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385 Comments
- totallyAMAZING, on 10/11/2007, -21/+345Apparently people don't read the rules of Linux hardware:
1. No ATI
2. Check the hardware compatibility list
3. "Partially supported" means "barely functional if you can get it to install."
4. No ATI
5. No, really, don't use ATI.
6. Really, I don't care if you're a fanboy, don't use ATI!!! - ssam, on 10/11/2007, -21/+158ATI won't even let an opensource r500 driver be released.
http://digg.com/linux_unix/ATI_Real_Position_on_Open_Source_Drivers
http://airlied.livejournal.com/31180.html
http://airlied.livejournal.com/43975.html - kingkilr, on 10/11/2007, -22/+135This is pretty old news, i.e. 3 years...
- lonniebiz, on 10/11/2007, -16/+120Are you an ATI rep or something?
ATI is full of empty promises when it comes to supporting Linux. We need to be tough on them until we see the hard results OF a promise. Don't lay off of them because of a promise again; that's how they've slipped away in the past. - aldenhg, on 10/11/2007, -9/+86Old news? Do you even use Linux? I just got an Nvidia card because my Radeon wasn't supported in Linux.
- subliminalurge, on 10/11/2007, -6/+59Write on
- sterken, on 10/11/2007, -5/+54ATI has no obligation to release their source code, however, I see nothing wrong with letting the world know about it. Had I known that I would run Ubuntu on my desktop, I would have chosen the hardware differently, and I hope other people read this and consider it when they purchase hardware next time.
Since I have switched to Ubuntu, I won't buy another ATI card until they open their drivers up. I have an x1600, and it's a lot slower in Linux than windows. I'm using multiple desktops, I've got direct rendering working, etc with the binary driver they supply. Sometimes I have video card-related crashes that require reboots (screen turns trippy colors and I can still telnet in to the machine, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace doesn't help), still can't get Beryl running (I think it has to do with multiple desktops on ATI, not sure though).
Friend of mine uses NVidia and plays the same games, has Beryl running, etc. Similar hardware otherwise, so I dunno.
And by the way, I was an ATI fan before, but it's just not worth the trouble to me. I'm just waiting for my next big computer upgrade. With Dell offering Ubuntu Desktops now, I might actually go that way and upgrade the hardware a little or something. - earls, on 10/11/2007, -8/+51Agreed. I am (was) a fan of ATI products, however if they can't do something simple like provide basic Linux support, off with 'em. Not that their Windows support is something to right home about either...
- Genius16, on 10/11/2007, -18/+55Yes the news is rather old. As of now, my roommate is running his x1600 under debian sarge with KDE and Beryl running. Its still not EASY to do, he had some fun with that one, but no need to bash ati for something that happened over a year ago.
- Snarfy, on 10/11/2007, -1/+37You can do that simply with crappy onboard Intel video. Unlike Vista, Compiz/Beryl doesn't need the latest hardware to work in an accelerated manner.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -7/+40Any games made by ID software will run natively in Linux. There are other as well. Please join the 21st century.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -9/+40Some of us don't want to fudge around with aiglx in order to do compositing.
ATI's Linux support is horrid, which is why there is a shiny new NVidia card in my shiny new computer.
After being a faithful ATI supporter since 3DFX went under I finally gave up on them. I will no longer tolerate, or spend my money with, a manufacturer that will not make a good faith effort at supporting my OS. - thetaco82, on 10/11/2007, -10/+40Yeah, because it's totally an OS problem.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -9/+37Some of us have been waiting for YEARS for ATI to properly support Linux. Like say since 3DFX went under.
Just how long SHOULD we wait before we start bitching?
I emailed ATI three years ago about the state of their Linux support and not much as changed since then besides more empty promises.
I buy NVidia now. ATI has lost my business. - Phocion55, on 10/11/2007, -4/+32We bought the hardware, didn't we?
- eean, on 10/11/2007, -2/+30And we think AMD is going to be a "Linux positive" influence on ATI why?
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~108748,00.html
Just a couple of years ago, most Linux folks bought AMD. They were the "little guy" when compared to Intel. They had 64 bit processing.
