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- XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16It's not a problem with linux "Not supported" is a problem with users, they either have an outdated view on Linux (I.E: They used it many years ago and still think it's the same right now) or they buy "Designed for Windows" computers and then think these machines will work well with Linux. Another thing is "Linux doesn't support it" which again is false, because it's the manufacturers who don't support Linux.
Linux needs more articles like "debunking myths" articles which tell people that all they learned about Linux until now is either very false or very true (In the good sense). - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12@koregaonpark:
It's not so much about official drivers for your particular hardware. Theo de Raadt is right in so far as manufacturers should make their hardware API's open, and forget about providing drivers.
In the case of your motherboard, let's say they did provide windows and linux drivers. what if i want to run OpenBSD, or Solaris (which I do)? I'd run in to the same problem: namely that the manufacturers are only supporting 2 pieces of crappy software instead of opening up the specs for everyone.
Quite aside from my antipathy towards Linux, I still think "supporting linux" is an ignoble goal, what ought to be happening is manufacturers ought to be supporting openness. - OsakaWilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12I have gotten help from the forums, sometimes several people at once helping me, and the replies to my questions rarely appear more than an hour after I ask (and I'm in an Asian timezone). I have never gotten support this good for any product, let alone an operating system.
If you define support as people who successfully help you solve your problems, then Linux has the best support in the world.
As for products supporting Linux, everything on my system ran immediately. - mooninite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@koregaonpark, many manufacturers are offering Linux drivers now. I even found Linux drivers on my new ASUS motherboard CD! I simply compiled and boom my network card worked. It usually takes a few months for said drivers to hit the mainline kernel though. The manufacturer rarely follows the kernel coding guidelines and are 9 times out of 10 filled with bugs.
Every day that passes, Linux grows stronger; it takes Microsoft a decade to match that progress. - koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10"is a problem with users, they [...] have an outdated view on Linux"
I think the real people at fault here are local computer shops and salesmen. NOBODY I've come across in the Indian tech industry knows anything about Linux. I had to guide a technician from Reliance Broadband over the phone on how to set up an Internet connection on... wait for it... Ubuntu, the "easiest" distro of them all. Instead of frustrating the customer, it was the technician who was getting irritated at his inability to make use of a computer.
"it's the manufacturers who don't support Linux"
Very true. I had a Mecrury motherboard that was just as good as my current Intel one, but offered no Linux drivers, only Windows ones. The onboard LAN and graphics weren't detected and I was unable to find a solution. It's a real shame that hardware manufacturers only support 1 crappy piece of software (Windows). - ISVDamocles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Unfortunately, businesses define "support" as "who can I blame when something goes wrong and my boss/shareholders are looking for blood?"
And the "Support" doesn't care if they get blamed by a small-time company for their failure since it doesn't affect their (the support's) bottom line (as they already got your money, and you're too small to cause negative publicity).
This definition of support does a lot to support one thing: people too lazy to do their job properly. - koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"manufacturers ought to be supporting openness."
@ BrainInAJar: I agree with you. Linux might become the most widely used operating system, and then BSD users might not get the support they deserve. Openness is important.
PS: Don't call Linux crappy on a Shuttleworth thread ;-) - XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5If drivers will be open for Linux, it will be a matter of hours that someone would port the drivers from the Linux Kernel to other *nix kernels
- czer323, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5You read the link. You obviously know the reasons for why he's dropping the support. Don't be a douche.
Besides, it'll just get moved to the ports section and the community will still update it. You'll still be able to run Ubuntu on a PPC computer. It just won't be a computer you could call in for phone support. - ISVDamocles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@koregaonpark: I was being facetious.
But I can't say I've ever heard of that motherboard company before, so there was a possibility they *did* spell it that way... - zugu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@consonance: If Redhat doesn't charge for their OS, where's the download link?
