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- zip22, on 10/12/2007, -7/+33if its a paperweight now, nothing will change. if it is running ubuntu now, nothing will change. you simply won't get updates.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+33@OmegaNine
Thats gotta be why xbox360, ps3, and Wii use it in their systems.
Canonical is right to kill the PPC build. Since apple went x86 no computer uses PPC. Linux is already a niche market, and PPC is an even smaller sub-market. Like much of the linux community, if there is enough interest there is no reason someone cannot pick up the work. It a minority within a minority community really. - etnu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22The Linux *desktop market* is small. The linux *server market* is huge. Very few server-side products (aside from those made by Microsoft) are built these days without Linux in mind.
- sanguinemoon, on 10/12/2007, -7/+28@OmegaNine
Learn something about processors and get back to us. - Sairgem, on 10/12/2007, -12/+26"Why waste all that time with such a small audiences?"
Isn't that what most companies are saying about linux in general? Hypocrite. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12The reason Canonical is thinking about dropping the PowerPC port is because further PowerPC desktop machines are becoming less and less available, especially with Apple stopping the manufacture of their PPC machines in favor of the Intel processors. That leaves practically zero commercial desktop manufacturers making PPC machines (there are a few tiny ones, but that's about it).
I believe personally they should release one last port for the PPC platform, Feisty. After that, the userbase of new users to PPC will fall so dramatically; the older machines will no longer be able to run current software (and if they are, they will do so piss-poorly). For the people who still want to attempt to make use of recent software on the older PPC machines, there will always be other distributions for them. Debian, Ubuntu's progenitor, would be the distro of choice; Ubuntu users can get used to it very quickly as it's very similar in command-set, and Debian's mission in life is pretty much to support every esoteric piece of software and hardware possible with Free software.
It's a shame to see PPC go out of desktop usage (even if it's becoming more prevalent in embedded and game platforms). - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17Two quick points:
1. Hypocrisy - low market share means one should ignore? Hello! Ubuntu/Canonical -- You are making Linux, correct?
2. I discussed the technical details of getting a PPC port a few weeks back. It's a matter of hours (maybe a day) per release. - otatop, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"Your a moron"
Irony, thy name is OmegaNine. - MikeZila, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Nobody is going to make you throw out all the livecds you currently have burnt, and I'm sure the isos of said livecds will remain on the internet at some place. I'm also sure the people at the forums won't turn you away if you go there to ask questions.
Just because it's no longer supported by the developers doesn't mean you have to stop using it. - drag, on 10/12/2007, -12/+19Use Debian.
That's one of the nice things about Debian being a non-profit. It will support a architecture as long as there are people willing to support it and they are able to keep up with the rest of Debian's supported platforms.
This has paid off for the Linux community in more then a few ways. For instance Debian supported a couple 64bit platforms for a long time, well before AMD64 came out. Supported 64bit ports are Sun Sparc, Alpha, IA-64.
Since Debian is essentially supports almost all important software aviable for Free software Linux it helped programmers know that their software was 64bit safe and was relatively bug free for these platforms. This utimately made it very easy for companies like Suse and Redhat turn around and support AMD64 when it came out.
Of course there are other 64bit Linux distros that supported those platforms, but nothing that came close to Debian's wide range of aviable software.
That is why in regards to Free software AMD64 port was very easy compared to other OSes. For instance Windows still lacks a mature desktop system for native AMD64 systems and most propriatory software aviable for Linux and Windows lacks very good 64bit support.
Then other benifits are things like they made it relatively easy for Linux to downscale also. If you notice Linux systems destined for embedded systems like the Nokia 770 are all Debian-based. This is because Debian not only supports x86, which is common, but most other common embedded systems such as ARM and PowerPC.
Also when manufacturers try out new platforms and other weird stuff then Debian is often the first choice.
I have a PowerPC laptop and a x86 desktop. As far as Gnome and all the other software I use on a daily basis both desktops are _identical_. User preferences and file formats and everything is 100% compatable. Essentially there is no difference between them.
The differences only matter to propriatory software support. Video drivers, flash, and some codecs.
