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Microsoft Lied to Novell. See a Patten Here?

eweek.com — "Novell filed an 8-K recently in which it said that you (Microsoft) have agreed not to do a similar deal with another Linux vendor to encourage the adoption of Linux and Windows virtualization solutions through a subscription certificate program."

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  • XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -5/+59Of course it lied, what did you expect?
    • chrono13, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11(abusing reply)

      Relevant text from the article:

      :: (interviewer, the other text is Balmer)

      ::Novell filed an 8-K recently in which it said that you have agreed not to do a similar deal with another Linux vendor to encourage the adoption of Linux and Windows virtualization solutions through a subscription certificate program. Doesn't that go against all your talk of wanting to get agreements with the other Linux vendors?

      We do want to be open to everybody, but there is no limitation in the agreement that prevents us from working with the other distribution vendors to get a similar set of intellectual property patent protections for their customers, and we very much would like to make that happen as it's good for customers and the other distribution vendors.

      However, the ability we have to offset customer costs associated with that transition is a Novell-focused thing and what that comes down to is that you get some advantage to being first. It was a fairly substantive step for Novell to make this transition and we will help those customers make that transition.

      ::Are you talking to Red Hat in this regard on an ongoing basis?

      We have been and we do communicate with Red Hat, and in fact we continue to reach out and want to work with them and want to structure a relationship where Red Hat customers can be assured of the same thing that Novell customers are.

      ::Do you think that's likely?

      You'll have to ask Red Hat that question. I hope so. We really want to do this.
    • chrono13, on 10/12/2007, -3/+32They misrepresented the deal to Novell. Novell, I would wager, was under the impression that MS was going to start this fear campaign, and entered into a deal with Microsoft so that they would be immune from it and potentially become the top Linux vendor.

      The deal talks of exclusivity, but Ballmer mentions that the deal, as exclusive at it sounds, has limitations, and those limitations allow Microsoft to offer this "exclusive" deal to other vendors... so long as it isn't the exact same deal.

      Novell was greedy, and instead of standing with its competitors against the juggernaut, it let it into the den, in hopes it would kill or at least slow Novell's brothers and sisters (Red Hat, and the others) so that Novell could take the lead.

      Now Microsoft is offering the same amnesty to each in turn. Hinting that those who do not sign will be punished. A protection racket. The strange thing about this "protection" however is that you must first say that you are guilty, and then you will be forgiven (for a price, limited time and scope).

      Linux will survive, but this is the threat much larger than SCO. Microsoft can drag this on for years... the infringing doesn't have to be true (it likely isn't), it just has to sound scary.

      Argumentum ad metam
      Argumentum in terrorem
      The Appeal to Fear
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear
    • tech42er, on 10/12/2007, -9/+10This MS FUD! Can't we have a campaign countering it! Imagine what could;ve happened if we had stopped the RIAA. This is our chance!

      Otherwise, who gives a crap about the "intellectual property"? If they have an actual objection, we'll just change it, right? They only have FUD.
    • hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I don't see it yet as having to admit you're guilty, but as if you ever become guilty by virtue of technological and legal "progress", you're covered.
    • chrono13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"I don't see it yet as having to admit you're guilty, but as if you ever become guilty by virtue of technological and legal "progress", you're covered."

      That's what these two guys said. All I had to do was pay them money, sign the agreement, do as I was told, and they would protect me from... "accidents".

      I was confused, so they explained that if I don't pay, I could call them Accident and Pain.

      It's called a protection racket. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket

      It's illegal, but can be a gray area, especially in proving it.
    • streak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1It's unlikely either party (Novell or Microsoft) lied, but they may certainly bend the truth and let the public imagine the worst. For instance, the agreement with Novell might be exclusive for a period of time, but that wouldn't preclude Microsoft from actively *seeking* other partners immediately. Other partners just couldn't be signed up until the period of exclusivity had expired... or unless perhaps unless some insignificant terms of the agreement were altered to make it different from the agreement with Novell. Without access to the actual text of their agreement, it is impossible to tell exactly what's going on.
    • streak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here's a clearer misrepresentation (lie?) from Muglia: "So this deal is a milestone in that it shows how commercial and open-source companies can work together to assure customers that when they acquire Novell SUSE's open-source technology they are in compliance with, and are respecting, all of the intellectual property that exists in the environment."

