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Is Alcoholics Anonymous A Cult?

briancuban.com — What comes to your mind when you hear the word cult? Jim Jones Kool Aid? David Koresh? Charles Manson?

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  • louiebaur, on 05/21/2008, -26/+17I don't know but its pretty close for sure
    • zepher5150, on 05/21/2008, -5/+6You didn't even read the artical.

      no central authority structure. No one is handing down edicts from the top saying you must do this or that to stay in the group. This is because there is no top. To be a cult an organization as a whole must have a “top” in terms of its authority structure.
      • lateralis, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3which appears in none of the definitions of "cult" that I can find.
  • icantseeyou, on 05/21/2008, -52/+119It's not a cult. Not even close. People at low places in their lives need a support group - this is one. Places like AA, OA, or GA are used by people to get support from others who voluntarily join and help. I know many people who have been in one of these and the support system has worked wonders. There is no payment or requirements - that's a cult. This is voluntary in every sense of the word.
    • HeDiggMe, on 05/21/2008, -21/+14That doesn't make it not a cult. And people in the mindset where they need to join a support group are vulnerable prey to join a cult.
    • BoneheadFarker, on 05/21/2008, -20/+72Except..they force religion down your throat by admitting there is a higher power. That's one of the steps. And you don't have a choice if a judge orders you to attend. It even went as far as being challenged in court by a lawyer facing charges. He wanted to choose his own support group, but the judge only gave him AA as a choice other then jail. So, being a lawyer, he sued for the right to choose.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo

      Penn and Teller might not be the best source, but the lawyer in question appeared on their show...
      • thatsmyaibo, on 05/21/2008, -8/+4I personally don't follow any organized religion but I have known a lot of people go through AA or NA that changed their life after finding religion through a support group.
        • popfrogs, on 05/21/2008, -7/+13Supplant weak-minded addiction with belief in fairy tale. Works for me?
      • VenTatsu, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5That's a problem with the judge in question not the group AA.
        That AA include the acceptance of a higher power bears no relation at all to it being or not being a cult.
      • icantseeyou, on 05/21/2008, -1/+7As far as the "god" talk, I believe that most of that has turned into something less direct. Saying that there is a higher power is really leaving it to you. You choose what a higher power means. I know many agnostics who have no problem admitting there may be a higher power. Not a god - but something along the line of a power in the universe. That's a ton less damaging than forcing GOD down your throat. If you really want to talk Cult I believe the very first one would be Religion AKA God.

        I see many people turning away from Religion and embracing the concept of a higher power - I like that because it makes more sense and gets them away from the church.
        • BoneheadFarker, on 05/21/2008, -0/+9But...what if I don't believe there is a higher power? What if I think the whole concept is *****? Being forced to admit there is a higher power becomes meaningless at that point. It's a philisophical concept that has absolutely no relation to whether or not I want to drink myself into oblivion. And I don't think it's right taking people who are already vulnerable and forcing them to believe things that have no relation to their problems...

        • Wartyboskfapped, on 05/21/2008, -4/+3BoneheadFarker: if you don't believe you are the center of the universe, and can control all space and time, then you have to admit there is a power higher than you on the food chain.

          It doesn't have to be a spiritual force, just any higher order or system at work outside of you.
        • BoneheadFarker, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4@Wartyboskfapped

          *****.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

          Step 2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
          Step 3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

          This is religion, plain and simple. And even if it did mean to just admit that there are things higher up the food chain then me, what relevence does this have to drinking? There are better ways to deal with alcoholism then to throw religion at people hoping it will stick to one of them. And this is a literal fact. AA has about the same success rate as people doing it on their own. So why is the most popular organisations amoung courts?
        • Pandalemon, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Sounds like the equivocation fallacy there Wartyboskfapped.
      • sinurgy, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1I'm sorry but if the dude was really that concerned about going to AA, he had MANY opportunities to make better choices before getting to the point of being court ordered to attend a program like AA. Cry me a ***** river!

        As for mentioning AA in the same vein as Charles Manson, Jim Jones, etc....seriously?! Are people on digg so sensitive to "god" they'll suddenly turn ***** stupid?! Look I'm no fan of religion (hate it in fact) but AA is not even remotely close to a cult and the "higher power" that is spoken about in AA has different meanings to different members. It may not work for everybody but as the son of a man who has now been sober for 20 years, I'm very happy he found this "cult".
    • krnldmp, on 05/21/2008, -21/+22It's a cult like any other pack of jackasses that try to pound a bible up your ass while you're down. Some people get stuck swearing by the book for the rest of their lives because nobody could be bothered to explain to them that, in the end, THEY are the ones resposible for their recovery. Of course the church is more than willing to step in, for the nominal advantage of gaining one more convert.
      • skatastrophy, on 05/21/2008, -3/+8I'd like to invoke Rule 34 on that first sentence.
      • sassip, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1kmldmp, sounds like it didn't work for you, eh?
    • TonyLocNE, on 05/21/2008, -6/+1Money has nothing whatsoever to do with cults, so saying that because its free it is not a cult does not work. Also, many people join cults voluntarily.. I don't know of many cults that force their members in. As you said, people that join the AA group are at low levels in their lives and need support, thats where a cult comes into play.
      Members are told the only way they can save themselves is to accept God as your savior, and admit you are powerless when it comes to temptation of alcohol.
      I am not a expert on cults, nor the AA, but from what my brother has told me from going to meetings, it does sound very much like a cult.
      • VenTatsu, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1I have a cousin that used to be in a cult, and a step-sister that is in AA. Believe me, there is almost no similarity between the cult stories and the AA stories I've heard.
    • topgigmedia, on 05/21/2008, -2/+5I disagree somewhat from personal experience. 2 people close to me have entered the program and continued going throughout their recovery. They now seem to hold their relationships with other members as their priority and have pulled away from their own family and friends - whom I might mention were the ones that werso supportive during and after their recovery. They now only want to be in the company of other fellow members. I think AA, GA, etc can be similar to cult religions in that regard for some.