But then AMD bought ATI (a long time adversary of Linux) and more importantly Intel has started providing good support for Linux drivers. Whereas before the fact that AMD didn't pay much attention to Linux was just the "standard", now they look absolutely horrible compared to Intel. - Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -8/+34I can "figure out" aiglx just fine. I've used it before. I just don't WANT to continue using it.
I also like to run games natively in Linux, because ID software gives me that option. Why don't you get with the 21st century and stop with the "only windows plays games" crap.
BTW, OpenGL games often run FASTER under *nix, even with an ATI board, than they do in Windows XP. With Windows Vista it's not even close.
When you've learned a thing or two about Linux and are doing being a pompous ass get back to me. Until then STFU and let people who have legitimate gripes talk about them. - DannyB, on 10/11/2007, -11/+35"We can't let them get away with this"
LOL, like you have some ***** right as to how a company chooses to do their business. - Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+26Enemy Territory, America's Army, Unreal Tournament..how many do you need?
- Phocion55, on 10/11/2007, -6/+30Wow. Narrow minded....
Family/friends come to me everytime they purchase a new computer for suggestions. They ask me to help "build" them one online.
I immediately don't select/recommend anything ATI. If asked, I fervently suggest AGAINST ATI.
It's not just Linux users - it's Linux users who help family/friends make computer purchasing decisions. - Hubris, on 10/11/2007, -2/+25Unreal Tournament has historically been released with a linux native version. If UT2K7 is released with a native version, it should be on your list as a decent game.
- schestowitz, on 10/11/2007, -21/+43@ lonniebiz: you beat me to it. Also, every time Flash gets mentioned, someone from Adobe shows up. In Netscape, if I criticise Dell, some rep shows up as well. The death of social bookmarking? I hope not. But some of my friends ditched Digg when the Microsoft shills entered in large numbers...
- SteveMax, on 10/11/2007, -1/+22You run an X800, an old generation. The problem is with the current (2x00) and previous (X1x00) generation cards. They just don't let people who purchased their cards recently use their computers well; this only gets worse if you consider laptops.
With NVidia, you can go and buy anything, and you will know it's supported. With ATI, you need to stay one or two generations back. Do you find this acceptable? - spyrochaete, on 10/11/2007, -2/+22The cost of materials of a video card is pennies. The entire price you pay is in research and development. Of drivers. For operating systems. ATI's customers are entitled to a working product or they will be customers no more.
- saguratus, on 10/11/2007, -3/+22@piratechaos
I disagree. Both wine and cedega have matured greatly, and can play a majority of windows games at native speed (or faster). There's also quite a few other companies who make the effort in porting their games over due to the increased popularity of desktop linux (e.g. Serious Sam).
If you have trouble getting games up and running via wine, you should consider Crossover Office. Out of the box support for WoW, all Steam games (CS:S, HL2:E1, etc), EVE Online, and much more, and requires no use of the terminal. - Elranzer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+18I have no idea why Linix users are advocates of AMD. Intel has always had better support with Linux, from their wireless chipsets to graphics cards. Especially with laptops, an Intel Centrino-based configuration works much better and everything seems to work (as in all its features work).
It could be because AMD use to be so close to NVidia before the AMD-ATi merger, and NVidia is a close second in Linux dirver support, and the best option if you want real 3D functionality in Linux.
The whole "underdog"/"little-guy" way of thinking goes no where in Linux. You don't buy something just to support a company, even though it may not work right. Remember that AMD still makes billions, just less billions than Intel. - aldenhg, on 10/11/2007, -3/+21The Unreal games have native Linux binaries and Wine/Cedega work decently for older games. Linux isn't a gaming platform, but that doesn't mean there aren't games that work in it.
- grevvvvvv, on 10/11/2007, -5/+23"We need to digg ATI some bad press. Unlike NVIDIA, they refuse to provide driver support for Linux."
Why is this a problem? Why is it their obligation to support Linux? It's well known that they don't support Linux, so don't buy an ATI product and then bitch and moan how it isn't supported. That's like bitching about a car you bought that doesn't come with AC, because you never bothered to double check or just didn't care.
"They can't continue to get away with this: Many Windows users are starting to want Linux compatible hardware, because they have "the switch" in mind."