      All of the IP? Many more companies have IP that might be infringed by the use of Linux than just Microsoft. Just because someone goes with Novell/SUSE now doesn't mean they're immune from IP issues involving other companies. Again, Muglia doesn't actually say customers will be immune, but he makes the implication, which is wrong and possibly unethical, but probably not prosecutable.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"This MS FUD! Can't we have a campaign countering it!"

      I have said this numerous times. MS actively spreads anti-Linux FUD to public officials, businesses and various civic organizations. It is not just a few unrelated incidents but an entire campaign that they spend millions on. MS wants everyone to think that Linux is somehow unprofitable, and even dangerous to business. They've resorted to this now that they can no longer claim Linux performance is worse than Windows.

      The Linux community needs to actively combat this FUD, especially in the governments of the world. Linux is a universal, open OS that scales to work on practically anything, not just PCs. That sounds like the perfect solution to me, compared to a world of multiple proprietary OSes that require re-learning each time.
    • marimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"This MS FUD! Can't we have a campaign countering it!"

      We have already seen campaign like this springing up. First, let us deal with the Novell-MS scandal. Novell needs to get out of Linux business. Let us dump SuSE Linux. If Novell goes down and under, everyone will see the consequences of try to SCREW the alert Linux community. Join this campaign.

      BOYCOTT SuSE Linux!!!!!!!

      http://www.boycottnovell.com

      http://boycott-suse.blogspot.com


      We need to win this battle. Once we do, we will have effectively defeated Microsoft, just like we did with SCO!


  • FunkyWitDaSysTm, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18and now we see what this was all really about. ***** you very much, microsoft. ***** you.
  • kingnomar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3good article !!
    !
  • Snakedal337, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I'd like to see exactly what patents linux infringes on. What exactly is MS selling here, other than scare tactics.
  • MikeSeth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+26Microsoft is successful because it's a shark. It doesn't have the touchy feely ethics that people tend to ascribe to themselves. Microsoft rode a wave of piracy to insert itself into foreign countries to create a dependent community that can be assrap^H^H^H^H^H reaped later on with BSA thugs, TV scares and WGA lies (I love how the WGA says that /you/ might've fallen a victim of piracy, and the good folks at Microsoft are just trying to help). Microsoft has been stealing code when it can, and ideas when it can't. Why? The business folks at Microsoft are great. Relying on Microsoft's promises, contractual or others, is dumb. Novell must be thinking that law applies to Microsoft. What really applies to Microsoft is the law of the jungle. Can Microsoft cheat and lie to make $100,000,000 just to be taken into court years later and pay $50,000,000? Hell yeah. They've been doing that since day one.

    Congratulations Novell, you just ***** yourself over with a Microsoft shaped baseball bat.

    While we were discussing Microsoft's newest security policies and surprising openness towards the open source, they were doing their dirty tricks behind the scenes. They were the ones who "encouraged" the SCO lawsuits trying to instill fear in consumers and maybe, if they got really lucky, screw Linux badly. A bunch of Ballmer articles on the front page here and /. explains exactly what they've been thinking all along. Microsoft owns you.

    Remember Cartman returning from a time trip to the past with a solution to the war issue between flag waving, gun toting rednecks and anti-war hippies? "We can go to any war we want and we can say that we don't want to go to war at the same time!"

    • gregharmon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6People who expect corporations to have abide by their personal moral beliefs and ethics, will always be disappointed. Corporations have one goal and that is to make money. They will bend and twist the legal system in ways that will allow them achieve their goal.

      All corporations do this. If a company seems to do the "right thing" often, then you can be assured they are not doing it because they're nice but instead they're doing it because it will make them the most money, in the long run.

      Disliking any corporation more than another because of it's business practices is a waste of time. They all want to suck your wallet dry, in any way, shape or form. The only people that CARE about you are your family and friends. No one else gives a *****, get used to it. If you want to change the ways in which companies can manipulate the legal system then I suggest you look into politics because that's where things need to change. Wanting companies to abide by "your" rules is like saying jump kicking in Mortal Kombat is cheap because someone is kicking your ass with that technique. But it's part of the game mechanics and so the game can be played that way, so you either change the game mechanics, adapt or stop playing ( stop buying their products ). Bitching and whining wont get you very far and will change nothing.