      All they ever want to talk about are the meetings and people who attend them - and they have completely lost any and all interest in anything else.
      • VitriolAndAngst, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3Well, if their friends and family caused them to need to escape to drugs, maybe they NEED to keep away from their friends and family.

        • topgigmedia, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1You missed the part about, "whom I might mention were the ones that were so supportive during and after their recovery." They have alienated the very people that were good in their life prior to joining the "cult".
        • vurdillac, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1Right- it so much easier to blame your friends and family for your own problems. Way to be honest about your addiction.
      • RollingGo, on 05/22/2008, -0/+2yeah, i know exactly what you're talking about there. my old man is part of AA and that's all his life revolves around now is AA this and AA that. it's nice that AA helped him quit drinking and all, but really all it's turned into is one addiction to replace another.
    • bobfrancis, on 05/21/2008, -0/+6Yep - certainly not a cult - I was allowed to leave without any bother.

      That reminds me, it's almost Beer:30

    • VitriolAndAngst, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4This is probably the same connection that anti-depressants have with suicide. Most people, who are depressed, take them, and most people who commit suicide are depressed. The fact that there are overlaps of the two groups is pretty much expected -- but the assumption that anti-depressants make suicide more likely, or that the desperate people who join AA go off the deep end because of a 12-step process that urges them to "call a friend"?

      No. I don't see any causation at work here.
      • BoneheadFarker, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Uh, no. Do some research on anti-depressants, especially lithium, and you'll see that there's clear evidence that it's the result of going off of medication that causes higher incidences in suicide. They affect your brain chemistry, so sudden shifts in the chemical balance is bound to cause erratic behaviour.

        AA works at a different level. It continues to feed the addiction mechanism. "Calling a friend" can be compared to "taking a drink". As long as they keep you busy in times that you want to drink, then you can't get drunk off your ass all the time. This is why you're required to go to 90 meetings in 90 days when you sign up. In those 90 days, you're slowly reprogrammed to depend on a sponsor instead of the bottle.

        But this still doesn't solve the underlying problem. It just supplants the problem. And more often then not, people just end up going back to drinking. There are much better ways then AA to deal with alcoholism...
    • Freetime000, on 05/23/2008, -0/+1What about when AA tells you you will relapse if you quit coming? What about when AA tells you to forsake any friends or family that try to tell you you don't need AA anymore? Sounds like a cult to me. Glad I got out... 7 years sober beyond AA.
  • RHMiller, on 05/21/2008, -49/+131Pretty clearly a cult/religion. Penn and Tell did a great job of exposing AA for the quackery that it is on their Emmy Award-winning show *****. It turns out that the AA success rate is the same for those who enroll and those who do it on their own (5% or less). The real crime is that our justice system routinely forces citizens to attend.
    • Vic333, on 05/21/2008, -10/+58"The real crime is that our justice system routinely forces citizens to attend." Agree. Plus, it's Christian based, making it discriminatory for non-theists.
      • BoonTobias, on 05/21/2008, -3/+18it's sad that stupid religious ***** always get attached to laws
      • blakeage, on 05/21/2008, -19/+2If Christianity is a person's way of being, why deny them of that? (I'm talking about the AA leaders, not the "patients"). And if it just so happens that Christians are the majority, what is the argument then?

        I do feel that people who need AA are very susceptible to suggestion, as is anyone whose way of life is pushed in their face as "the wrong way" by society. This susceptibility I think is the issue...what EXACTLY do we teach them? And that question is answered differently I'm sure by people from different religions, psychology, philosophy, whatever.

        Maybe what is ok is whatever works and doesn't cause lasting damage. In essence, the fix is the person doesn't drink anymore, and the lasting side effects are zero.
        • sindex, on 05/21/2008, -0/+13What we teach them should be along the lines of, "You have a problem. If you don't stop your destructive behavior, you're going to kill yourself or someone else, and hurt your friends and family. Take control of your life, accept responsibility for your actions, and grow the ***** up." What we shouldn't teach them is, "You have a problem. Sing the praises of a supernatural being and accept you have no control over your life and only "He" can save you. You're not responsible for your actions."

          I have no problem with people believing in God or being religious, regardless of what religion they choose. I have a huge problem with forcing people into religious organizations saying it's the only way to modify their behavior.
        • str1fe, on 05/21/2008, -0/+12You shouldn't need a big all-powerful person in the sky to be afraid of to motivate you to do good. You should go good because it's the right thing to do, not because you'll get into heaven, or please God, or what have you.
        • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4Alright, Let's go kill all women or men because they aren't the majority of the leaders of country xxx or they aren't majority of the population.

          Or let's enslave African Americans because they aren't majority.

          Man, some religious people just hit me as selfish bitches.

          Now let's try again: You'd be VERY pissed off if it was some other religion that they integrated...
        • Jassman, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2"In essence, the fix is the person doesn't drink anymore, and the lasting side effects are zero."

          The side effect is the loss of true critical thinking skills, with the acceptance of magical man in the sky myths. Forcing strange, archaic religious ideas (come on, talking snakes? With what vocal cords?) to become someone's basic worldview on which they base their lives around is flat out dangerous.
      • HillerMylife, on 07/24/2008, -2/+12So, assuming you're Christian, you're okay with being forced to go to a support group where you have to accept that Allah is the only God and Mohammed is his prophet if you're caught shoplifting.
      • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -12/+3Nobody is being forced to attend AA. You were presented with a choice in your life, made the wrong choice and ended up in front of a judge. Then the judge gives you another choice. Go to jail for the crime you already committed or go to AA. It's still your choice. If you have a problem with the ties between AA and Christianity you need to realize two things, the religious aspect of it is minimal and it's still your choice to be there.
        • Jackson0909, on 05/21/2008, -1/+10Actually, the religious aspect of it is not minimal. The twelve steps are riddled with religious references. I'm one of the many who have been forced to attend an AA meeting. I'm a Christian so the religious aspect did not bother me at all personally, but I am also against shoving your beliefs down another's throat. I think the courts are disrespecting both the group and the forced attendees.
        • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -4/+2@Jackson0909
          While the AA program is based around the idea of a "higher power" they don't really care if your higher power is God, Bugs Bunny or the Almighty Electron so long as you look outside yourself for help and guidance. As far as the court ordered attendance, I addressed that in my previous post plus it's not like anyone has come up with a viable alternative.
        • Acharne, on 05/21/2008, -1/+6Because there are no other viable support groups in existence that don't require you to submit to a higher power.

