What is Digg?181 Comments
- dadioflex, on 10/12/2007, -15/+178She sent him a polite, though uninformed, email and he responded by being sarcastic so he's not exactly blameless.
- sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -11/+111This guy sounds like an asshat, obviously the woman was confused, why not just politely point her in the right direction? It's not like she was being rude in the first email. I can't see any reason to publicly try to humiliate her just because she's not computer savvy. He's the one who initiated the rudeness. There are tons of people out there who don't know anything about ISPs and think a "client" is just someone who walks into their office.
I'd say the downside of open source would be working with condescending developers like Steve here. - robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -12/+99That guy is an *****. There was absolutely no need to respond to their email with
"This is a long shot since you obviously don't know how to read a web
page on how to get help or how to read a manual..."
All it would have taken would have been something like "Sorry, but we only write the software SquirrelMail, which your Internet Provider lets you use. You should probably contact your Internet Provider (the company that setup your email) and ask them to help you".
It's people like this that make people think IT support people are *****. - lowbot, on 10/12/2007, -12/+85Wow this is stupid. Instead of deleting the email or sending off a form letter saying who they should contact its your typical geek wet dream of telling a user off and getting into a 'no youre stupid, no you are!!' back and forth. Wow, this makes squirrelmail look really bad in my eyes. Im certain the organization as a whole has a lot more professionalism than the poster. the worst part is he thinks this is so clever he posts it publically to the web with all names intact to boot.
This is one of the many reasons open source has not been taken seriously by the mainstream. The typical wet dream of telling people off is too tempting ,especially new people asking for help in usenet. Theyre in the receving end of some pretty nasty responses, most of which are completely unjustified. Ive always thought Ubuntu's recent popularity most likely stems from having a more-or-less civil support system. Open source people should pay great attention to this and see this squirrelmail developer as how not to do things and how to make your product look bad to strangers who might have once been interested in it. - Ryland, on 10/12/2007, -9/+70@iamcitizen: "The problem is, she sent an email to someone that she wanted to fix her problems, instead of looking for a way that she could fix her problems."
Doesn't matter. He could have just responded by saying, "Squirrelmail is a mail reader application; we don't have any way to fix your problem. The limit on attachments is set by your internet service provider, so this is something you should take up with them. Best regards, etc." That took me about 15 seconds to think up and type, and it's enough information for her to get her going in the right direction. Instead, he responded with sarcasm and a link to a site that would confuse her even more. Then he is surprised when she gets angry at him? He was being an ass, I would have been angry too. - nogami, on 10/12/2007, -10/+71I'm with the lady on this one - the developer acted like an ass. All he had to say was "Squirrelmail is free software produced by volunteer programmers for internet service providers and public use. Unfortunately we don't have any support people that can deal with your request, please contact your local provider."
Instead, he made himself look like an ass, and really didn't do anything productive for the project. - SamuelJackson, on 10/12/2007, -8/+59This guy sure seems proud of himself for being an *****, why post this stuff all over the place and include her actual name and email?
I get the impression that having a little computer knowledge really makes Steve Brown feel "empowered" and superior. Unfortunately he's giving his project and the open source community a bad name by being such a jerk.
I'll remember to stay away from "Squirrelmail" - joepeg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+47I 100% agree. She clearly had no idea what she was talking about, but was making an honest attempt at resolving a problem. Simply ignoring her email would probably have forced her to use the appropriate channels for solving her problem. All you achieved was being a narcissistic *****.
- e68895f, on 10/12/2007, -13/+49exactly, just because you work in an open source software project that is free to their users, does not give you the right to be a cocky *****. If customers only get politeness by paying, then there is something seriously wrong.
- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -9/+43That guy is kind of a dick and is representative of the views of the open source community as a whole towards people who use computers without necessarily knowing much about them. He expects someone who is obviously computer illiterate to be able to use a mailing list and instead of offering helpful advice responds by being a dick which causes her to become angry and act even more foolish.
- toddji, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38Exactly. If they get as many inquiries as he claims, why haven't they made a simple web page explaining the situation that they can respond with a link to, or create a form letter response that politely explains the situation.
