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37signals shows how ridiculous it is to install something in Windows Vista

37signals.com — Clocking in at a stunning 35 clicks, the video shows that installing a script debugger in the new operating system is not only not made any easier, but it still takes a series of hoop jumps. They offer the same process in OS X for comparison.

Who dugg this? Made popular Oct 26, 2006

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  • xose, on 10/12/2007, -31/+122He is using the Release Candidate, so stop with the "It's Beta" excuse. It doesn't work anymore.
  • theone3, on 10/12/2007, -22/+84Actually having used RC1 extensively, I can attest to the fact that they have completely fixed the over-zealous security problems that he's describing. I don't know how he managed to require so many clicks, but I know that it's never been a problem in my usage of the operating system. Vista is incredibly fast and easy to get around when compared to XP. Certainly it's not quite as good as Ubuntu in terms of software installation intergration, but I'd say it's actually almost on par with OSX.
  • ridiculoufish, on 10/12/2007, -4/+54The article is about a script debugger. You're going to have a lot of trouble debugging JavaScript with gdb.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -15/+60http://duggmirror.com/programming/37signals_shows_how_ridiculous_it_is_to_install_something_in_Windows_Vista/

    i don't care about the referring thing. it doesn't work for everyone, so please don't bitch at me.
  • Grimdotdotdot, on 10/12/2007, -9/+52Well, I can do it in seven clicks - most of those things you won't see twice.
  • chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -28/+66he didn't have WGA installed for one.

    That like including the login and boot. what a tard.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -35/+70we understand:
    linux > os x > windows (or any MS product)
    now can we move on?
  • prammy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37Hmm looks like the problem has been fixed. I clocked it at 7 or 8 clicks.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31I actually don't understand why he did hit Retry a dozen times. But maybe I'm a too experienced Windows supporter ... There's no way you can make appear a file that's not found on first try by hitting 'Retry'. You have to look out for it manually.

    Second, it's never been wise to download and run a setup package from within Internet Explorer. I always choose to download it to the desktop and run it from there.

    But I assume the video shows exactly how my grandma, mother, father and the rest use the PC and get stuck while dealing with Windows ... I forgot about those issues long ago. That's the main problem of us pros: We can't switch viewpoints anymore.
  • dkoon, on 10/12/2007, -11/+28that guy had to do that to count more clicks just to make it look bad. he doesn't care about what reality is.
  • Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -9/+25@junkmail02

    You are forgetting something about digg:

    microsoft < windows < cringely < sony < osx < linux < ubuntu < kevin rose
  • FallibleDragon, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23@prism: first off, wget is an open source tool from Unix, ported to windows because windows lacked it. Secondly, this is about security issues WHILE installing. Debian and other linux systems' package managers configure security stuff for you, as an integral part of the install process. If you ran that .exe on windows, you would still be prompted for lots of silly things, like whether you where you want to install, whether you have read the (usually extortionate) license terms, whether you want to install spyware/adware with the product, etc. Also, it will not truly become part of your system configuration on windows: it's just an app, on your hard drive, with a few menu options. When you install something on Linux, the system understands what you just did; that there's a new program there, that needs to be maintained and kept up-to-date. It looks after it for you, instead of bugging you about it, or making life difficult.

    This difference is just another example of the fundamental flaws in windows.
  • theone3, on 10/12/2007, -16/+31StevoCJ - 10.4.8. I haven't actually been paying attention to Leopard, no idea about it. I don't think that's really the point. The author is saying that Vista is terrible. That's a lie. I've used it, it's still a little cautious on security, but with a history like Windows', that's understandable. You can also turn off all the security warnings quite easily if you feel like it. Basically they mainly protect against user stupidity (which is a pandemic amongst PC users) so it's not much more insecure if you turn it off.