          Wait, there are, but people are still forced to attend AA.

          GG.
        • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2@Acharne
          Did you suggest an alternative to the judge? I have yet to meet a judge that would turn down a legitimate alternative so long as it did not cost the court anything. Or were you expecting the judge to offer an alternative. I have news for you, he already did you a favor by offering AA instead of jail.
      • sepllcehck, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4Sorry.. lost my keys.. thought they were here.. they weren't .. digg me down..
      • pbgswd, on 05/21/2008, -6/+2its not christian based
      • TomTruelle, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1...or people of other religions.
    • bromac, on 05/21/2008, -17/+11Know what I call ***** on? Comparing AA to people "quitting on their own".

      I have no doubts that people who quit booze on their own have a friend or family member that is encouraging them to. I know too many people who've beaten substances to think that it was their will alone that did it. They all have had someone to slap some sense into them and be a voice of reason that isn't there when you're jonesing for whatever is your poison. Self-control very seldom works otherwise: you're just a fox watching your own henhouse.

      All that AA does is provide support if you don't have anyone else to go to.
      • Digger1218, on 05/21/2008, -5/+8Or if you have no willpower
        • Enasni1212, on 05/21/2008, -3/+1Or if you don't understand how addiction works. *cough cough*
        • Digger1218, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Hmm, I used to smoke meth and I quit that without outside aid and have been clean for years.

          I used to smoke copious amounts of cigarettes and I quit that too. Without any help at all.

          Thats not to say that AA doesn't work for some people. It works fine for the no-willpower crowd. But just because a bunch of whiny drunks sit around together once a week doesn't make them the end all authority on addiction.
    • inajeep, on 05/21/2008, -3/+8Cause and Causation: is the failure rate because of the steps AA or is the failure rate due to the inability for these people to quit drinking?
      • zepher5150, on 05/21/2008, -4/+0The failure rate is what it is because most people in AA quit going to meetings and quit working the steps.


        The are like xmas tress in july....very, very dry.
      • gutistg, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1You just said:

        Are people unable to quit drinking because they're unable to quit drinking?
        • gutistg, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1"Is the failure rate because of the steps AA or is the failure rate due to the inability for these people to quit drinking?"

          Failure in this context = inability to quit drinking

          Therefore:
          "Is [the number of members that are unable to quit drinking] because of the steps AA or is [the number of members that are unable to quit drinking] due to the inability for these people to quit drinking?"

          The part in question:
          "is [the number of members that are unable to quit drinking] due to the inability for these people to quit drinking?"
    • Jack9, on 05/21/2008, -11/+5addiction cannot be broken on your own. Changing your behavior can. AA is not for malcontents, but then the courts cant issue an order for a CT every time they arraign a drunk driver. P&T are much like MythBusters, fake to the point of misinformation.
      • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Addiction can't be broken on your own? Since when?
    • cambob76, on 05/21/2008, -1/+21I checked it out a couple of years ago. Totally gave me the creeps. They said all religions are welcome, but insisted on saying the Lord's prayer... it was very odd. I found it hard to relate to most of the people there... hopeless cases. Addiction is a battle you have to ultimately fight on your own because your opponent is yourself. I've been clean for over 2 years now. How? I changed my thoughts and I stopped doing it.
      • popfrogs, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4One of the keys, also, is changing your friend circle. If you're trying to quit drinking, you ditch your drinking buddies. That's probably the hardest thing for most people to do.
        • Happy_Phantom, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Good point, but it doesn't help those who drink alone.
        • Laminarcissus, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1Requiring yourself to go to meetings is what helps someone who drinks alone.
      • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -2/+1Absolutely no AA meeting should be saying the Lord's Prayer, the Pledge of Allegiance, the Boy Scout Oath, or any formalized ritual from outside the program.

        The one you went to was apparently hijacked by people who would turn it into a revival meeting -- a terrible risk of a decentralized organization, but still better than the alternative.
      • vurdillac, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Cambob, I'm right there with you. But I can say AA cured me from drinking. No *****, I went to one meeting and decided right then that if I never drank again I wouldn't have the urge to hang out with that ***** zombie cult ever again. And it worked! That was right before Christmas 2006 and I not only don't drink, I don't even think about it much - something I doubt would be true if I sat around whining about it every week. And as an added bonus I don't have to accept anyone's ***** "higher power" nor did I have to give up any of my friends from before. Yay!

        • Laminarcissus, on 05/22/2008, -2/+1So you found your solution, why do you put up barriers for people who can't take that route, but are still literally trying to save their own lives?

          Why aren't you saying, "Well, it wasn't for me, check it out for yourself if you want, but basically do whatever you need to do to get healthy?"

          Is the superiority inherent in separating yourself from "whiners" and things you decide are "*****" part of your recovery? Even if, by spreading FUD, you could set some people back?
        • vurdillac, on 05/22/2008, -0/+0Because one of my best friends dropped me after he decided to go AA and I didn't. AA encouraged him to believe that his drinking was the root of all his problems and it made him into a different, less "true" person. They offered the guidelines to find him find his "true" self, but he needed to watch out- association with his friends would cause him to relapse.