So if Ubuntu ultimately abandons PowerPC then just use Debian. If you miss Ubuntu then just use Gnome, install the default packages aviable for Ubuntu, and copy over the Ubuntu theme and wallpaper... then you won't be able to tell the difference. - damiam, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10It'll be a long time before G5's are seriously taxed by "current software".
- blackjack75, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"2. I discussed the technical details of getting a PPC port a few weeks back. It's a matter of hours (maybe a day) per release."
That would be assuming all code to include in such release has already been tested on PowerPC and no testing is done. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11It would be completely illogical to end PPC support. The day will eventually arrive when Apple announces the absolute death of PowerPC. Ubuntu will become extremely popular on older Macs.
- sanguinemoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+764 bit and dual-core support are in the kernel, not in the userland of the respective distros. In other words, Ubuntu has little to do with it.
- zm634, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Funny, just the other night I put Ubuntu on my 1.25ghz iMac g4, and I just got finished reinstalling OSX because there's no like, third party support for anything for linux-ppc. I see why he's doing it. Like sfacets said, no skype, no flash, no nvidia support. We got nothing here!
- BWhaler, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I'm a huge Apple guy, but the submitter has a point.
There is a big, and growing, group of unhappy customers due to the disgraceful quality problems Apple has been having--notable in the laptop line. Uneven backlighting. Heat. Noise. Poor build quality.
Apple really needs to get their act together. And Steve Jobs needs to realize its the innovation and quality which end up in the paying customers' hands which matters. Not in the demo units hand picked for his review or use.
I love Apple. But the threat nowadays is not Redmond. It's their ability to scale their business with quality.
A long time ago, Jobs made the mistake that the enemy was IBM, when it was Gates and Microsoft. I hope he does not let history repeat itself by mistaken the real threat to all of his and Apple's hard work.
Innovation without quality always results in failure. Obscure failure. - TheTankengine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I think you need to do some research on the difference between "ironic" and "slightly coincidental"
- fanboydcs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6No!!! please do not cancel it, I use the livecd for data recovery on failing HFS drives, I really really really need the ppc port... Give those older fast machines some life!
- bobmagoo, on 10/12/2007, -11/+15@sq377
i agree, the apple market share is something like 5% and the linux market share is less than 1%(no source for these numbers, just what i've heard/read)
i can't imagine how small the userbase is for something that combines such small percentages, especially since these shiny new intel macs are rolling off the lines and everybody wants to go out and buy the latest one(i'm a mac user, i understand the temptation to upgrade for no apparent reason)
and my thoughts were that linux exists because windows sucks and costs too much. so what would be the point of replacing OSX with another unix based OS that is going to be inferior? (yeah ubuntu is awesome, but compared to OSX, i mean come on) - elvisshock, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7hey common lets not sabotage the development just for the "kicks" of saving something. The fact is that if the development team doesn't have to bother about porting future Ubuntu versions onto PPC, they can effectively use their time in developing more features.
Do enough people really use PPC to justify its development? - BladeMelbourne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There's always Fedora PPC.
- scooterfish, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6It's linux. You know...Open Source. GPL, free as in speech, not beer and all that? If somebody wants to pick it up and continue maintaining it, even as a fork, they can.
Quit whining. "Oooh nooo! they're also stopping support of Linux on Altair!! Waah!" - whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why are you guys digging him down? It's true, people pay a premium for Apple equipment. (at least until recently, Mac's have gone down considerably in cost with the move to x86). But, the ones who did buy the PPC based Macs, did pay a premium. So why wouldn't they upgrade?
Anyway, Ubuntu is based off of Debian and Debian produces a PPC version, so why is it that much of a problem to continue developing for the PPC?
Another thing to remember is that Ubuntu hasn't really established itself in the server market yet, so the only real systems that they have to worry about are the older PPC Macs. Sure, the G5 doesn't have a difficult time with anything these days, but how long is it until it does start having problems? We all know how fast technology is evolving these days...
However, if Ubuntu does plan on gaining market share in the server environment, it would be a wise decision to stick with PPC.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Its 1am here better get to bed. - AlphaMack, on 09/26/2008, -0/+3"There's always Fedora PPC."
