J2EE. Hell, you can even use EJB with Spring if you wanted to (though EJB is necessary only in rare cases). Spring simply makes Java/J2EE easier.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@kolektiv: Are we reading the same article?
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4jboss is bloated. for most cases tomcat is better.
- DukunSakti, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2June 15, 2006: (Press Release) IBM Executive Declares Web 2.0 Technology to Drive New Business Applications
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19821.wss - hyness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2As much fun as it is to hate on JBoss, their AS is very modular. Sure, if you just download and run the server in default mode, it is very bloated. However, it is not very hard to slim it down and then add Enterprise services as needed.
- collintheweak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Meaningless?
Just because RoR is shamefully easy to start with doesn't mean that with time you cannot build up to some very sophisticated stuff.
Just like anything else you have to take time to learn. - deBSefyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2> Can you use JSR-168 Portlets in Geronimo?
You'll need a portlet container for that... JBoss (as an organization) has a Portal Server but it doesn't come with JBoss AS (Application Server). Geronimo (as an AS) doen't aim to be a Portal Server. Apache has JetSpeed portal server for that purpose.
I wonder, would it be possible to deploy JBoss Portal on Geronimo... something tells me "Yes".
> What about JSR 170 content management repository in Geronimo?
Again, you'll need a JCR for that... Apache has Jackrabbit which you can use.
Actually, it would be interesting to start a Geronimo + JetSpeed + Jackrabbit and maybe something else (like a bunch of cool portlets) integration project... - anon52, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, it is tiny on my 1600x1200 screen. However, I'd rather have the orginal in some close-to-print format and optionally expand it via the browser for on-sceen reading. Most of IBM's alphaworks (whoops, devworks) is pretty dense, so having it in the large/screaming fonts is a bit absurd.
- marlow4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't think Geronimo has any advantages over JBoss, in fact I just migrated a couple weeks ago. JBoss used to be a bit shakier on Open Source grounds since it was a private corporation backing it and not the Apache Foundation, but now that they're owned by Red Hat (publicly traded and with a long history as champions of open source) I feel like I can trust them more.
Technically speaking, Geronimo is being a lot slower in bringing out the new EJB3 stuff, which as you mention makes Java EE development so much nicer it really is worth switching app servers for (at least I did so for that). I also find JBoss easier to administer despite not having used it as long, and the documentation on JBoss' site (and integration with their other products) is really as good as anything you'd get from Oracle or any other professional company.
On Geronimo's side, it has a pluggable architecture that should make it easy for sites to build a custom server out of only the components they want to have included, which can make it more lightweight. That is lightweight at run-time though, since there is development work involved in pruning the app server. Geronimo also has IBM backing so there are probably cases where that could outweigh the slower pace of development.
I recommend trying both out (hey, they're free), but I am far happier with JBoss personally (and this from a long-time JBoss hold out). - databasecowboy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8who decides? IBM! They get things right once and a while....
- MoeB, on 10/12/2007, -12/+13"Enterprise Edition (J2EE) is an important standard that's here to stay"
really? who decided this? how can you say it's here to stay? lets let time be the judge of that. - SanderSpies, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@deBSefyer
Integrating all those Apache projects would be pretty cool, it would be a big plus in my book. JSR 170 should also get way more attention, it has the chance to give Java cms systems a big plus above other cms systems: standardization.
Apache Jackrabbit still has some inconveniences, as it cannot delete/replace NodeTypes. Currently I'm trying to create (in my spare free time) my own cms system based on Jackrabbit, but this is still in very early stages. - hypnotiq, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Web 2.0 is just a fancy way for people to talk about "GUI" in their web browsers. The IBM technology is so far beyond "web 2.0" ***** I think you would eat your words just knowing 5% of it.
So what, you want IBM to develop a social networking SOA ??? ROFL! - theGrue, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3IBM needs to embrace some Web 2.0... Am I the only one who can't stand a tiny font like that anymore?
- marlow4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think ucg's point was that once things become complex, RoR is just as complex as Java, not that it is incapable of achieving arbitrarily complex tasks. The "10 times more productive" claims run out of steam pretty quickly once intricate customisation becomes necessary; from that point, Java or Ruby, you need capable coders.
- coding, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Open source certainly dominates for the Java language right now. I can put together amazing applications in a very short time compared to about 3 years ago. So many ready made components are based on some kind of open source license. And this certainly makes it easy to replace any full blown application server.
- ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think people are anti-Java for the same reason people are anti-Linux. Java can be complicated and difficult. But if you spend enough time learning it and doing research on the available technologies, you can create solutions in ways that simple and easy. Java requires more time to get acquainted with than some other platforms, but once you are acquainted with it, it is pretty powerful and if you choose the right tools it is not as difficult as it may have seemed in the beginning.
With something like Visual Studio .Net or RoR you can get started quickly, but that quickly becomes meaningless once you want to do more complicated things. - rfquinn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Saved for my Java class next term.
- happyfappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Get Firefox and you can change the size of the font to be as large as you want.
- happyfappy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Ruby and Java (the platform) are not mutually exclusive. There are a number of initiatives to put Ruby on the JVM.
It is, however, meaningful to compare Ruby and Java (the language); n that department, Ruby blows Java away, imho. - cowlike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Tomcat is not an EJB container so you can't really compare it to JBoss.
- hypnotiq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2That has to be the most ignorant statement I have seen in quite some time. You obviously don't know much about e-commerce.
And what do you propose as an alternative? .net? lol - kolektiv, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2For sure if you are looking at statistical likelihood of getting a job then Java is a good bet. However, I would guess that the bias against Java on this site is likely to be result of the perception that Java jobs tend to be small cog in big machine jobs - working on small parts of enterprise systems, which can tend to be boring. Also a lot of Java jobs are contract positions, reinforcing the image of a bored coder for hire cranking out Java on soulless projects for big corporates.
I'm not saying this perception is correct, but it may well be more correct than for more "trendy" languages such as Ruby, which is why people would rather be getting Ruby jobs. Ruby is currently tending to get adopted by small agile companies trying to do cool things, and as such it's popularity is going to get ramped up. (Regardless of whether you believe it to be a more elegant, etc. language). - tallguy78, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I really don't understand this at all. So giving you convenient built in feature is suppose to make anyone's life easier. First, you should not depend on any feature from the server!! if you do, that you're stuck on that particular server. Actually, that's enough reason to for anyone to be running dead scared. What you need to make is self-deployable war file that you can deploy to anywhere! like tomcat,weblogic,websphere, or whatever. The minimal configuration I'd have to do is database connection pools and that's the way it should be! In my line of work.. I see so many dumb f'ks who think putting built in feature in server is suppose to be helpufl and now they can't upgrade to the new server or move to another platform because of their dumb configuration. Again, my 2 cents and I don't talk like this in real life ^_^. To my seniority, I just smile and get my pay check.
- stv06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@fazras: So, what tools do you recommend?
- chasetec, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You are incorrect sir, and yes I do understand what you are saying. First of all most app servers don't requre all Java EE services to be running. JBoss comes with a minimal, default, and full configuration that you can choose from or customize further. Other app servers like the Sun Java System Application Server won't start the messaging server unless you actually use JMS, etc. And while you can use the new Java Persistence API(just like using Hibernate directly) from within Tomcat you lose features like CMT and Security propagation. You end up having to write code to deal with extended context managers when you don't have Session EJBs and CMT. Tomcat only takes up slighly less memory than more properly configured app servers.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@danahata: do your research before you post
- bwilliam45, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0According to this article: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/kickstart/webserver.html?S_TACT=105AGX01&S_CMP=SIMPLEART WAS Community Edition has Tomcat 5.5 embedded in it.
- savio13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sander a couple of things:
Re: - What are the strong point of Geronimo above JBoss?
If you look at the history of JBoss and Geronimo, you'll find that the core Geronimo developers actually started working on the JBoss development team. However, there were difference in opinions between the future Geronimo guys and Marc Fleury et al. So, some of the developers left and started Geronimo. So there are some similarities in the two products (and in all honesty most J2EE app servers), but some differences that favor Geronimo. For example, the Geronimo team decided to stay away from JMX in the kernel (after living through the pain of JBoss' use of JMX in the kernel). In mid June, JBoss also decided that a JMX based kernel was not the way to do things (see http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/06/14/jboss_jmx/ ). The other major difference is that Geronimo is developed by the Apache community and is not controlled by any 1 company.
Re. the other comments about Portlets & CMR:
Check this out: http://www.geronimoplugins.com/
It's still an early idea from the Geronimo team, but it's interesting. Using the Geronimo Plugin architecture you could create a plugin for nearly anything you want to run on Geronimo.
BTW, it also appears that EBay is using Geronimo in production ... not sure in what capacity, but that's a pretty good endorsement. See; http://www.chariotsolutions.com/slides/geronimo-javaone2006.pdf - savio13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Geronimo has an option for using Tomcat (5.5) or Jetty as the servlet engine. So instead of thinking "Tomcat vs. Geronimo", it's more about "Geronimo, with Tomcat inside". Next comes IBM's WebSphere Application Server Community Edition, which is built from Apache Geronimo. So, now it's WAS Community Edition, with Geronimo inside, with Tomcat inside. ;-)
Check out: http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/websphere/
This site on sorceforge talks about the benefits of starting with Geronimo/WAS Community Edition. To summarize, if you start with Tomcat and you need to add logging or web services support, you have to go get & integrate the apps yourself. If you start with Geronimo you can use it just for Tomcat and turn the rest of the features off. When you need them (i.e. logging), change an option and it's ready to go. -
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