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- krymson, on 05/10/2009, -6/+40The pot calls the kettle black
- suprememilo, on 05/10/2009, -2/+31Google needs competition, search CAN get even better.
- lothar250, on 05/10/2009, -9/+34So does the EU also think that bundling Safari with Mac OS X is unfair? Come on, it's their OS, they should be able to bundle it with whatever they want. It's not like they're banning their users from downloading alternative browsers like Firefox.
- ryanonfire, on 05/10/2009, -10/+31Cry me a river microsoft
- suprememilo, on 05/10/2009, -10/+28I still don't understand the big deal about bundling IE with Windows, without it how else are people going to get other browsers on their computers, if the EU forces Microsoft to bundle other browsers with their OS that is ridiculous.
Opera and Mozilla need to quit going to the courts and start with HP and Dell getting their browsers bundled on new computers, and maybe start advertising if they want big (even bigger in Mozilla;s case) market share. - bratterscain, on 05/10/2009, -2/+15I guess it depends on the size of the company. All is roughly equal between the two except size. It's also that way in society that when one has so much power and dominance, things get really boring so we push for competition. Kind of analogous to a top fighter who is so strong, the fights lose their fun because there's no competition and hence fun is gone. Society does this and there's lots of things society agrees with that becomes law, hence our anti-monopolistic laws. The EU is not necessarily anti-MS but pro competition. The competition creates quicker advancements. One big power in any group is not good and why society doesn't like tyrants, even when they're giving the people what they want. There's always potential for failure.
- inactive, on 05/10/2009, -9/+21Microsoft just needs to give up on the web search business.
They have had MSN.com with the search options since 1998 and its still full of fail. - ahneema, on 05/10/2009, -7/+19can somebody explain to me why it is ok for Linux to automatically install Firefox (this happened when I installed Ubuntu to my PC) but it's not ok for Windows to automatically install IE.
- secrity, on 05/10/2009, -0/+10I haven't seen any serious competition to Google's search engine yet. I would use MS's search engine if it was in the same league as Google. MS has a LONG way to go to compete with Google -- if it even can compete. If MS was going to be competitive with Google, it should be competitive by now.
- zjbird, on 05/10/2009, -1/+10I, for one, welcome the new Google overlords.
- DickBreath, on 05/10/2009, -0/+9Microsoft's search engine forever lost credibility some years ago when a Slashdot article exposed how biased it was in favor of Microsoft and against its competitors.
For example, a search for "Linux" on other search engines brought up unbiased results. Pages you would expect. Pages you were actually looking for.
On MSN Search (it was called at the time) a search for "Linux" brought up various Get The Facts pages and other anti-Linux propaganda.
No thanks. When I use a search engine, I am trying to find something. Not trying to be influenced by Microsoft's propaganda. Trust is hard to build and easy to destroy. - foolishimp, on 05/10/2009, -5/+13This is Microsoft as good as admitting it needs to leverage it's monopoly in one space - the OS to dominate another, the Search engine. AKA past business practices which were found illegal.
For the kiddies with short memories - Microsoft leveraged it's Monopoly position to sabotage browser (and other) competition from blackmailing partners all the way to hidden interfaces to benefit their own software to intentionally breaking competitors software running on their platform. Terms like FUD, embrace and extend ...... GOOGLE them ...... oh wait. - zjbird, on 05/10/2009, -0/+8You just have to be special, don't you
- DickBreath, on 05/10/2009, -1/+9You're exactly right. Pot meet Kettle.
Microsoft complains that FireFox, Opera and Chrome default the search engine to Google. But OMG (*gasp*) if PC makers can control the screen that lets users choose what browser they want, it might put Microsoft at a disadvantage.
But letting Microsoft work with those same PC makers to bundle Windows for twenty years, especially when those PC makers were forbidden to change *anything* that the user first sees, well that is just fine with Microsoft.
But OMG, Google might get some advantage if the PC makers and other browser makers are allowed, heaven forbid, to design the screen that users first see when choosing what browser to use. - Jimbob0i0, on 05/10/2009, -2/+10Once upon a time ISPs would wend out floppies/CDs with software to set up the dial up connection (or their own app to connect) along with a browser to install - Netscape Navigator was very common.
If we wanted to connect quickly we'd get the PPP/SLIP dial up info and make the connection ourselves and FTP a browser to the system to then use. - headortails, on 05/10/2009, -2/+10Amen to that brothaaa!
- paulieslim, on 05/10/2009, -3/+10as far as search engines go I still prefer Excite...
or Lycos or sometimes Infoseek - Dolorous, on 05/10/2009, -12/+19better them than Microsoft I say. Google has accrued their dominance of the search market through good old hard work and innovation. Microsoft on the other hand has more than once - and proven in court too - gotten their monopoly through unfair and illegal business practices.