- Flamekebab, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ mooninite
..getting softer; every minute Microsoft stays in that room, they get weaker, and every minute Linux squats in the bush, it gets stronger. Each time Microsoft looks around, the walls move in a little tighter.. - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"If drivers will be open for Linux, it will be a matter of hours that someone would port the drivers from the Linux Kernel to other *nix kernels"
except the GPL is too restrictive for that, so it involves an arduous cleanrooming of the drivers - stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Consonance: I think yes. Linux on the desktop is finally getting to be a viable alternative. Look at the features of the latest digiKam- it is similar to the iPhoto type programs, if not better with the RAW and 16bit support in the latest version. OO.o is very stable and works great. There are solid instant messaging options, and of course Firefox. So Linux on the desktop is coming full steam ahead. It is quite usable, and I'm glad Shuttleworth is putting forth effort to bring it forward on the table for the masses, though I don't agree with his views on the PPC arch.
I think people just want something that works. Most don't care to have pretty icons wiz by when you alt-tab (Vista) that require 2GB of ram. I think MS is on the wrong track.
And Linux is free. That is something Microsoft will never be able to beat. I'm rather passionate about Linux, so take my comments with a grain of salt. - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If OSX supported junk $200 peecees from walmart, then probably.
But they don't, and will almost certainly not in the future, so there are other places to look for people who are sick of windows. Namely, the opensource operating systems (Solaris, *BSD, and Linux) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Ok how about this "alot of hardware vendors dont/refuse to support it" which is true, and keeps alot of people away from linux
- stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I take it you've never heard of Redhat.
http://www.redhat.com
Their main business is Linux support. They seem to be doing okay, and generating plenty of profit. And lots of @redhat.com guys do develop many parts of Gnome, and the Linux kernel. So they are making profit, and improving Linux. - Niten, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In theory, manufacturers are free to provide their drivers under a BSD-style license, so that they could be used both on Linux and other open systems.
Not going to happen, though, at least until FreeBSD reaches a much greater audience. - stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Why then does Shuttleworth want to drop support for PPC Linux? I read all these grand statements he makes about Ubuntu being everywhere, but in reality:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCReview
He will have to change the Ubuntu logo wording to:
"Linux for Human Beings....with a PC" - consonance, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Think about it economically. Linux customers make up such a small segment of the market that developing management tools and drivers compatible with Linux is essentially considered a waste of time. PC repair shops don't support it, because 99% of their customers don't use it. Demanding that PC support shops support Linux is like traveling to a previously undiscovered planet and becoming angry that the creatures there don't speak your language. In economic terms, the time spent to learn Linux is greater than the time that will be spent actually helping Linux users. Yes, you can learn Linux, but is it worth it?
- eclectro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1pervasive support == device drivers, compatibility for binaries among distros, third party apps people can buy off the shelf
- koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree with you, mooninite.
Companies that sell their products in more than a few countries are making progress. Sadly, it's the more popular local ones like Mecrury that aren't. - stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Corporations exist to create profits, not to improve something, just like Jon Stewart; Jon Stewart writes jokes to get laughs, not to change the world. Any improvements to the political spectrum he provides are what's known as positive externalities."
Well, I gave you the example of Redhat, which contradicts your cute little textbook story here. I'm not sure what you are asking. Also similarly is Suse, and Mandriva. It's all about support. That is their business model, and main income. And Suse and Mandriva also help better the product. Look at kernel change logs and see the many @suse.de or @suse.com emails of Suse employees making fixes in the Linux kernel. - stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes, stoffe I did read the entire article. That's why I posted the first post, in the first place. If Shuttleworth thinks support is key, why would he also be dropping support for PPC? It's hypocritical of him.
He brags about Ubuntu's support for Linux, but then he himself is dropping PPC support at the same time. Sorry you cannot comprehend this. - koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ ISVDamocles: The spelling mistake(s) are mine, not theirs. I'm using Epiphany atm and it lacks spellcheck.
- cantormath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would say that the typical computer person knows NOTHING about Linux, so they are delusional about its applications/implementations and complain about things that are not broken.
