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65 Comments
- drag, on 12/11/2007, -4/+29It's only divisive because people who have absolutely nothing to do with either Gnome or KDE, except that they dual boot it, have made it divisive in their minds.
Gnome is working on OOXML compatibility because people are going to need it in the future.
KDE having poor compatibility with current Microsoft formats is not forcing anybody to switch from Microsoft office to Koffice. The free software folks refusing to support OOXML is going to have... oh.. about ZERO influence on whether or not businesses are going to adopt OOXML as a file format.
And they are. It's going to be very common eventually. Microsoft dominates the business desktop arena. Microsoft Office dominates. Going from older versions of Microsoft office to newer versions is the natural evolution for these folks. It does not matter what KDE thinks on the matter, or what Gnome thinks on the matter, or even what IEEE thinks on the matter.
How many pointy-haired bosses know anything about IEEE? And if they knew, how many do you think would actually care?
Sooo... if you want people to migrate to Linux in the future you will have to be compatible with the file formats they use. The higher the compatibility, the lower the cost of migration. Obviously Microsoft intentionally designed OOXML to be poor. It's just a XML wrapping around many smaller undocumented, patented, and closed binary formats. It says stuff like 'Make X act like Y so it's compatible with Microsoft Office XP'.. without ever saying what X is for, what Y is for or what the required behavior is.
Koffice is, in many ways, superior to OpenOffice.org (which is not Gnome btw). It's faster, uses less ram, it has more fun features, it's easier to use, etc etc. But OO.org gets all the limelight because of it's Microsoft Office compatibility. It does not require retraining and it has as-good-as-humanly-possible compatibility with Microsoft formats. Since everybody has everything in MS formats then OO.org has a chance of actually being used.
That's all. There is no politics, there is no grand scheme to undermine free software or the ODL. OOXML compatibility is a good thing even if OOXML itself is a bad thing. Gnome working and badgering folks like the IEEE have prevented OOXML from being shotgun'd into a standard by Microsoft's money and has opened it up somewhat.
And once people actually start using Linux desktop in a widespread manner, if that ever happens, then KDE and Koffice will be there and the choices between programs and services will allow people to make the maximum use of their hardware and software and save lots of money by adopting open and standardized formats.
Saying Gnome or other free software people should ignore OOXML completely because of the politics is like saying the Linux desktop should never have compatibility with Apple's Ipod because it's business model is based on DRM and lock-in or ignore H.264/Mpeg4 AVC compatibility because the Mpeg group wants to make money by the offensive use of software patents. (offensive in the sense of aggressive AND offending)
And I do like KDE.
Just don't try to turn it into a KDE vs Gnome thing or a ODF vs OOXML thing. It's all very pointless. Instead, if you care about open standards and software freedom, make sure people know why OOXML is a bad thing and illustrate it on the basis of factual data in a real way. Show people how data format compatibility and openness is a good thing. Think of RealPlayer vs MP3 or OggVorbis. - amfantasy, on 12/11/2007, -5/+30The KDE Developers already said that they are only focusing on open standards, why would they support open XML
- Rubuntu, on 12/11/2007, -1/+23Richard Stallman recent comment on the Gnome list "The sort of favoritism that would be improper is to make a decision for the sake of profit (rather than the success of GNOME and the triumph of freedom).
- Klowner, on 12/11/2007, -0/+13In KDE there's an option to style GTK apps with your Qt theme styles.. does a pretty good job of making all your apps look consistent between UI toolkits.
- GMorgan, on 12/11/2007, -6/+17Glad to see KDE do this. There is a point where we'd have to admit defeat and accept OOXML, we are nowhere near it yet and should be pressing for ODF to remain the ISO's standard for office documentation.
- blinki, on 12/11/2007, -5/+15I use Gnome but KDE seem to be the ones that are really pushing the FOSS movement in desktop environments. Get it together Gnome and follow their lead!