          Newsflash to AAers - that person who drank was STILL YOU! Instead of buying this fragile "New Sober" identity that can easily be shattered by association with all those people who loved and supported you for years (ya know, the people you knew before you joined the cult) why don't you just take charge of your life and accept that YOU have the strength to help yourself without the doctrine and "support" of a cult. I think there is enough testimony from the pro-AA crowd, but for someone who had a long-standing relationship permanently damaged by AA's cult-like behavior (don't most cults have you break ties with your friends or family and expect you to substitute them with your new cult buddies?) I feel I am justified in calling them out on their self-righteous *****.

          And some people who are desperate to stop may appreciate hearing that they can do it WITHOUT dissing their friends or taking on a bunch of religious nonsense they don't believe in. As much as AA types would like to believe otherwise, you are not necessarily powerless over your addiction- in fact accepting responsibility for your life and knowing that you must rely on yourself to finally quit is a perfectly legitimate option that might work better than AA. That's not putting up barriers, that's removing them. And it's some good news that AA, for all their supposed "honesty", won't ever share.
    • VitriolAndAngst, on 05/21/2008, -4/+7Penn & Teller sometimes do humorous jabs at things with a lot of hot air. But their insight is often skin deep, and their investigations as well. I wouldn't put much faith in their conclusions.
    • flashback99, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2AA is a religion rather than a cult. It's closely related to christianity, although apparently they cater for all faiths and non-faith (not sure about how they do that considering 'higher power' for an atheist does not really exist.)
      • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1its simple, if you're an atheist then you can think of your higher power greater than yourself as the group itself or your sponsor or the program or a vague power in the universe, ***** it could be gravity or something scientific like that, just something that you know has more power than you that you can turn to is the key. it does not have to be God. the point behind that step is to finding a higher power that isnt yourself and isn't drugs. alcoholics are usually very self involved and selfish people fyi. there are a lot of people that come into AA as atheists and then end up being spiritual and believing in a vague powerful force in the universe but never ever believe in a God and never become religious.
      • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Just because you don't believe in a God means there's no higher power than you? I'd re-examine that, alcoholic or not. :-)

        As it was for this alcoholic atheist, your "higher power" can be the insight and experience of the people surrounding you in the room. People getting sober need constant reminders to rely on others, and making that my higher power was my reminder, no God involved, and it doesn't hurt that it really is a greater power than you.
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5if you get your facts from penn and teller then i feel sorry for you man.
    • spookycheddar, on 05/22/2008, -2/+1'on their emmy award winning program'

      Awesome. Seriously though, whats the point in bagging on something that works for lots of people? AA is a nonprofit organization, very unlike a cult.
    • dstz, on 05/22/2008, -0/+2"Penn and Tell did a great job of exposing AA"

      Just read their rules as posted below. 12 rules, at least 10 loaded with Christian crap and nothing really relevant to alcohol addiction in itself. If it's not a cult then i'm the ***** pope.
  • asnider, on 05/21/2008, -5/+43Pretty interesting read. I think I tend to agree with the author: AA isn't a cult. But, at the same time, I think it's something that definitely doesn't work for everyone.
    • twiztidsinz, on 05/21/2008, -2/+5Nothing works for everyone....
      • nbcaffeine, on 05/21/2008, -0/+7Breathing and death
        • twiztidsinz, on 05/21/2008, -2/+1lol I was going to edit and add "except death" but I decided against it would probably get me dugg down to hell
          But I'll call you on breathing... what does breathing solve?
        • edwartica, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1I don't know very many people that death actually "works" for.
        • rukeypoo, on 05/21/2008, -2/+0What death are we talking about here? Sickle death? Because he works for Keanu Reeves and Alex Winter.
        • twiztidsinz, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Death solves all problems...
        • gutistg, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1"what does breathing solve?"

          You're too dumb to be allowed to broadcast information.

          Please – I'm not trying to be insulting, really I'm not – but please get off of my internets. You shouldn't be communicating, in any way, with large groups of people.
        • Technopundit, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Except in Hollywood.
      • Blitzwing84, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4I'll drink to that!
  • abhilash, on 05/21/2008, -10/+30you commenters should read the story before you decide to spread your wisdom. pretty ridiculous to even put these in the same category. charlie manson & koresh never helped millions of people. get a clue. the author's got it right. interesting post.
    • GratefulGroover, on 05/21/2008, -3/+11well, 5 percent of them anyway...
      • edwartica, on 05/21/2008, -4/+2Try getting clean and sober sometime. I hope its a road I never have to go down, but those I've known have had a hell of a time. It takes a lot more than AA to do this - it takes a hell of a lot of will. More will than most people have.
        • Jassman, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Well if they are able to get clean and sober, they should be mature enough to admit that THEY were the person that beat their addiction... Not some organization that uses a weird 12 step program to a one step problem.
    • newbis, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1I read the story. AA for the most part does help some people. Here are my problems though. Based on the 12 Step program and Wikipedia's definition for cults.

      1. Admit you are powerless + withdraw = a physically/emotionally distressing situation

      2. Greater Power + 3. Life to God + 5. Admit defects to God + 6. Ask God to fix you + 7. Ask God to fix you, again + 11. Pray to God + 12. Have a spiritual awakening = Receive unconditional love from charasmatic leader

      People who make it through AA are not supposed to associate with anybody who drinks = Entrapment

      A number of those could be repeated to make "their problems are reduced to a simple explanation" and it is simple to say "they gain a new identity from the group."
  • LewP, on 05/21/2008, -17/+28Here is my question. Who cares if it's a cult or not? As long as the program works for SOME people, why try to classify it as a cult? I think this was a great read by Brian. He's explained more about AA than I ever knew about. The point I want to make is, regardless of whether it's a cult or not...Kool-aid is sometimes much better than alcohol.
    • edwartica, on 05/21/2008, -4/+2Quite frankly I don't think its really hurting anyone. So yeah, who cares?!?!?!
    • TonyLocNE, on 05/21/2008, -1/+13Do you make that same argument for Scientology as well? Because Scientology works for some people, why try to classify it as a cult?
      • LewP, on 05/21/2008, -2/+1To be candid, I don't know a thing about Scientology other than it's controversial. And then I ask myself, why is it so controversial, and i go back to my loop of saying i don't know anything about it.
      • tont0r, on 05/22/2008, -1/+2yeah last i heard, AA doesnt require your money to help you. nor do they judge people you arent in AA. so your cant put them together.
    • mike17032, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3Because court ordered religion is *****.