- exspasticcomics, on 05/10/2009, -2/+8excuses.. excuses..
- inactive, on 05/10/2009, -2/+8It's not okay when Microsoft does it because they're a convicted monopoly with a history of illegally using their monopoly leverage to put other companies under.
- lorddazzer, on 05/10/2009, -5/+11For those of you out there who are commenting about why it is okay for Linux to bundle with Firefox, and not okay for Windows to bundle IE... when was the last time you tried to uninstall Internet Explorer from Windows?
The problem is not the bundling. The problem is that IE is critical to the functionality of the operating system. There is no "simple" way to uninstall IE (in fact, removing it the "normal" way simply removes links to the application, and not the application itself). If you use other ways of removing the executable, the operating system becomes crippled in a couple of ways (.chm becomes unviewable, for example).
Linux? apt-remove firefox. - Risti, on 05/10/2009, -2/+7IE != Internet
It would take 5 minutes from any decent programmer to write a script, that asks the user, what browser he/she wishes to use, and then download it from the net. I'm sure a company as big as Microsoft could find a solution. - Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -7/+12Google doesn't harm the industry. Technology is more important than advertising. Google's technology for advertising is superior to Microsoft's. Microsoft is hedging. They are simply trying to say that they feel that any action by the EU against them will embolden their competition, which, right now, the biggest is Google.
This is creating fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Their whole anti-linux web site is almost totally exaggeration if not outright lies. They claim that everyone can and does post false things about companies and people. The issue here is that most commentary that are negative about Microsoft are true. They are just trying to manipulate your thinking in hopes you will believe them instead of the courts, other countries, etc regarding their criminal monopolistic predatory practices. - secrity, on 05/10/2009, -0/+4I just installed Kubuntu 904 on a few PCs and it did not install Firefox, I had to install it myself.
- joeally, on 05/10/2009, -3/+7Linux doesn't automatically install Firefox. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Linux doesn't install any browser. Some distributions do but no linux it's self. And Firefox isn't developed by on of the groups that develops a Linux distribution so its only in their interests to provide the most suitable browser. Microsoft develops develops IE so it is in there interests to push that browser through to achieve market dominance.
- Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -1/+5the eu is simply doing more to protect their consumers. I don't agree with cranky geeks on most things. Yes dvorak thinks it is bad. But others on the show don't agree with him on this.
- str3ama, on 05/10/2009, -8/+12asides from the obvious, it is a legitimate complaint. Obviously Microsoft can't say this without seeming the least bit hypocritical, it raises a good point - Google's dominance is pretty scary considering that they're being left relatively unchecked as the gatekeepers of the Internet. But they're only the gatekeepers because we allow them to be.
Still I think the rate of growth of Google within the last 10 years (yeah they've actually been around for that long) speaks for itself, the sheer amount of buyouts should have raised flags earlier - Microsoft and Bell both faced scrutiny for this, and I think the veneer at Google is starting to crack. - Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -1/+5Apple is not a monoply. And if they were to rule it one tomorrow through the judiciary they still wouldn't be a convicted criminal monoply.
- DickBreath, on 05/10/2009, -2/+5How will people get their browsers? Just like they do today! It will be preinstalled on your new PC.
How do people get their power supply or DVD-ROM drive today? It comes preinstalled on your new PC.
So many replies. But they miss the point.
Microsoft should NOT be allowed to bundle IE. It should be the PC makers who choose what to bundle -- just like they choose what power supply to bundle. The PC is their product. Microsoft's OS is just a component, like a power supply is a component. - insky60, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3How about Web Crawler...
- ZenMojo, on 05/10/2009, -1/+4Game recognize game...and that *****'s lookin' awfully familiar....
- Tuto, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3I think the problem with Microsoft bundling their browser is that their OS basically is the entire market. So when Microsoft bundles its browser in its OS it basically means that Microsofts uses its power in the OS market to have an advantage in the browser market. It can do this because the browser market is made by the Microsoft Operating system Windows. Its a pretty unique situation and i think that it requires measurements to limits Microsofts control for the sake of competition.
- str3ama, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3better yet dogpile or go.
- zjbird, on 05/10/2009, -2/+5Well, Linux and Firefox are different companies. Microsoft uses its operating system dominance to distribute one of it's own software products. Also, Linux doesn't have the market dominance to matter.
When it comes down to it, the whole idea of restricting Microsoft in this way is ridiculous. Apple does it too. You can uninstall the software if you want, it's not like windows doesn't allow other browsers *cough* *iPhone* *cough* - Schmich, on 05/10/2009, -2/+5Agreed and I'm really not a Microsoft fan at all. I don't understand what they want to do, make Microsoft release the OS without a browser? That's almost like selling a mutli-function watch but without the time. But then again I think Microsoft gave a bad excuse...