    The only thing that sucks about Vista is that it still uses the NTFS file system (for now) and it still uses that bloody registry. Otherwise, it's on par with most OSes out there right now.
  • dtribe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14I wish people would stop posting comments about hating certain computer companies and then try to blame the inevitable negative Diggs to 'fanboys'
  • Kujila, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18Every iteration of Windows becomes more "Retard friendly" (As the Geek Squad guys at work affectionately call it). Coming from Windows 3.11, to 95, to 98, to XP.... Microsoft tries to make it so a blind/deaf/mentally handicapped 89 year old woman can easily play her records and download her internets.

    It's just a matter of disabling all that.
  • benthere, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19Script Debugger for Windows NT 4.0 and Later
    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=2f465be0-94fd-4569-b3c4-dffdf19ccd99&displaylang=en

    Additional Information
    Note: This version of the debugger is deprecated technology and is no longer supported. Please see http://support.microsoft.com/vsnet2003 for up-to-date Script debugging tools.

    37signals tries to install deprecated Win NT debugger on Vista. Film at 11.
  • tadunne, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16I think the point was, why ask him to retry? If he can not access it then why give him the option in the first place..
  • PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14You keep talking about "oh, he hadn't installed WGA?" and "you can turn off UAP," but the point isn't how an experienced user would go about an install. This is how many clicks it would take a user with a vanilla install.
    Hell, on my Mac I've disabled that "you're downloading an application" notification, but it's entirely fair to include it in the video.
  • mockstar, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18As a seasoned Windows user you already take it for granted that "Retry" has never ever ever once worked and you wouldn't even bother clicking on it, for anyone else on the planet it is perfectly reasonable to presume that it would do something, especially since the option is available. It's just basic day 1 usability. Windows is a very good example of all the worst that bad design can offer - there are so many other issues like this, which Windows users work around without even thinking about and then wonder why others criticise.
  • Brennan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16You're an idiot. None of that was Apple's fault, it was your own for not understanding how your own iPod works.
  • FallibleDragon, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Also, he chose gdb in that example, because it's a debugger; he wasn't trying to be that specific, because there was no need, to make his point. apt-get mozilla-js-debugger would do what you want, or with some major open source browsers like konqueror, a javascript debugger is already built-in, so there's no need to install one at all, much less click 35 buttons to answer security issues that should be secure by default.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19What's so hilarious, is that the commentors above are complaining that this is just another Apple fanboy but what the guy really is is a known User Interface Expert and probably one of the best in the field. And highlighting one of the biggest problems in Windows as compared with their competitors. I think the Microsoft execs need to see this for themselves.
  • brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"o, in my attempts I've tried to look at the options. "Ok, lets try to sync the music". That "solved" the problem - it simply deleted all of my 6GB of music (which I didn't keep on my computer since it was on my bloody iPod)"

    You can thank the RIAA for that one, not Apple.
  • lonnieh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9mockstar: "Retry" is useful. What if the file is inaccessible due to the file being written to? I'd rather have a "Retry" button than not in that situation... but then again, I am a seasoned Windows user.
  • chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13yeah I don't really get where there coming from on this. they bitch about popup boxes but there is a button that says "don't show this again". It's not that hard to work out people.

    If you've ever seen people press "view source" by mistake and they get a window full of javascript most of the time they freak out. I've seen people turn the computer off because of it. I know it's easy for us to sit here and say this and that but the average person who uses a computer (and I stress uses not that they want to know what's going on) they do need protecting from themselves.
  • prammy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Using the same words as the news post. But thanks.
  • s2djfinc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Ok, I agree OSX is an elegant OS. I agree Ubuntu is well designed and user friendly.

    But...

    I have the same confidence in an anti-Windows articles from a Mac fan as I do anti-global warming evidence from the White House.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8If you own visual studio. Nice though that you noted an additional problem with their videos.
  • FallibleDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Also, that link you used with wget isn't a permanent link (afaik) and only works after clicking through the MS website, since MS is so willing to judge you a pirate that they make it difficult to use your own computer.
  • LoungeActx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9This is the exact thing that was happening with my install of Release Candidate 1. It took me so long to install iTunes 7, because I would click through and once the install started I would leave, then come back to realize it went 15% through and needed me to click "Ok" then I would click it...leave, then comeback and to find out it went another 5% and needed me to click "ok".
  • jeriqo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12Whatever this guy did, you will NEVER see this happen under OS X.
  • OnlyShawn, on 10/12/2007, -16/+22@coffee....