- Flamekebab, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes, it doesn't make sense to support linux, when linux users are willing to pay a premium for properly supported hardware. The OS may be free, but there's good money to be made providing support for users.
- consonance, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Red Hat is a different model. Red Hat (RHAT) is a small corporation that has two purposes: To develop a product and provide support for it. They are like a smaller version of Microsoft, except that they don't charge for the OS, and their main business is supporting Red Hat, not all forms of Linux. Red Hat is not a computer support business. Providing support for your own product doesn't prove anything, except that you can run a business. As a corporation, it is their obligation to provide support.
Since you mentioned it, their profit record is acutally questionable. In 2005, Red Hot lost $321 million. In their last quarter they lost $28 million. Their stock is down nearly eight dollars since September. It's not a great record. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Making it very easy to find support via homecomputerhelp.org (preview via http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:xgYi_4hZcO8J:www.steltenpower.com/homecomputerhelp.org/+homecomputerhelp )
Plus making it public what the traditional support usually means (getting a few free phone-calls to a helpdesk where often the phone is answered by someone who can only answer dummie questions). The support usually doesn't mean warranty, and a chance to have the product adapted to your own needs is a lot smaller for sure too - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's a little bit old, but most still counts, try this article: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:gd8JxetcnK4J:steltenpower.com/OS4entrepreneurs.pdf+OS4entrepreneurs.pdf
- consonance, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@stmiller
I'm not even talking about usability. What I mean by asking the worth of using Linux is asking whether or not firms gain something from supporting Linux. It could be the greatest on OS for all I care, but if no one uses it then firms will just be adding to their costs by taking the time and money to train their technicians. It's all about the profit. Corporations exist to create profits, not to improve something, just like Jon Stewart; Jon Stewart writes jokes to get laughs, not to change the world. Any improvements to the political spectrum he provides are what's known as positive externalities. If Apple creates an operating system that makes it a billion times easier to edit a movie, that's great, but the only thing the executives want to know is if it's generating a profit. - motters, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Three years ago I would have used linux for an industrial project if I'd been able to get hold of software drivers for a touch screen and a particular networking protocol. Dissapointingly the hardware minufacturers only supported Windows. However, this situation is changing and these days more manufacturers are under pressure to produce Linux drivers, since there is a clear economic incentive to choose Linux for large scale deployments.
- skwead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I totally agree with him. Let start with something... a bit more specific... like Ubuntu Server 6.10.
Clean install + bind + lamp. But I want this box be a mail server for a few people too, so I install Cyrus imapd and whatever else required to run it.
But there is a surprise - running imapd brings poor box on its knees with load average over 10, nothing works. Turns out that 6.10 has berkeley db 4.4 but imapd which is shipped with 6.10 was compiled against old 4.3 version.
So here you go - something that needs to be fixed (and yes, theres a bug filled about this more that month ago). Guess what, as of yet, no progress and one is even assigned to look at this...
I'd say yea, pervasive support... - stoffe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You apparently did not read TFA. That's not at all what he is talking about. He is talking about support, as in the kind you can get when something goes wrong, not as in how many architectures does it run. You RTFA, then come back trolling with some real ammo instead.
- Heavy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@mooninite
By_guidelines_you_mean_to_use_underscore_all_te_freeking_time_for_some_of_
us_it's_painfull_to_look_att_code_that_uses_underscore_it_makes_me_wanna
_stab_my_eyes_out_mutch_like_hungerian_notasion! - tehmoth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0XVampireX: yeah, because linux drivers never contain magic numbers or convuluted and badly named functions, so they are always easy to port. Oh and they never rely on blobs either.
- ISVDamocles, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3@koregaonpark: I have to say I'd expect such crappy support from a company that couldn't even spell "Mercury" right. ;)
- stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Yes, but did you RTFA this digg story is about?
"Shuttleworth: Linux needs pervasive support"
Don't you find that hypocritical? - greenreefer, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1You knowing what?
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C D E etc, there ,Ok.
To
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Thank you.
Sincerely
Linus."
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*****
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