Further, if they have problems with people misunderstanding what they are, maybe they should change the product to remove their logo from the login screen, or whatever point is confusing the users. But, rather than looking inward, they ridicule the users. Good thing it's an open source project, they wouldn't last long selling commercial software. - diggsIt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30Because they love what they do, and would be doing it anyway, job or not.
- AMadeUpName, on 10/12/2007, -3/+31Personally, I think that this guy was just rude. I am not saying that this lady was any better. I would have told her that SquirrelMail is not her email provider but free software that she uses to check her email. That she needed to contact her ISP about her issue. In the future to please contact the mailing list if she had any questions regarding SquirrelMail. And that he was unpaid developer of free software.
By being rude, this turns people off from the use of open source software because they will feel that they cannot get proper support from said software. The best thing open source projects can do is create a support email account and display it prominently on the first page of their site. At which point, this guy could have forwarded this email to the account. It would not have been his problem and he could have gone on with his work.
Having worked in customer support for various companies before, the best thing to do if the problem is not with your product is to as politely and quickly as possible explain the situation and try to point them in the right direction. By being rude you leave a bad taste in someones mouth. If you are actually polite you might be able to make this person actually feel that they owe the project something such as a donation.
One of the big problems with the adoption of open source software is the lack of good support. This is taking in to account that most of the people who need support are either morons (such as this lady) or have very little time to figure something out on their own. If the answer is out there but takes four hours to find, it is not very helpful, especially when you have a fast approaching deadline. - ryanknapper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+28That's what I thought through the whole thing. A tiny bit of tact goes a long way.
- nazsco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+26Lame.
if they receive that amount of emails, change the dog damn software to make the contact page more clear. - FartyMcPooPants, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24I don't think theres anything I can say that hasn't already been said, but just wanted to add my vote to the 'steves an idiot' column.
Stupid git, gives all of us in IT a bad name, shame on you - looll, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21The part that gets me: "I was feeling particularly punchy, and after having a good laugh with
some other devs, I decided to reply with the following". The original email qualifies for a good laugh? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23http://smoothweb.net/sm.txt
EDIT: Digg effect is crazy. This text file has been up for 50 seonds, and already has had 39 views. - aywwts4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19If they really get this many issues, why not type up one easy to understand email, with no acronyms or confusing jargon to computer novices. Explaining the situation, and getting them to go away, then dealing with this becomes one copy paste away. Geeks, Really smart at coding, But not so good at dealing with people who don't know much about computers.
Something like this would have diffused the situation and cause them less work.
"Hello, We apologize for the confusion, but we regret to inform you it is beyond our control and responsibility to fix your problem
Squirrel mail is free software that was developed at no charge for your/your company's/your hosting provider's use, with no support included. Squirrel mail is not your email provider, Your email provider is running Squirrel Mail, it is their responsibility to configure and maintain your squirrel mail email.
Any questions you have should be directed first at your network administrator or IT Department, then to your website hosting or email provider. Finally feel free to look at out website for troubleshooting and frequently asked questions (Insert links here)
We regret the confusion, though we would like to request that you refrain from contacting anyone else on our development staff with your support related questions.
Thank you,
The Squirrel Mail development team." - carguy84, on 10/12/2007, -9/+26wow 2 people in the open source world making money...
- GavinZac, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18yes, because php web application development is the real world. for gods sake get your head out of your ass, the woman made an honest attempt to fix something she, along with 90% of the world, knows little or nothing about.
- koick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18For all those saying his inital reply to her was rude, I'd have to agree. I mean, how hard is it(?!) to send an email saying:
Looks like you need to contact your ISP.
http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/SeekingHelp
Cheers - Grimboy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Honestly, in that situation he could have deleted the email and still have been waaay in the right. Or, if this situation is as common as he claims it is he could simply have mailed back a generic email saying it wasn't his responsibility and not to email again. If she persisted, fair enough because then she has already been rude. On the other hand his initial sarcastic reaction wasn't that bad and didn't really justify her sudden campaign against him. Some responsibility may be on the ISP or the woman's employers for not keeping her informed. Perhaps the ISP should have made it clearer that squirrelmail weren't the people to contact. Overall a decidedly mehish story.
EDIT: @iamcitizen: On your site you might want to change expct to expect. - SlimeyPete, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20This would be funny if the developer's initial response wasn't so condescending. As it is, I have no sympathy.