So what is the problem? If they want Linux compatible hardware, maybe they should buy some.
BTW I'm no fanboy or anything, I've never even owned an ATI product in my life. - saguratus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+19@piratechaos
This is a common misconception. Wine and Cedega are NOT windows emulators! (Haven't you heard what Wine stands for? W.ine I.s N.ot an E.mulator). The best way to explain it is that they remap the API's used in a windows application. Yes, there is some overhead, but it's minimal (usually 1-3%). Many games, notably WoW, not only look better, but they're often faster than they would be in windows (15-30% for WoW on my hardware). Better yet, it can be combined with technology like Beryl and net similar performance. The state of graphics drivers under linux is improving greatly, and is not as bad as most people think. - aldenhg, on 10/11/2007, -3/+19You'd be surprised the scope of influence this Linux user has.
I'm a computer tech. I fix computers and consult when my clients need new computers. I have a few clients who are medium sized businesses, all of which recently updated their computers. They asked me to find the best solution for them, so I had carte blanch to configure every computer they use. Guess how many lost sales that was for ATi. It's not under 100. And that was just last month. Consider the impact that I could have in a year. - mooninite, on 10/11/2007, -3/+19*shameless plug*
If you guys look at the unofficial ATI Bugzilla, you will see the list of "known" bugs: http://ati.cchtml.com
Installation help can be found on the unofficial wiki: http://wiki.cchtml.com/
But... I own nVidia graphics cards. - JonForTheWin, on 10/11/2007, -1/+17>I guess linux users dont generally like to pay for things, it would make sense that you dont understand capitalism/consumerism...
The point of this is to give ati bad press so MORE consumers can be informed and "vote with their wallet".
It would make sense you don't ***** understand capitalism/consumerism. - KWhat, on 10/11/2007, -2/+18Yes, and ID software is one of the only companies that still produces quality games... EA and there half fast philosophy does not equate to quality game play (BF2 anyone?). ID made a very good point with quake4 and doom3. Linux is a viable gaming platform that can run games on less hardware and can be support with a little extra effort from game developers. Thank you ID for you commitment in pushing the envelope.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -3/+18@aldenhg,
THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. These diggers who are home users only don't understand how much influence some of us have over business clients who buy desktops and laptops by the truckload.
Since I started the "No ATI" policy at the beginning of the year I've steered a considerable amount of business away from ATI and to Intel and NVidia.
If you think that's not hurting ATI then take a look at their declining market share and guess again. - Snarfy, on 10/11/2007, -18/+33As an nVidia fanboy I must say this ATI bashing is unfounded. Sure ATI Linux support isn't as good nVidia, but they ARE working on it. AMD has already stated they are committed to better Linux support for their newly acquired ATI.
Bitching at someone while they work doesn't make it happen faster. - coredump0x01, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16"Well, I run an X800xl in Ubuntu, and I have compiz and everything running fine with direct rendering"
But I bet you're using XGL, which does not properly run most games and other apps. Or you're using the open source Radeon driver. ATI's official fglrx driver does not support AIGLX which is one of the reasons we're bitching. - Xanium4332, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16Yes but without drivers they won't make any money from their CARDS!
Oh and for the guys calling us idiots saying we can't get the drivers working.
1. No AIGLX support from the binary drivers
2. Random hardlocks, not my fault, just ATI's (if I run the opensource drivers, it's fine)
3. Random incompatibilities
4. NO USER SUPPORT (at least with nvidia you can chat with the developers on forums etc..) - Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16Why would ATI ever be "perfect for what I needed"? They don't do anything that Nvidia doesn't, that's the purpose of competition!
Your absolutely right, the vast majority of people "just won't give a *****". They won't give a ***** whether the box has ATI, NVidia, or Intel in it. So when I sell them an NVidia, or Intel, solution they will be perfectly happy.
WHY should I continue to sell for ATI when they've done nothing but irritate me? As long as I can fulfill my, and my clients, needs using something else I will. - sterken, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16I just noticed that this was just about driver support and not opening the drivers, which is even worse. They sell a card, release the drivers, and offer no support for it? My point still stands whether talking about either open sourcing the drivers or at the very least SUPPORTING your drivers.