Actually, they're thinking about dumping PPC as well:
http://lwn.net/Articles/211152/ - shauncullen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3PPC is important, who wouldn't want their old PPC macs (will the PS3 and X360 run ubuntu ppc? that would be very cool). My first taste of Ubuntu was in PPC form on my old Powerbook. If it gets killed, that would be a shame.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@bobmagoo:
You have some valid points, but I have to add my 2¢.
> ... shiny new intel macs are rolling off the lines and everybody wants to go out and buy the latest one(i'm a mac user, i understand the temptation to upgrade for no apparent reason)
There are lots of reasons! But I won't get into them because it's irrelevant to the discussion.
> and my thoughts were that linux exists because windows sucks and costs too much.
No that's not true. read about the history of linux on wikipedia or something if you're really curious.
> so what would be the point of replacing OSX with another unix based OS that is going to be inferior? (yeah ubuntu is awesome, but compared to OSX, i mean come on)
I agree the desktop experience on OS X is better, but when Apple stops supporting older machines some people want to use a maintained OS and turn to Linux. Some people find that Linux performs better than newer OS X versions on old machines as well.
There are things supported the Linux kernel that OS X doesn't do (eg. FUSE), but to the average user that's probably not important. - Tarmas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I agree that they should end it. Why waste all that time with such a small audiences? I think they should shift more effort to 64 bit and better dual core support."
What small audiences? Apple has released Intel-based Macs something like a year ago. And where do you think all those G3's, G4's and G5's have gone? Not to mention Power Macs from the 60x series. Yes, they're still there, powered up by users every single morning.
How much percent of Macs in active use are PowerPC based, especially in a commercial environment? My bet is around 90 percent. - thebiscuit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5PS3, Xbox 360, both use PowerPC. So keep making the port and adapt it to work on those two.
I did try running PowerPC Kubuntu on my iBook and it ran piss slow (well compared to Tiger) and was stuck at 640x480. - MrMacMan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3er?
The submiter is talking about OS support for PPC... not the 'quality problems' that apple has in recent years. You specifically mention backlighting which i know apple didn't use until 2003 with the PowerBook G4 -- a relatively recent model.
The submitter is hoping that those using Ubuntu on the PPC (dating back to 1997 withthe G3 processor) will not be abandoned by yet another group. As apple has already moved on with their switch to intel and 'Classic' aka Mac Os versions prior to 'X' lack support and development they want a platform or OS they can rely on. For many, Ubuntu is that platform.
-- MrMacMan - dc2447, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It ain't just macs (sic) that run PPC.
I really can't believe they are considering this. - rtini, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Apple is still selling refurbished PowerPC Macs on their site. They will continue to support Mac OS X on PowerPC Macs for years.
- MrMacMan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I suppose destroying their growing userbase of useable older computers that run on PPC is a good business practice?
I dunno, but i thought that Ubuntu for the PPC was based around the fact that people who still want to use their computers -- could -- with a good OS to boot.
I feel that the people using or switching to Ubuntu because apple put the PPC into 'EOL' mode -- perhaps i'm looking at this the wrong way, but i feel that it can only be expanding when people look for support for their more aging machines instead of buying newer ones...
-- MrMacMan - newbill123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Cross-platform development is problematic, but it can be good to expose those problems. Stop optimizing for PowerPC, but keep non-x86 ports active as a test bed for portability.
Additionally, you will see a flood of PowerPC G5's enter the used computer / hand-me-down market when Adobe finally releases Intel binary versions of their Mac apps in the spring. These are high end machines in terms of GPU's, RAM, and hard disk, yet I'd expect many people will be open to being more "experimental" with something that isn't their "main" computer.
While Apple will still support existing PowerPC hardware for three more years, the PowerPC platform is a prime opportunity for Ubuntu "switchers", IMHO. - spindle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@schestowitz
"1. Hypocrisy - low market share means one should ignore? Hello! Ubuntu/Canonical -- You are making Linux, correct?"
Ubuntu currently has a small part of the market. Ubuntu wants to gain more control of the market. Are you trying to say that Ubuntu should focus on small market platforms in order to achieve a larger share of the market? Perhaps they should make a SPARC and 68k port as well?