      The success rate for AA is the same as the success rate for people that do it on their own.

      In other words, its a total failure.
    • tyywebb, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1I for one prefer alcohol in my kool-aid.
  • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -16/+8it's a terrible cult and a religion... they know pain so their God is much more powerful than other Gods. they also require you to dedicate yourself to their cult in toto.
    • bcuban, on 05/21/2008, -4/+12I'm in AA and I am an agnostic. Kind of shoots a hole in your theory doesn't it......
      • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -4/+5apparantly you have never read the 12 steps... also what do you do at the end when they all hold hands and pray... to God?
        • burjzyntski, on 05/21/2008, -2/+5they're praying to their _own_ "gods". everyone's perception of god is different, so it's just a word. at the end of a meeting i would pray to soteotu.
        • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -3/+3it's a "higher power" ie. athiesm is not allowed.
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3He's praying to his rock. That's his 'higher power'.
        • burjzyntski, on 05/21/2008, -3/+1by "higher power" they mean "a 'power' greater than yourself". if you think that YOU are #1 on the food chain, then you're wrong and need to reconsider. you can be atheist and believe in a higher power...as long as it isn't a god/deity.
    • GratefulGroover, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3There is no way I am wearing one of those things! Oh wait, not tutu. Nevermind
    • justjeninsf, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4From the AA 12 Traditions (the guiding principles of AA):
      Tradition Three: "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking." http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_appendiceI.cfm
      There is no requirement to "...dedicate yourself to their cult in toto" (though I'm totally not sure what "toto" means I assume you mean "completely"
  • alapoet, on 05/21/2008, -15/+8It's a cult, plain and simple. I've been to the meetings.
  • BXRWXR, on 05/21/2008, -21/+88AA IS NOT A CULT, SCIENTOLOGY IS A CULT
    • shutaro, on 05/21/2008, -3/+10You're a cult.
    • Zreitan, on 05/21/2008, -2/+7Your mom's a cult
      • Accolade1, on 05/21/2008, -1/+6Who's a *****?
        • edwartica, on 05/21/2008, -3/+2She sure was last night!!!
        • Jassman, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1They are both cults... different motivations, yeah, but cults nonetheless.
    • Hetman, on 05/21/2008, -6/+2How about you look up the word cult. It does not matter if they are positive or negative for your society. AA is still a cult.
      • zepher5150, on 05/21/2008, -3/+3Sorry Tom Cruise,

        but AA is not a cult.
        why:
        No central authority structure. No one is handing down edicts from the top saying you must do this or that to stay in the group. This is because there is no top. To be a cult an organization as a whole must have a “top” in terms of its authority structure.

        Just a place to go if you want help to stop drinking and using.

        But, I will admitt I always thought the next great American serial killer would come from A.A.
    • sindex, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3You got served....


      ... with a legal summons in the UK.
  • mellaart, on 05/21/2008, -14/+6It's a cult for unhappy man who don't believe in themselves!
    • edwartica, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4or people who can't speak proper English.
    • eltrev, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Is your first language chinese? I think chinese man funny, make me very happy.
  • smackieattk, on 05/21/2008, -7/+21Damn, but if Charles Manson isn't a handsome man.
  • Zreitan, on 05/21/2008, -21/+40We Are Alcoholics Anonymous,
    We do not forgive you.
    We do forget after a night of solid drinking
    We are often late for work
    Expect us, to fail.
    • ZaZ2137, on 05/21/2008, -2/+2Dug up for being clever.
    • Beltiras, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Al-Anons have a saying:

      "Great, it's only AFTER they sober up they become anonymous."
  • kerguelen72, on 05/21/2008, -8/+22Charles Manson picture has same look in eyes as Hillary
    • gannondork, on 05/21/2008, -0/+5Except I would rather have Him running the country over Hillary.
    • RoccoMcTaco, on 05/21/2008, -0/+0Funny, I thought the 1st Lady had the same look as Manson when I first saw her picture.
  • mypetridish, on 05/21/2008, -16/+1But but but... John McCain will put the national interest ahead of partisanship, he will work with anyone who sincerely wants to get this country moving again. If John McCain is elected President, the era of the permanent campaign will end. The era of problem solving will begin.
    • enclaved, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Yes, and the problem that everyone will be trying to solve is getting mccain out of office.
  • legendxx, on 05/21/2008, -10/+5Oh god, don't get the script kiddies over at Anon started.
    • FishHammer, on 05/21/2008, -0/+6so, what, 4chan is called Anon now?
    • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Anonymous isn't really a "group" per say...
  • shadowspawn, on 05/21/2008, -25/+16AA is not a cult. It can be "cult-ish" as that members treat non-members differently, but that's about where the distinction ends. AA is nothing but a religious zealot group formed to deal with pretend issues that because of their member's beliefs, become real issues (from AA's teachings) and AA justifies it all and finds reasons for everything. Basically non-members are the reason the current members are there, and only through their practices and beliefs can you become AA."normal".person, when you are really a person.normal.AA

    Wait a second.... it *is* a cult!
    • burjzyntski, on 05/21/2008, -4/+5AA is *not* a religious program; it is a spiritual program.
      Everyone is totally open to their own interpretations of things. The 12 Steps are not rules, they are suggestions. Step 4: "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves". If you've successfully completed step 4 then there should be no reason to unjustly blame our own problems on others.
      • sindex, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4Really?
        1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
        2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
        3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
        4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
        5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
        6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
        7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
        8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
        9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
        10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
        11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
        12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

        Not a religious program? 4 of the 12 steps mention God explicitly. Another 3 mention God implicitly. If more than half your "steps" revolve around the teachings of God, I call you a religious organization.
        • zepher5150, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3 Many people in AA have the God issue. It's more about surrendering to the fact that you are not God...that perphaps your best thinking isn't working out too well.