Nothing wrong with making informed decisions. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16Hey man, after installing a dedicated sound card into my linux box (sound was actually the crippling factor for running games in WINE), almost all my usual games I play in windows run near-perfect. That is to say, I've gotten CS:S, Doom III, Prey, UT2K4, Painkiller, RTCW, and a few others working great. And the thing is, it just keeps getting BETTER and BETTER with every WINE release.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -3/+17@tizz66,
Oh but we DO have power. Why do you think ATI is suddenly starting to care about the state of their Linux drivers? They're issuing press releases and big promises to do better in the future.
The state of their Linux support is likely not the only thing leading to the declining market share, but it sure isn't helping them any. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15Ease of setup for ATI compared to Nvidia is terrible under linux.
Graphics options (AA and Ansioscopic filtering) are nonexistent with ati drivers under linux.
OpenGL performance on ATI under linux is horrible.
ATI lacks support for AIGLX, thus getting beryl to work is a pain compared to setting it up using nvidia.
I often had to disable pixel shader support under WINE when using ATI, thus making the games look like *****. I don't have this issue with nvidia hardware.
I've had experience with both graphics manufacturers drivers under linux for the last year and a half. And while I've seen continuous improvements on the part of nvidia, ATI has done nothing to show any driver maturity. - code_of_life, on 10/11/2007, -2/+16The drivers I downloaded for my radeon from ATI's driver site did not install.
I used the ENVY install script from http://swik.net/Envy and it installed fine.
Note that DRI still does not work in dual-screen mode (9800Pro). DRI works in clone/single screen mode. - evolver, on 10/11/2007, -7/+20The reason this is being done is because a simple boycott is not enough. Who knows they should boycott ATI? How do people know? Answer? Places like Digg which have proven VERY effective at getting attention as well as broadcasting message like this. I guarantee you that thousands of people who weren't completely aware of the ATI for Linux issues, including newbies switching from Windows would have been in for a headache if not for this message explaining why ATI cards should be avoided for present and (for the moment) future Linux users. So Kudos to the one who started this effort. If you don't make issues public, the public remains divided, ignorant, and vulnerable. Ghandi himself considered the newspapers his most powerful weapon. Imagine if he had the Internet.... For the Linux community, Digg will make ATI consider more aggressive actions because thanks to Digg, its no longer just a few separate whining geeks, its a unified community. After that, the boycott becomes effective.
- shinigami2057, on 10/11/2007, -2/+15We're looking for GOOD, STABLE, feature-full drivers.
- lazka, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12ever watched a mpeg2 video with your "driver"? type "top" in your terminal and see how it eats all your CPU
- Azor, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13"ATI won't even let an opensource r500 driver be released."
It's the same driver - remember, it's a unified driver. sheesh... - Urusai, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12Yet somehow Nvidia manages to make a decent Linux driver. Closed source, true, but far better than the closed source ATI driver, which does work btw, just not as well. The comments in the article imply that there is no support at all for X1?00 ATI cards, yet they are supported by the fglrx driver, which beats VESA.
- Buelldozer, on 10/11/2007, -11/+22You underestimate both the power and the scope of Linux users.
For instance, since I gave up on ATI I won't buy, nor recommend, laptops or desktops with ATI graphics cards or chipsets in them. Over the next 5 years that will likely add up to hundreds of laptops, and desktops.
Now multiply me by tens of thousands of Linux geeks who are upset with ATI and have a purchasing / recommending role with companies all over the world.
It's going to hurt them. - bigtomrodney, on 10/11/2007, -4/+14Actually if everyone would look back there was a time when there was NO 3D acceleration under ATi. Look at the Article - It's from 2006. Now I'm not saying ATI are doing great, but aside for gl_texture_from_pixmap the fglrx is an excellent driver and the ati/radeon open drivers work exceptionally well on the older hardware.
I agree that ATI and nVidia should ultimately open the drivers up despite all of the nonsense IP/Trade Secrets/Competition nonsense but I'm not going to pull crap out of the air like this article. ATI drivers are in a lot better condition than they were 2 years ago. Maybe it's just that all the new users don't have the benefit of retrospect to see how far things have come and how far they will go. -
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