- maybeway36, on 12/11/2007, -4/+13T minus 10 minutes before this turns into a GNOME/KDE flame war.
- stoanhart, on 12/11/2007, -1/+8Well said.
I think it's strange how no one complained about reverse engineering .doc; in fact, everyone thought it was fantastic, because they could use their free software in the real world.
OOXML may suck, but it should be easier to attain compatibility: partial documentation is better than none at all. Any serious office project that decides not to implement it is only hurting itself. To get people to use linux and OO.org, it needs to be feasible.
It is not yet the time to stop supporting closed formats outright. There are not enough linux users for that to work. - dkoon, on 12/11/2007, -2/+9BoycottGnome.com?
- Ademan, on 12/11/2007, -0/+6Haha, you swear like firefox really uses Gtk+, all it does is butcher it (same with open office).
- DrBob, on 12/11/2007, -0/+6What exactly has GTK usage got to do with the politics of OOXML? Don't troll.
- mikal, on 12/11/2007, -4/+10If the "free software folks" had zero influence, Microsoft wouldn't bother with OOXML in the first place.
- nousplacidus, on 12/11/2007, -4/+10This highlights one of the most important aspects of Open Source: Regardless of what Microsoft or any other corporate entity does, projects like KDE will continue to do what they feel is best for usability (reads sanity) and their developer.
God Bless open source devs. - mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -1/+7KDE and the devs temper tantrum isn't what spurred Microsoft to compete with ODF, the format itself and OpenOffice did that. Even that small success was because of the high price of Office, not because OOo is open source or based on an open format.
As the GP said, most users are going to need to have OOXML compatibility at some point, and the KDE devs throwing a fit and refusing to support it won't change that, nor will it change much of anything. - arbulus, on 12/11/2007, -2/+7The more I learn about the KDE devs, the more I respect them. I listened to this week's episode of the Linux Action Show! podcast and they had an interview with Aaron Seigo, and I really have to say that I was really impressed with everything he had to say. KDE's stance on software freedom and the advancement of free (libre) software was really encouraging. This announcement here just ads another big point of cred in KDE's corner. I've been a GNOME user since I being using Linux, but it almost makes me want to support KDE more and use their DE more in light of the strong support for software freedom that they have.
- nousplacidus, on 12/11/2007, -0/+5well put at the end there.
- antitab, on 12/11/2007, -0/+5Remind me again why it's a good thing to reject supporting a format (any format) on political grounds (KDE) rather than offering support on pragmatic grounds (GNOME)?
- KineticShampoo, on 12/11/2007, -16/+21I won't lie, I recently fell in love with Linux. Ubuntu, in fact.
Truth is there's nothing like installing programs from the add/remove list and repositories. Everythings free and runs swiftly. The only shortcoming Linux has is the learning curve there is. But trust me, it's so worth it! It's the best feeling in the world to finally discover something new in Linux. At least new to you.
Anyways, good for the lads who work KDE.
Yours Truly,
A Windows Deserter (Until recently :P) - grumpyrain, on 12/11/2007, -1/+6Documents I author are my property, and it is not Microsoft's right to deliberately obscure that document so that I am locked into a single software vendor. It is OK if Microsoft don't support ODF. It is even OK if they do use OOXML. What is not OK is to claim OOXML as a portable format when it contains “useWord97LineBreakRules” style tags unless you specifically document what those tags entail.
- mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -1/+6Most people who trumpet that little line can't even read C code. Usability means more to most people than the ability to modify and distribute the code.
- brhad56, on 12/11/2007, -1/+6KDE has always seemed to want to do their own thing. From what I've read in the past, the KDE developers really don't care if people use their software or not. They are just going to continue to build it out how they see fit. Why should they conform to a new open format that Microsoft creates? As far as they are concerned, they are already using an open format that works just great.