    except, amigo, that that is PRECISELY the point. This is to be a comparison, so it very much DOES matter about how things work in a mac.

    i used to really hate macs...i like them now. if vista ends up being great, then "way to go microsoft"...until then, i'll stick with my mbp, and be happy.
  • jasgeo, on 10/12/2007, -45/+51And yet I still could care less about a Mac. I'm growing a little tired of the whole "Look, we're special too" Macintosh crowd always trying to prove thier little OS can do something better than Windows. It's all a bit childish and geeky. What do these people want, a pat on the back?
  • tadunne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Stop trying to spam digg with that weird blue animation thing!?
  • abohling, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It can be that difficult in Windows XP also.

    Plus there's no allowance to download windows utilities while in OS X. I wanted to download the IE 7 block to deploy on my Windows machines at work but couldn't because validation was required. If there is a way, please, someone let me know.
  • benthere, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6thespace, I'm pretty sure 37signals has more than a few copies of VS.

    But even if they don't, the whole premise of his blog entry is deceptive, because he failed to mention that the software he was trying to install is deprecated. It says so *right there* on the download page.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10RIAA not Apple, probably does the same thing with Zune
  • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Doesn't anyone else think the more worrying thing is that an installation failed from one path, but succeeded from another? First he hit "Run" and it failed, then he saved it and double-clicked the file after and it worked. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
  • JSchwage, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well, now I'm definitely not upgrading to Windows Vista. I think I'll be taking the Ubuntu/Mac OS X route.
  • inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Did anyone who dugg this even attempt to watch the video? It took 37 clicks because this numb nuts ***** up the installation. The real question is, how many MORE clicks does Vista take over XP?

    Drum roll please... ONE!

    You Diggtards have successfully voted another worthless piece of junk to the front page because you fell for the misleading headline. Congratulations!

    No digg. Marked as lame.
  • PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@emeidi:"Second, it's never been wise to download and run a setup package from within Internet Explorer."

    But the instructions on the download page said to do so. When the instructions on Microsoft's website have to be ignored to make stuff work, you know you have a problem.
  • uberlord, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10@FALLIBLEDRAGON

    Try apple's DRMs and tell me Microsoft thinks we pirate =(
    The re-burning trick doesn't even work for me anymore, and even that way was pretty annoying and just plain bad. There was a noticable drop in sound-quality, and untill I got Daemon, re-inserting the disc got tiring. (not in the tired sense, but in the boring way)
  • jaderobbins, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5the linux debate rages on
  • JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Good for this article. If it requires 37 clicks to install something like this, imagine how many warnings you get when a trojan loader tries to install itself on your machine. User ignorance can no longer be blamed for virus', cause even an idiot wouldn't do it.
  • iamichi, on 11/12/2008, -6/+9What is ridiculous is that this is front page news...

    A guy that loves macs gets an old build of Vista and installs an old piece of software. You only have to validate Windows once, so that hardly counts. The only thing here is that it didn't run first time when he ran the file from the IE temp directory, which is probably fixed in later builds anyway...

    This is just a Vista bashing article for the sake of bashing Vista.
  • FallibleDragon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Actually, MAC is one of the most overused acronyms in IT; it stands for lots of things, depending on context. As for Mac vs. MAC vs. Macintosh vs. "Apple" vs. iBook etc... that's down to apple's marketing, but at least they have a recognisable brand, which is more than most PC builders ever manage. You should be thankful for that :)
  • Soulhuntre, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I think "goon" is totally appropriate for such a blatant FUD attempt. Unless 37 wants us to believe they are just this dumb?
  • slack31337, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4LOL my favorite part

    "windows in general has been like a confused and slow person. vista is like a person who lost their meds and is trying their best to ignore the voices"
  • akinder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Because that's easier than downloading an EXE and double clicking it.
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