          AA does not believe people will go to hell if you don't believe.

          3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

          emphasis on "As we understood Him." Great thing is AA lets you decide what your higher power is...not any group..it's personal experience to having a spiritual experience. Trust me, it's no way a religoius group.

          AA does not dictate you believe in a religon or god even..There is a chapter called "We Agnostics" that really breaks it down.

          The 12 steps are suggestions that the founder used to help stop drinking.
          A person can take it or leave it...Depending on your ability to stop drinking on your own...is what you will give validity to Bill W's suggetions.
        • Wartyboskfapped, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2The twelve steps were partly worded with the help of atheists. Read about the founding members of AA. Many were atheists.
        • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Why are the people seemingly most in control of their concept of God (that it doesn't exist) often the first to hyperventilate when the G-word comes up?

          I am an atheist and a ten-year member of AA. I managed to *somehow* make the connection that I could define higher power and God as I liked and still work the program.

          You're the evangelist here, and unfortunately, when you work so hard to throw the baby out with the bathwater you're damning an organization that's saving people's lives on what, for 90 percent of the people in that room (I promise you), is a technicality .

          Believe it or not, even we alcoholics have the ability to put things like that in perspective.
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -1/+0jesus you're an idiot. 1. its not religious at all, its spiritual and most people in AA hate religion FYI. 2. the issues are not pretend, its dealing with addiction, something that kills people daily and destroys lives, how is that ***** pretend? 3. nonmembers are the reason the current members are there wtf? no members are in it to stay sober, it has nothing to do with nonmembers at all...you're throwed off man.
  • caleb4mj, on 05/21/2008, -9/+5Capitalists, or, well, almost all groups become cults when groupthink sets in. Just look at the US Gov.
    • caleb4mj, on 05/21/2008, -0/+6I mean, you're either with us or against us.
    • analogkid01, on 05/21/2008, -3/+4Buried for cookie-cutter anti-capitalism. Can you please post an original thought instead?
      • caleb4mj, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

        An original thought was not required for this reply.
    • liuite, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1case in point - the Warren Buffet cult in omaha
  • narcofiche, on 05/21/2008, -11/+3I always thought it was very cult-like. Twelve steps, twelve commandments? Isn't AA owned by a Christian church? I know of some people who have been going to AA sober for 15+ years. Can't organize thoughts today.
    • MikeFallopian, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5Also, 2 words in "Alcoholics Anonymous" and 2 words in "Holy Bible"... coincidence?
      • narcofiche, on 05/21/2008, -0/+5Jesus had a beard, which sounds a lot like 'beer.'
    • mewho, on 05/21/2008, -1/+3Um, narcofiche? That's 10 commandments, not 12.
    • getbusyliving, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Sounds like you can't organize your own thoughts.
  • forgiste, on 05/21/2008, -7/+20If you think AA is bad, check out Narconon. They use narcotics addiction as a path to Scientology...
    • Rivfader, on 05/21/2008, -1/+10That explains why so many celebs turn into "scientologists"
      • electricdragon, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1I never considered that connection, good work.
  • N256, on 05/21/2008, -3/+43The Twelve Steps of AA

    1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
    2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
    3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
    4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
    5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
    6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
    7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
    8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
    9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
    10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
    11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
    12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
    • Lapper, on 05/21/2008, -7/+26And there you go. Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and 12 involve recognizing either god, praying, or "surrendering" to him. This is all well and good for people who joined voluntarily, but people can be forced into this organization by a judge's mandate.
      • subliminalurge, on 05/21/2008, -0/+11People who are forced to attend by a judge don't do any of those steps. They show up, sit for the hour, get their little sheet signed, then go home.

        That's all the judge can require, or even verify.

        (And for the record, it works just as well to take the sheet down to the bar with you and get people there to sign it. All you need are signature.)
        • popfrogs, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2If a judge is forcing you to go to AA meetings, I doubt having people sign your sheet at a bar is doing you much good.
        • subliminalurge, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1It's not doing you much good as far as recovering from alcoholism. But it does you plenty of good as far as satisfying the judge. Remember, it's called Alcoholics "Anonymous" for a reason. The court has no way of knowing if those people attend meetings or not.
      • ToRoE, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Courts force repeat offenders into going a few times, certainly not signing over all worldly possessions. i.e. Having them look at getting help for a problem that lead them to Court, repeatedly. One they are having trouble solving on their own, since they have repeated the behavior...

        No one in A A will force you to stay, or demand you believe in anything more specific then whether you have a drinking problem or not. period.
        • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1They won't even demand that. Since meetings aren't interactive, and you're discouraged from speaking directly to other peoples' situations, you're welcome to use up the entire hour talking about how you're not a freaking addict and the judge is crazy.

          And you'd still be helping people by providing a useful contrast to their own decisions on the subject.
      • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -4/+4Nobody is being forced to attend AA. You were presented with a choice in your life, made the wrong choice and ended up in front of a judge. Then the judge gives you another choice. Go to jail for the crime you already committed or go to AA. It's still your choice. If you have a problem with the ties between AA and Christianity you need to realize two things, the religious aspect of it is minimal and it's still your choice to be there.
        • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Well, It's not that i have a problem with it, but If any of the steps involved a different religion, Christians would be bitching their ASSES off. "But it's minimal!"
        • WNW3, on 05/21/2008, -2/+2A choice between jail with criminals or meetings with drunks isn't really much of a choice at all
        • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2@nmnnotmyname
          Fundamental Christians and fanatical Christians yes, but they aren't the only kind of Christians out there. They unfortunately just seem to have the loudest voice.
          @WNW3
          You are over looking the original choice that landed you in front of the judge to begin with.
        • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Sure, But that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, and that was my point.