Ever since Apple switched to PPC, the market for PPC has dropped dramatically. If they don't cut the port now, they will have to eventually. You have to remember, only a certain amount of Apple users will want to use Linux, and an even smaller amount will want to use Ubuntu. I know there's at least two other distros which have a PPC port. I'm sure there are distros which support Apple's old 68k platform as well. And chances are, if Ubuntu stops official support for PPC, a few users will step up and create an unofficial PPC port of Ubuntu. That's the beauty of open source. - mooninite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Look at the kernel for better 64-bit and dual core support. What do you mean by this anyway? Linux has far superior support of both compared to other OSes. I'm enjoying a Core 2 Duo with dynamic clocking and x86_64 right now on Linux. More of my CPU is being utilized than if I booted up Windows XP.
Ubuntu doesn't give you 64-bit or dual core support if that's what you've been led to believe... it doesn't cure cancer. Oh wait, they told you it did that too? - zhulien, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3um, what's Apple got to do with anything? I want Ubuntu PPC for my Pegasos 2.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Canonical doesn't turn a profit, but they spend money shipping free CDs and the like. I can understand this decision, even though it isn't nice for a chunk of people. There are other great distros you can use though that fully support PPC. I like Gentoo and Debian, though I don't recommend Gentoo for older PPC machines (or older x86 boxes for that matter).
Other than that if you can write code or documentation, track changes to Ubuntu and upstream packages, or anything else then you should go and volunteer right now to help maintain Ubuntu on your architecture. - whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, pretty much every mainstream distro has a PPC branch. The only reason this story is getting so much attention is because Ubuntu has become a buzzword, its not _that_ great.
- OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think PS3 lets you install Ubuntu/PPC on it. is that a big enough user base?
- lwatcdr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3So move to YellowDog.
They support the PPC. That is one of the nice things about Linux. You don't have to be married to a single distro. - cynicist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Thats the thing, they are old ppc macs. Whats wrong with using an older (though still supported) version of your OS?
- SniperSlap, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2They should. But it is a small target, can't blame them really. Just - what are all those macs gonna do then? Go in the garbage? Ubuntu is about an OS for everyone.
PowerPCs are good and lots of people have them still. Not to mention new PPC devices are still coming out. What if PS3 was popular enough to warrant an Ubuntu distro? Keep your options open is what I say - and impress a lot of people along the way. - mickstephenson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@drag, i'm no expert on apt, and the differences in package naming between ubuntu and debian but wouldn't just changing an ubuntu sources.list to debian unstable sources work? very good point btw i dont know why you are being dugg down
- grubesteak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Maybe, just maybe, if they had made it work decently on the PPC platform in the first place, it would have a bigger base.
Ubuntu on the PPC platform doesn't really compare to x86 in my opinion. I tried to get it to work on my PowerBook, but it was such a hassle I gave up and put Mac OS X back on. - drag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1""@drag, i'm no expert on apt, and the differences in package naming between ubuntu and debian but wouldn't just changing an ubuntu sources.list to debian unstable sources work? very good point btw i dont know why you are being dugg down""
Oh ya the differences in naming are going to cause problems. But you misunderstood my point a bit.
The thing is is that Ubuntu is essentially Debian. Even though you have all the hype and all the Debian vs Ubuntu rheteric what packages Ubuntu ships are going to be 95% rebadged Debian.
Here is essentially how it goes:
Debian 'main' == Ubuntu 'main' plus 'universe'.
Ubuntu universe is essentially Debian packages taken from Debian Unstable. In Ubuntu 'main' you will find the most differences. Like a updated Gnome or the latest version of X.org that Debian won't get right away. The nice thing about Debian is that the packages are all supported with security updates and bug reporting, which only 'main' is for Ubuntu.
Debian 'contrib' + 'non-free' == Ubuntu 'multiverse'.
Here you will find packages that are non-free and don't meet Debian's 'DFSG' document defination of 'Free software'. 'Non-Free' will contain most of your propriatory drivers and java and other stuff that is currently not legal to modify or redistribute or use in specific circumstances. 'Contrib' is otherwise Free software that depends on non-free software to run or would be pointless without it.
Debian has no equivelent for Ubuntu 'restrictive'. For that you have to go and use third party repositories.