Seriously, how many of you Kubuntu users use Konqueror over Firefox? Or KOffice over OpenOffice? Why do the developers continue to work on KOffice instead of just crowning OpenOffice the winner? Because they're not in it to win, they're just playing the game. - ganlet, on 12/11/2007, -3/+8I was going to digg you until you added that "(Until recently :P)". After a whole post on how much you liked switching you add at the end that you where a windows deserter until recently. Just seems a little passive-aggressive.
- Fergy, on 12/11/2007, -0/+5I think he isn't as smart with words as you think. He probably means that he recently converted to Ubuntu.
- arbulus, on 12/11/2007, -0/+4You can use Firefox in KDE just fine and dandy. Of course that doesn't address a full QT port, but it does work just fine.
- z0mbie2099, on 12/11/2007, -8/+12I wish Firefox wasn't only on GTK.
- andycr512, on 12/11/2007, -1/+5Doesn't that kind of ruin the whole "I use open source software" thing?
- schestowitz, on 12/11/2007, -5/+9"GNOME is based on a philosophy, but it is not just a philosophy. It is a project to develop and maintain a desktop environment.
A technical project has to make specific technical decisions. It can’t favor all the options that fit the philosophy; often it has to choose an avenue and follow it. Whatever the choices, some might call them “favoritism”, but that’s tough. Choosing can’t be avoided.
GNOME is a desktop environment, but it is not just a desktop environment. It is also based on a philosophy of free software and freedom. That philosophy sometimes yields specific ethical reasons for making specific technical choices. To someone who thinks only in terms of technology, these might seem like “favoritism”, but favoring the ethical (or what leads to it) over the unethical is right and proper.
The sort of favoritism that would be improper is to make a decision for the sake of profit (rather than the success of GNOME and the triumph of freedom)."
http://www.mail-archive.com/foundation-list@gnome. ...
That last (and concluding) paragraph is worth special emphasis. It underlies an important issue. Corporations are taking self-serving routes, which even involve software patents, in order to take advantage of free desktops and extract more revenue from them. It’s selfish and it is based on short-sighted goals that endanger tomorrow’s free desktop. Without being Free, GNU/Linux will find it difficult to compete. Its strengths, merits, and pretty much any distinguishing value will vanish, leaving it trailing behind and catching up with somebody else’s pre-imposed lead. - donnydarko, on 12/11/2007, -2/+6Whats the point? Your not even advertising anything. Idiot
- Banshie, on 12/11/2007, -1/+4How is GNOME relevant to this? KDE produce theirs office software, GNOME bundles theirs, shouldn't it be OpenOffice.org dithers?
- tehmoth, on 12/11/2007, -2/+5you could revive the QT code in Firefox if you wanted.
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -3/+6That was pointed out for the people to notice that Icaza is obviously biased towards Microsoft.
- clickwir, on 12/11/2007, -1/+4I feel dumb and ignorant here. But does Gnome have an "Office Suite" that this argument matters for? KDE has Koffice and anything that used Gnome, that I've tried, uses Open Office. Is there a Goffice? If not, then what does it really matter what their stance on OOXML is?
- arbulus, on 12/11/2007, -0/+3Preventing Microsoft from getting another strangle hold in the marketplace will definitely do much. It they can be stopped before they start, then all the better. MS doesn't care about open standards, it's just a trojan horse. They want to woo the free software community into thinking that they care and then grabbing them by the balls with yet another document format.
- DrBob, on 12/11/2007, -0/+3There's a loosely-bundled package consisting of Abiword, Gnumeric and Gnome-DB, but it's not really something you'd call an office suite.
- clickwir, on 12/11/2007, -0/+3I use Kubuntu. I see Konqueror and Koffice in a similar way that Microsoft bundles IE and most Windows machines have MS Office commonly installed. Not that the "default" ones suck, but that they are a good alternative when FF and OO don't work or I just want to try something else for a day. Konqueror and Koffice are great, I don't mean my analogy to be taken as Konqueror = IE and that means it's bad. No, it's great. But I think FF is better. But it's really really nice to have Konqueror there to fall back on if FF is broken or can't display something. Same for Koffice.