      To put it another way ... If you "like" Google and other "sweetheart" companies and think they're a great company -- Well you're just being like the girl who thinks her guy "friends" are really just friends and have no goal of screwing her eventually. Gullible.
    • tech42er, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Well then, your analogy disproves your theory, and proves you're a pessimist. A girl CAN have guy friends and businesses CAN be ethical. That's not always true, but it is sometimes. I'm not attacking you, just saying that you're a pessimist and I disagree with both your assertions.
  • geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Wake me up when they file an actual lawsuit. When the light shines on the cockroaches they will scurry, as we found at with SCO. It makes you wonder how anyone affiliated / working at Microsoft can sleep at night knowing they are supporting a vile litigious patent troll of a company which uses threats and litigation rather than innovation to compete.
    • lustre, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Patent troll? Example, please... Just ONE example of a patent infringement suit filed by MS. Just one. I can't find any and I've looked.
    • lustre, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Anyone? Anyone?
    • geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Nope, it's worse, they don't sue they instead leave it up in the air creating uncertainty (the U in FUD) that they might sue for patent infringement. But yeah, you're right that they haven't sued yet, your point, we shouldn't care? You can still be a patent troll and not sue.
    • stoffe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Google "Microsoft patent suit" and you'll find plenty. Some are against MS, true, but there's quite a few filed by them as well.
    • lustre, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Ah. You're right. I found *one* filed just this past August against Belkin. No monetary damages requested. That's the only one I could find.
  • brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I'm surprised anyone has anything to do with Microsoft after their proven track record of SCREWING their partners. They abandoned IBM in the OS/2 project to create their own competing product. Then, they locked Playsforsure out of the Zune, abandoning their former digital media "partners."

    Now, they're trying to screw up Linux, and FUD people into using their "sanctioned" version.

    Do any of these CEOs ever consider what happens to companies that deal with Microsoft, or do the 400-million-dollar bribes interfere with their cognitive function?
    • gregharmon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3400 million dollar bribes would certainly interfere with my cognitive function ... and many other functions.
    • FunkyWitDaSysTm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1ugh, yeah, mine, too...
    • tech42er, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They can't screw Linux. Linux is not a business.
  • knodi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think Novell is haven't 2nd thoughts after the community's out cry and this is a easy way to make them look like a good guy again. PLS.
  • Phssthpok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5patten?
    • loquedesea, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you gotta love the title's implied Brooklyn accent... haha
  • dublinclontarf, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You dance with the devil, your gonna get burned.
  • Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4If this was really about interoperability, MS could have saved $400M and just opened the specs for NTFS and the Office file formats (among other things) and fixed the numerous errors in their products. How many RFC's does Outlook violate? IE7 has 56% compatibility with W3C standards. Just two examples.

    This has nothing to do with any real benefit to customers, least of all choice. Notice that customers can only get the Novell coupons if the choose to run Windows and SuSe *side by side*. Want to run only SuSe? No soup for you.

    This is really about making Novell a bigger and better tool to infect and control FOSS. SCO failed, and if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
  • KingWrecked, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Does America have no laws to cover this?

    In the UK, if I go to someone and say that something they own is mine and they must pay me to use or keep it there's a crime called "obtaining funds by deception" which would allow me to have them arrested and fined or locked up.

    As far as I know, if any offending code existed in Linux, the first stage of a settlement would be to require the defendants to remove/rewrite it so it's no longer a problem. If Microsoft have evidence of such code they should put it on the table and shut up while the FOSS guys enact a remedy. If, like SCO, they have no such evidence whoever started this whispering campaign should be hauled over the coals for what is, ultimately, an act of fraud and then be dealt with in a suitably harsh way to set an example to other conmen.
  • ElectricKetchup, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Not quite as funny as when Microsoft lied and screwed over Apple or IBM. Companies really need to look at Microsoft's corporate history before partnering with them.
  • JrGhoull, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3they go on about how linux has stolen code from MS (meanwhile isnt it a fact that MS has stolen/uses code from linux in some of their software?) i am no software or computer wiz, but i'd like to see them show what they are exactly referring to and read what some of the more intelligent people that know this stuff have to say on the issue. (that is providing that there really IS something and not just some sort of basic code that is in all operating systems)
  • thetango, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2From the 8-K filing available here:

    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/758004/000075800406000109/novl-8k_110706.htm

    "Microsoft agreed that for three years it will not enter into an agreement with any other Linux distributor to encourage adoption of non-Novell Linux/Windows Server virtualization through a program substantially similar to the SLES subscription “certificate” distribution program. "
  • PRlME, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I hate you all for telling Novell not to join the dark forces of Microsoft!
    i would have enjoyed the morning i getting up tomy hot coffee and the news that Novell is no more! It would have served them right!
  • macewan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I find nothing shocking from news that Microsoft screwed over another company. This is their standard/typical way of business.

    • demonsofgoetia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I find it shocking that so many millions of people in the world can be complacent, and continue buying from companies they claim to dislike. People don't band together anymore, the most that a majority can bring themselves to do is to click on a useless internet petition that no one will care about anyway.
  • spankr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2006/pulpit_20061110_001188.html
  • zbeast, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3How can you tell someone over at Microsoft is lieing?
    There lips are moving.
  • Malys, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0Why does everyone hate Microsoft so much? Working (and supporting) a large Windows based environment (over 400 servers) I have to say that the standardization, stability, and support that Microsoft offers is outstanding.

    Maybe that is the biggest difference. Individuals that have no experience in a large corporate environment can sit back and point fingers without any knowledge of how a large Linux environment would be supported. How do you support 40,000 users on Linux?

    Openoffice is the perfect example. It's great for individual users, but supporting a large corporate environment with that software? ALmost impossible.
    • t3st3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> Why does everyone hate Microsoft so much?
      Because if someone did something bad and this can affect you, it is surely OK to respond in same manner.So here we are.I did used MS products since MS-DOS 6.22 but now I found that I'm actually getting to hate MS for their recent policy changes.They getting totally evil in last years.Vista's license and built-in anti-user components is awful ignorance of any customer rights and wishes.MS thinks they can decide all things instead of us?They have to try... but without me, thanks.
  • Guderian, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Spell much?
  • demonsofgoetia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I destroyed all of the SUSE Linux CDs I owned and I will never purchase, use, or support a Novell product or service (including SUSE) again, just like I don't purchase, use, or support Microsoft products or services. I used to enjoy using SUSE Linux, but I will never use it again.
    • lustre, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0Wow, talk about cutting your nose off to spite yourself. I'm glad I don't have to deal with you.
    • t3st3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually, Novell is not evil.They're just stupid enough to find problems on their ass again.They lost Netware even if it was technically not so bad.They're going to lose here.Not because of technical reasons but once again due to moron marketing.You should be totally incompetent in FOSS world to make such deals with M$.Novell did.This has been mistake.They'll pay for it.However Novell is one of major Linux players who did a lots of good for Linux.So MS gains something here too: one of strong Linux players is almost out of the game.Argh, I'm really hate MS.Who loves sharks and snakes?MS is same thing for your mind.

      Actually we have to live with Novell but take care on their code.
  • marimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Novell is just a proxy: Ballmer

    http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Novell_is_acting_as_a_proxy_Ballmer

  • cdf12345, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Microsoft lied. Linux Died.

    Sounds like a good bumpersticker right?

    OPEN SOURCE '08!!!
    • t3st3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Open Source can not die.You cannot defeat each and every people in the world.The same thing applies here.Even if some corporation fails, open source projects are about to reborn like bird Phoenix.Do you remember Netscape?Now, it's fork is back and it's about to kick MS ass a bit.Long live the Firefox :).Same will happen with each great project which is decided to be open ;)
  • ahagen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In the article, the eweek editor talks about the 8-K and makes the accusation. Then, the guy from Novell denies it. Then e-week links to the 8-K, which is here:

    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/758004/000075800406000109/novl-8k_110706.htm

    I am tired, but I don't think the 8-K says what the eweek editor says.

    I don't understand all this legal stuff, but I'm beginning to suspect there is an overreaction against Novell.
  • Chicken001, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm a happy Ubuntu User.

    I was using Suse at one time, now the cd's are all burn't. I'm never going back to windows and i'm never going to use any product from Novell.

    I might install Fedora on my other computer in the near future to support both distros.
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