A good example would be "www.debian-multimedia.org", which contains support for restricted media formats and stuff like libdvdcss for cracking DVD encryption. But that is, of course, not all they do. For instance you would get your packages for MythTV there.
So with the repository differences out of the way there are a few other differences between Ubuntu and Debian.
such as:
Debian, of course, does not use the same defautl install of Ubuntu. They will do 'desktop' and 'laptop' installs, but obviously that is not the same.
Ubuntu makes subtle modifications to Gnome were as Debian will give you the default setup by the gnome guys (with Debian's background).
Ubuntu heavily patches the Linux kernel, backporting changes to add support for new hardware. Debian you would have to upgrade your kernel for the same hardware support.
Then, of course, Ubuntu has it's new Init system for edgy that is not aviable on Debian (at least not by default).
But this has little impact on actual system. With Debian your kernel is going to be more stable. With Ubuntu it's going to support slighly more software.
how the Debian release systems work is different also:
Debian experimental == Individual Debian project's playgrounds for packages. For instance you can pull the Nvidia beta drivers from experimental. Not recommended you use this for anything important.
Debian Unstable == Debian CVS development, pretty much. Large amount of package churn for people that want the newest stuff. Generally speaking this is more up to date then Ubuntu except for right after Ubuntu releases a new version. Developers generally track this and people interested in testing and bugfixing. Typically your going to see yourself downloading 250+ megs of new software every month to keep up with Unstable.
Debian Testing == After packages are used and shown not to be broken or have serious bugs then they are incorporated into Debian Testing. Debian Testing is destined to be the new 'stable' once Debian gets it's ***** straight. For personal desktop or workstation you want to use this. The package churn is not significant and by having incremental updates you miss out on all the trama users have to go through in Fedora or Ubuntu when upgrading to a new version. This can be compared to using the latest Ubuntu release, but how they are managed are different.
Debian Stable == about the equivelent of 'Ubuntu Long Term Support'. You will only get bug fixes and security updates. NO package churn. For stuff you want to 'set and forget'.
You would want to use this if your deploying servers or are running many workstations or desktops so that your administration overhead can be kept to a minimal. Also if your a dial-up user you probably want this as the updates can be completed in a resonable amount of time over a 32Kb/s line.
For Debian stable what I like to do is use it for a server. Then when I need paticular packages that may be to be newer then what is aviable then I will either use pre-compiled packages from backports.org or actually use deb-src lines from Testing repository and recompile Debian packages for Stable. That way you don't end up with a nasty hybrid of testing + stable which can be a pain to run and is not supported by anybody.
As for using Ubuntu packages in Debian it is not recommended. In the rare case were packages for Ubuntu are not aviable for Debian then using the deb-src repository and recompiling packages for Debian is usually going to be the recommended route. Otherwise installing Dapper and maybe some Edgy packages into Debian Testing may work, but you want to keep it to a minimum.
The other major difference is that Debian IRC and other help places have a reputation for being huge dicks, while Ubuntu cultivates a more friendly persona.
Keeping these differences in mind you should be able to make a transition from Debian to Ubuntu (and visa versa) with no undo stress. - rudegeek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Too bad. There's a lot of Macs, Pegasos I/II, there's Efika from Genesi. Also, there's new board to be produced by them. I run Pegasos PPC with Ubuntu. Please, don't kill this branch, unless it take a lot of resources from you, guys!
- happycube, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The old machine still exists even after the upgrade, and having Linux to run on it is nice indeed.
- jsully, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Though the cell certainly shares some design aspects of the traditional Power PC, saying that it's based on the PowerPC is like saying I've got this shiny new Core2Duo system, which is based on the 486dx. While technically accurate, it's just stupid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)#Power_Processor_Element - rtini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"There is a big, and growing, group of unhappy customers due to the disgraceful quality problems Apple has been having--notable in the laptop line. Uneven backlighting. Heat. Noise. Poor build quality.
Apple really needs to get their act together."
Your points are dead-on, except Apple has already addressed those issues. The current Core 2 Duo laptops have solved all the problems, and Apple will fix any existing Intel Mac laptops under warranty. Issues are par for the course with version 1.0 products that are a drastic redesign... - stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Here's a couple more good links:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/p/linux/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_POWER -
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