- KataLieb, on 12/11/2007, -1/+3DIdnt you read the article? GNOMEs De Icaza has even spoken in Microsofts own conferences about XML, and touted it elsewhere as well. So it does beg the question, why?
And then theres the maybe even true conspiracy theories that Icaza has a thing or two going with Redmond boys ;) - nousplacidus, on 12/11/2007, -3/+5thats the great part, you could do it yourself if you wanted to.
- GMorgan, on 12/11/2007, -1/+3Who is philosophically opposed to paying for software?
- TeacherOfHeroes, on 12/11/2007, -1/+3But what happens when the 'triumph of freedom' in this one case is at odds with the 'success of GNOME and the triumph of freedom' overall?
Interoperability is the only way to allow people to switch to open source alternatives. Microsoft is still dominant; without interoperability, GNOME et. al will cease to matter. - AdHaR, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1reported and blocked *****...
- clickwir, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1Exactly... is there a Goffice that this stance matters for?
- nousplacidus, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2Im in agreement with mikal, the whole reason this started is because there was an "Open" document format in the first place. Allowing people to realize not only its potential, but the danger of closed formats.
- mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2Thats a different issue. Support ODF if you want, but refusing to support OOXML isn't going to change much, nor will it force companies to adopt ODF.
- bruce89, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Yes -- http://www.gnome.org/gnome-office/ . It's a fairly loose collection of AbiWord and Gnumeric.
- DrBob, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1But if we don't get in on the standardisation process now, then we'll have no chance to try and improve the spec. There's little chance for us to stop it becoming the new world-wide document standard, so why waste the opportunity to at least make the best of a bad job and improve its spec so that it's no longer just a quirky XML wrapper for a legacy binary format.
- GMorgan, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1Microsoft are already reneging on promises that the standard will be turned over entirely to the ISO. What sort of standardisation process can we have in such circumstances?
MS were offered the chance to go through the process and they tried to cheat. They were caught and have been forced to do things properly. I'm happy with that solution, if it gets past the full process then we can assume that most of the inadequacies will be resolved. - Fergy, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2Ubuntu has a really low learning curve. The only thing that really changes from others OS's is the way you start/install/remove programs and where you can configure things. The biggest reason why I generally don't install it for people(even when it would be a really big improvement) is that they and the rest of the world expect windows programs to work on the computer. It takes only one program that doesn't work on linux for people to want the old familiar windows xp back.
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1Reported.
- geminitojanus, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2There's nothing conspiracy-like about it; Icaza is a Microsoft lover, has been for ages. He started GNOME at the time because Qt was closed source, and there really weren't any other options (except Motif). Now, he has absolutely nothing to do with the GNOME Foundation, so he's free to go and reimplement everything Microsoft does for his own wet dreams (Mono, Silverlight, ringing any bells yet?)
The problem comes when some of the other GNOME Foundation members agree with this; we should categorically REJECT any Microsoft-based technology from the GNOME stack, and that should be the end of it. But that hasn't happened yet, and probably won't happen until we get a new board and/or create a new organization specifically for this purpose. - grumpyrain, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2Are you young and naive or just trolling?
Don't get me wrong, there is no question in my mind that today, Office 2007 is the benchmark office suite. But I am not married to it. If something better comes along, I want the option to use it. If Microsoft decide that Office is no longer profitable and cease development, I want the option to use Open Office or Google Docs or KOffice or whatever.
Frankly, shoddy documentation is the least of its problems. You conveniently ignore that the only office application capable of correctly rendering “useWord97LineBreakRules” is the one by the author of Word97. Now if Microsoft took all such tags and explicitly stated how they need to be rendered, they could call it an open format.
You can't have your cake and eat it. It is either open or vendor locked. It can not be vendor locked and still open.
PS. I don't just own the text. I own the presentation (ie. formatting). Check out some copyright law if you want a clue. -
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