- eean, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17I got a free trip to Europe for a open source conference. We had a open bar with Belgium beer!
I say thats not too bad for a hobby. I don't think of it like "as opposed to working for money" to me its "as opposed to playing some computer game" as thats probably what I would do instead. - robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20Maybe we'll try http://duggmirror.com and not diggmirror ;-)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16As a genuine ***** myself, I feel duty-bound to tell you this.
Rule number one: always know when to be an *****, and when to save it for later.
This was one of the ‘save it’ times. - volve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14If any of my team members from the projects I work on or have worked on in the past ever responded to a user, even an utterly confused user, the same way Steve and his Lead did, I _would_ remove them from the project in question. Their "jobs" would _not_ be safe.
Open Source development means you are on the front lines. This is not some for-profit corporation where snarky developers are strategically hidden behind sales departments. You have to participate with the community and learn from your users, and that means especially the easily confused users. As others have said, if even a handful of misdirected emails occur for each of the project developers then it's obviously time for a canned response form letter or a web page explaining their potential avenues of support.
I've switched several installations from SquirrelMail over the years as it was a generally out-of-date and unfriendly user experience but given this depiction of developer and project lead idiocy I am amazed it is still as popular as it is. - JavertHolmes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15What I find incredible about open source and/or free as in beer development is how incredibly, unbelievably large the body of work is out there. Software to do every conceivable thing imaginable is out there and it's all free for the taking.
Imagine if such efforts were put towards free graphic design, 3-D modelling, photography, music, architectural design, etc, etc. What is it about *programmers* that makes them so willing to do so much for free? - danz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Not as funny as the Tuttle CentOS incident but still good for a laugh. I think e-mails like this is a plus to being an open source developer since you can fire off an reply like that and know your job is safe.
- felderado, on 10/12/2007, -8/+20Linus Torvalds drives a beautiful BMW. He's quite well off. Guess open source doesn't pay????
- rockbochs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12You could have been a little more tactful.
- myclykaon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Way back, I wrote an open source C PostScript generator lib. A copy ended up on the other side of the world (this was back when Mosaic was considered the mutts nuts of web browsers) and a farmer/programmer from NZ sent me a req. for help. It was how to draw a sheep (he was doing some farming/GIS app). As opposed to the person in the story, I sent him a code fragment he could use to do this. I didn't send him to http://www.learn-to-draw.com/ (even if had existed). This article merely points to the difference between men and (rather immature) boys. It has very little to say about downsides to OSD.
- sabor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I agree with others here, if he was not willing to be helpful without being an ass, he should not have replied.
That being said, leaving her e-mail posted so that millions can spam her due to a reaction to a smart-ass e-mail is just plain wrong. - Goodsoup, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Open source is a result of capitalism and many open source developers (most actually) are paid just as well as closed source developers. As a brief example of a big and small company look at IBM and 37Signals. Both of these companies are for profit, but they both pay regular employees to work on open source frameworks (Eclipse and RoR) and then use these base frameworks to create products that they charge for. There are lots of companies that use models similar to this.
The idea that open source represents anti-capitalism and that open source developers work for free or less money than closed source developers is often dead wrong. - circusbred, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13This works:
http://duggmirror.com//programming/The_Downside_of_Being_on_Open_Source_Developer/plain.html - dougmc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10You don't even have to love what you do.
Generally you write software to scratch some itch you have -- you need it, can't find something else to do it properly, and so you write it yourself. Often (usually?) the story ends there, but in some cases people then decide to release the software to the world.
This has a number of potential benefits --
- others may take the software and improve on it in ways you didn't think of or didn't
have the time or skills to implement.
- it gets your name out to people who might hire you in the future. Don't discount this --
if your software is well written and useful, this is often very helpful in getting future jobs.
- it's a great way of bragging about how good of a programmer you are.
And a few possible downsides --
- people may make fun of you for poor coding
- idiots may bother you for free support, or blame you for problems that aren't your fault.
- you might get sued by somebody when the software doesn't work for them (usually idiots, and
disclaimers and licenses don't always ward off the idiots) or they might go after you for
infringing on a patent or who knows what else.