          For me, yeah, I'll take the easy way, Not drinking...
    • rockwithme000, on 05/21/2008, -6/+27If you read Step 3, it says "God as we understand him." When I joined AA, it was explained to me that AA does not have to be a spiritual program. God can stand for Group Of Drunks, referring to AA as your Higher Power. This definitely sounds cult-ish, but its not. God is used as an accountability in the program, something which is stronger than you are that can be a foundation for your recovery. AA was my foundation.
      • DeaconBlues2112, on 05/21/2008, -3/+9So then step 6 could read "Were entirely ready to have Group of Drunks remove all these defects of character"? Why even put the word "God" or the concept of spirituality in there at all?
        • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -1/+3Because it was a different world when the book was written and that is why most modern versions simply reference the "higher power".
        • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2...Okay, Then why can't it be changed? Is it a holy document >_<
          Sorry, Couldn't help it...
        • ClemsonPoker, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2That's what makes the earlier claim BS.

          It changes it's members thinking, beats them down, convinces them they are worthless, and they preach their "truth" to every non-member they can.

          Another important aspect of a cult is that the people who are inside don't realize they're in a cult.
        • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2beats them down??? just about everyone goes into AA beaten down, and leaves picked back up, you got it backwards man...
        • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2for simplicities sake, God is defined in step 2 as "a power greater than ourselves", thats it...then the rest they just say "God" probably just to make it easier to read and simpler etc., however everytime you read "God" in AA, it basically means "a power greater than yourself", its all the same in AA...get it now? it really isnt as religion based as the atheists want it to be.
        • Laminarcissus, on 05/22/2008, -1/+2--- "So then step 6 could read "Were entirely ready to have Group of Drunks remove all these defects of character?" ---

          Yes, that's exactly how it worked for me. Being an atheist is not the same thing as being a rock and an island. Sitting with that Group of Drunks acted as a constant reminder that I was investing something in my sobriety, listening to them reminded me that I had many things to gain and many things to lose, and I was forced to recognize that their collective wisdom and experience was far greater than my own as a single individual.

          I have ten years clean now, and I know I couldn't have done it without that G. o D., and it's my faith in that G.o D. that allows me to believe I can have ten more.
      • Laminarcissus, on 05/22/2008, -1/+4The Twelve Steps were also written in 1934, a time when religion was much more pervasive than now.

        Like me, any comfortable atheist/addict can easily make his own decisions about religion while still not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

        I'm glad, however, that most of the people holding down the anti-religion camp are so far from addiction that they can quibble over these details, it's a bit like saying that a person hanging from a cliff shouldn't be thrown a rope because it's the wrong color.

        An addict doesn't have a lot of resources for help that are as widespread as AA, and going, even if it involves the occasional Spaghetti Monster, beats dying.
    • dstz, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1Wow, there are at least two points that are actually related to alcohol addiction.
      • Tehrab, on 05/22/2008, -0/+3That's because alcoholism is the symptom, not the problem.

        The problem is emotional (or spiritual, if you prefer) in nature and is often centered around a complete absence of self-esteem. Not low self-esteem, mind you, but literally no sense of personal value. For most people, this is a foreign concept, so much so that they find it difficult to believe that such a state of mind even exists much less empathize with the constant pain such a person feels. Ironically, even people who are living that nightmare are often times only aware of the realities of it on a near-subconscious level.

        It's human nature to search for a way to alleviate pain, profoundly so when the pain is constant. Alcohol is one of mankind's most consistent pain killers so it's a natural progression. But it isn't only alcohol, it can be drugs, gambling, sex, smoking, eating or anything else that numbs the pain for a time.

        So, now that you know a little more, hopefully you can see why the 12 steps scarcely deal with the symptom and instead focus on the problem.
  • bobbarkerbilly, on 05/21/2008, -4/+39No love for alcoholic atheists.
    • TheMachine1, on 05/21/2008, -2/+5Atheists use antabuse(technology). They understand addiction is not a moral defect. But like any other health problem.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antabuse
      • Niallgriff, on 05/21/2008, -0/+4You don't speak for all Atheists.
      • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+0i've known many alcoholics that have drank even when on antabuse, it doesn't really work and doesn't get to the real problem and reason people drink to excess. its a deterrent yes but deterrents only work to a certain extent. if you're a really sick alcoholic, antabuse will not help you honestly.
    • Happy_Phantom, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1We don't like you either. You drive us to drink!
    • Wartyboskfapped, on 05/21/2008, -0/+6There are plenty of atheists in AA.
    • WhatInThe42o, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3Yes, there is love for alcoholic atheists, it's just not as well known. http://www.rationalrecovery.org is a fantastic program, with none of the traps of AA, and no theistic overtones. No 12 step program, no demeaning surrender of personal accountability, and no safety net of being told that you'll never be cured. In 15 minutes the 'crash course' found on that website changed my life, and I haven't touched a drop of booze since (sober 18 months, 10 days).
  • Niteryder, on 05/21/2008, -8/+2I disagree with such an assessment. It is gathering place
    required even by courts for people with alcoholic lifestyles,
    so they can help each other out of a stomach habits
    that enslave them.
  • TheMachine1, on 05/21/2008, -5/+9One thing that improves recovery is to get away from people who are not in recovery/clean. Cults try to isolate you from your friends and family. So that's cult like if all your buddies and family are still heavy drinkers.
    • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1There is a difference between telling someone "stay away from other drunks if you desire to be sober" and telling someone "cut all ties with your family or we will beat you with a stick or whatever".
  • Carl306, on 05/21/2008, -9/+14"What comes to your mind when you hear the word cult?" - Scientology

    UH OH!!!
    • caleb4mj, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1groupthink
      • nmnnotmyname, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2Oh shut the hell up already. Go groupthink yourself into a ditch.
  • gdog05, on 05/21/2008, -12/+3People don't need AA. They just a-wrack disiprine!
    • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2great episode... right on the money.
  • h3lx, on 05/21/2008, -11/+17Do they hoard firearms and ***** children? No... well they can't be a cult.
    Is there any obligation to keep coming back (aside from the one mandated by the court)? There are no membership dues, no mandatory participation while in attendance... you can show up, put a quarter in the coffee bin and smoke cigarettes and get chatty and not commit to a goddamn thing... you don't even have to tell them your real name.