- benologist, on 05/10/2009, -1/+4The reason you can't completely uninstall it is because countless applications have been embedding IE controls for the last decade. If it was gone completely then a lot of software would just crash.
- alamko1999, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3I think it have something to do with what the software does, IE does everything you need in order to connect to the web and surf. Other software like paint meanwhile only does simple drawing only thus its so far from graphics software. Like IE, media player was also on antitrust because its trying to do everything.
- dragossh, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3Wanna remove Safari? Drag Safari to Trash, empty. Done.
Wanna remove IE? Unless you use Windows 7, good luck trying to. - Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -0/+3Apple is not a monopoly. You don't understand the market period. For apple to become a monopoly they would have to be found one in a court of law. The iPod market has tons of competition. Now if all music was in apple's proprietary format and this would only play on apple's players then a court of law most likely would rule them a monopoly. But this isn't even close nor will ever happen. You still can buy CDs. You can buy digital music online via amazon and a slew of others. You can play your music on your PC. You can play it in your car. On other players. Just about anywhere. Nothing precludes you from playing apple's music fomat on other systems. Just because a company is in top doesn't make them a monopoly. Apple is so far from being a monopoly it isn't funny.
- wallclimber, on 05/10/2009, -2/+4@esc27,
In Win 7, Microsoft may "let" you turn IE off (how kind of them), but in reality it's the equivalent of putting blinders on the user, because IE is actually still there, you just don't see it anymore.
You can't choose to completely uninstall it.
As far as Microsoft's "past" bad behavior being only in the past, you need to pay more attention. For Microsoft, the past was merely practice for the future. These days they are more disgusting than ever. With all that practice they've gotten really, really good at being bad.
If they'd spent half that effort and money on making better products they wouldn't be so disliked today, but that was their own choice, let them live with it...everyone else is moving on. - Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -0/+2Bundle a binary that will wget a browser of choice. Innovated in the linux industry.
Past behavior in the extremely complex field of OS development and software development damages and even cripples the industry for decades. That is why we work hard to ensure the likes of microsoft never happen again. - adragontattoo, on 05/10/2009, -2/+4without IE you cant use Windows Update.
- ahneema, on 05/10/2009, -3/+5wait I am missing something? I thought this article is about what you have just said.. They're complaining against it since they say it's unfair to other competing browsers.. If Microsoft chooses stop installing IE, then wouldn't be appropriate Linux distributions to stop installing Firefox as well?. So far I haven't read an article urging Linux to stop doing it.
- MicrosoftBob, on 05/10/2009, -0/+2They could do it similar to the way that they implement installing AV/malware software; security center gives you an alert and you have a list of providers to choose from.
- wbkang, on 05/10/2009, -0/+2Dude...CHM is deprecated.
- DickBreath, on 05/10/2009, -1/+3You miss the point. It is the PC makers who should decide what components they want to bundle in their PC product. The PC maker chooses the OS, the power supply, the DVD-ROM drive, etc. The PC maker should choose the browser, the media player and other software components when such a choice exists.
Saying that a user is free to download and install any other browser is like saying a user is free to replace an inferior power supply with a better one. The answer to this is that I'll just buy a PC from someone who uses a better power supply. Microsoft wants to take away my choice to buy a PC that comes with a better browser preinstalled.
Similarly, a PC maker is free to preload any browser they want on a Linux PC as well. If Dell wanted to sell a Linux PC without FireFox because they wanted to use a different browser component in their product, nobody is stopping them. - zjbird, on 05/10/2009, -1/+3What complaint? Did you read the article?
- EEdesigner, on 05/11/2009, -0/+2Google is at least as sleezy as Microsoft - but at least their stuff works. I can only imagine a "Vista" version of Google Earth.
- Hermmunster, on 05/10/2009, -2/+4MSdid not create the market by a long shot. How old are you?
- benologist, on 05/10/2009, -2/+4Browser vendors need to start asking why people aren't switching. It's 2009, people know about other browsers, we've been beaten to death by Firefox users for the last fwe years everywhere a kid found a textfield to type in, Opera's on every Wii, Safari on every Mac, iPhone etc, and accidentally installed at least once on every pc.
The problem I suspect is that they're competing to be the #1 piece of software that nobody really cares about - it's an address bar and a big space underneath that shows them the internet. Who designed the 100 pixels above that address bar is increasingly less relevant and more boring as their features merge and we're reduced to comparisons that show one is milliseconds faster if you're bashing refresh on some test suite. -
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