- it can suck up a lot more of your time. - KiaserLies, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10the title is mis informing. and i hate people who bitch. no digg
- Dayyve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Steve Brown comes off looking like the pompous ass here, not the woman. She asked nicely. She obviously doesn't know a computer app from a hole in the wall. He responds with a snooty "Well you're a dumbass who can't read so here's a clue!" Wow, nice sense of humor Steve. And you wonder why there's this perception of computer geeks having no life, not being able to socialize, and getting laid as often as a Haley's sighting. But then again if he had a life he wouldn't spend his free time DOING YET MORE PROGRAMMING.
Piss on SquirrelMail and that whole "pick on the retards 'cuz it's easy" mentality. Not cool. - wlloydda, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@volve
Agree with you 100% The guy is a total ass and shouldn't be tolerated on the project. His "job" should be in jeopardy. - JavertHolmes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"Because they love what they do, and would be doing it anyway, job or not."
Exactly. And there are a ton of musicians, artists, etc. who make the same claim. Yet I don't see a body of a million plus hours worth of free books, song compositions, and high-res artwork scans out there. Gutenberg doesn't count as it's books that have legally been made free-as-in-beer. - wizgha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Because she will obviously know wth you're talking about when you tell her it's an IMAP client.
- diggsIt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Read 'Just For Fun', by Linus Torvalds.
- Fratz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's ironic that this developer has chosen to spend his free time on a project making software to facilitate human communication, since he really should avoid it at all costs.
- dankosaur, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I don't think that saying "I believe we only have 10 meg." is that ambiguous. It means there's a quota on their used disk space for messages--not attachments. Also, instead of sending a helpful reply, he purposely sends an email that is rude and over the head of the question asker. Netapp? Come on.
- drgruney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@mem2
I wouldn't want the guy to not be on the project because I don't like him. I wouldn't want him on the project because being an ass to the end-user is worse for the project than any gains from his code. It's counter productive. - danggit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It's one thing to take pride in what you do; it's another to hold that against others and lash out at them because they aren't tech-savvy. I think guys like Steve Brown should get over their "leetness" and realize that being tech-savvy doesn't make you "better". He should hope that this doesn't bite him in the ass when he finds himself at loss and needing a quick and clear answer.
Poor form, Steve Brown, poor form. - simpleid, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I work as a developer for the loc. gov. while going to school, and afterwards work on opensource. Omfg you can do both?~!? I must be a genius, obviously.
(I guess that's what I deserve for being closed minded. /sarcasm.) Why can't you people just love all sides? I write .net applications professionally, and work with opensource libraries to learn and contribute code where ever I can at home afterwards...
BIll Gates and Linus Torvalds never created natural laws describing a world where you can only choose one side. Do it all you lazy bums!
:P - conceptjunkie4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Oh sigh. And I think that this is a small example of why people don't *get* open-source software. Yes, the gal was off in right field when it came to trying to solve her problem. However, I believe that the reply was a bit on the rude side. I would have replied with this instead:
"Sorry, Steph, but I'm afraid that you've emailed the wrong person and company. We/I just develop the free SquirrelMail software that your particular email provider uses, and I'm guessing that you've run up against one of the limits that your email provider has put on you. We can't control this in the SquirrelMail software, which is only a small part of the whole email system you use. However if you contact whoever does your system administration, they can probably help you with your problem. Good luck!"
Yes, since she's using *free* Open Source software, which she perhaps has no way of knowing that her provider got for free. Yes, she's a clueless user/n00b/luser by the very fact that she's actually *using* it. However in the future she'll probably discourage the use of SquirrelMail whenever she can. If SquirrelMail is at all funded by voluntary contributions, you can probably count her company out and any other company that she'll have dealings with in the future. It's this elitist attitude that'll keep Windows on more desks.
And if the original reply and the reply by the project lead is any indication of the general attitude of the SquirrelMail folks, perhaps it's time at the company where I work to change away from it so our users don't get heaped with the same abuse. - diggid3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7what's that opensource guy whining? he started the reply to some sincere, uniformed or not, questions downright snotty with: '...since you obviously don't know how to read a web page on how to get help or how to read a manual, but ...'
what a jerk! so much for squirrelmail ... they'd rather ditch this 'contributor'. -
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