    Now if you do choose to get involved, it's a program that has proved very successful for thousands upon thousands of people. Who does it hurt if you become overly obsessed with your involvement in staying sober?
    • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -4/+3Are you sure about that thousands upon thousands of people? Okay, maybe many people quit drinking for a short time but for how long did they stay off the wagon? The best results anyone can find (odd how a successful program such as AA is unwilling to publish their success rates) show that quitting cold turkey is just as effective. After five years, both methods have a 5% success rate. Wait...maybe that's why they don't publish them. Can't legally mandate a proven failure but something in which we have no info on...that's a different story.
      • h3lx, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4Dad has been sober 15 years now. That whole "Keep coming back it works if you work it" has a bit of truth to it. Thousands upon thousands is fairly vague number and accurate in generalization, there are chapters in just about every city, town, providence, county... military bases, prisons. So of the millions that go through the program, even at 5% success, that more than quantifies thousands upon thousands.

        From 1934 to present day, I'd put the number into the millions.
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Congratulations to your dad. I know what it's like. AA has kept my dad sober for 20+ years. But I still credit him with his sobriety. He turned his life around all by himself. Sure things got hard, and AA did give him the support he needed, but the choice to get sober and stay sober was all his.

          My point is this: How many of those who were 'helped' stayed off the wagon? You can't say you helped someone if they only stay sober for one year. At that point, the program is a failure. I just don't want people feeling that it is the only answer. I'm showing how there are other things out there that also work. You should be allowed a choice in your recovery program, even if your choice is to go cold turkey. You have the same chances anywhere. It only works if you want it to.
      • Scycon, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1The success rates aren't great how can you be suprised by that? In order to give up alcohol you have to truly want to. Many people are at AA because they are told they need to go and therefore most likely won't quit. The success rates are astronomically low because besides court ordered visits you aren't required to keep going. Nor do you have to want to quit. So success rates are meaningless. Alcoholism is a disease without a medicinal cure. If A.A. helps some then let it be.
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1I'm just pointing out that AA really has nothing to do with their recovery (in essence, you agreed with me). If it works, it's because they wanted it to. I'm just trying to fight this 'AA is the only way' mentality that has gone on for long enough. And stop with the courts mandating it. You can tell someone that they need to get help but you can't force them to join one specific program. Especially when that program has shown that it isn't the panacea that some people try to say it is.
        • Scycon, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1I somewhat agree, but I won't say AA has nothing to do with recovery. Part of the reason it does work for some people is because it gives them hope. The people there can give you the confidence to say no and lead you down the path to sobriety. I know it's not much of an example but my father is sober 10 years and he goes to AA meetings just because he wants to help others and the support from other people certainly can help.

          Of course AA is not the only way, I don't believe it's not a way though. What should courts do otherwise?
    • WhatInThe42o, on 05/21/2008, -1/+3While there is no threat of physical harm if you do not return, there is a clearly stated threat of emotional harm: AA states in unequivocal terms that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, and only through constant participation in the program can you stay temporarily clean. You are taught that failure to attend meetings will cause you to return to drinking, because you have no power over your urges. You show me the bottle of beer that can open itself, float to my mouth, force my head back, and then pour itself down my throat, and that will be the day I admit I am powerless over alcohol. Not a second before.
    • Greanbeens, on 05/22/2008, -1/+1Citation on how it has helped "millions" please.
  • shadowman99, on 05/21/2008, -13/+8Oh noes! They use the God word! They must be little robots!

    You know, atheists are just as in-your-face as any Jesus-crispy I've ever met. Diff is the christians will wear in on their sleave and they're honest about who they are.
    • JigoroKano, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2The god thing is almost irrelevant.

      What is dangerous is that AA preaches that people are too weak to get over their failings. They preach helplessness and dependence.
      • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1If you go to an AA meeting by your own choice you have already admitted that you cannot make it on your own. They don't have to preach it to you.
  • Wakuko, on 05/21/2008, -21/+16You have a drinking problem
    You get help to recover
    You get hooked into religion
    You get sucked out of your money for the rest of your life

    That's a dangerous cult
    • justjeninsf, on 05/21/2008, -1/+8how are you getting "sucked out of your money?" there are no dues or fees.
    • orblivion, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4Wait where does the money part come in
    • Anonchrist, on 05/21/2008, -2/+1The money part comes after you find a church that can take it.
      *He was not saying that AA wanted your money
    • d3dm, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2>>You get sucked out of your money for the rest of your life


      Sounds like income taxes to me.
    • Scycon, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2Except if you know anything about church you aren't required to give a penny if you don't want to. You're supposed to give out of the kindness of your heart and are told that if you aren't then you shouldn't be giving.
      • JeffD, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1Ok so you're pressured into giving money, morally not quite the same... but effectly there is no difference.
        • Scycon, on 05/22/2008, -0/+0You are encouraged to give because the money you give at church helps fund utilities within the church and helps families in need of finances. They tell you that good things happen to those who give, but if you give out of guilt or condemnation you are better off not giving at all. Similar to the concept of karma.

          The "pressure" is all in a lot of people's heads or you just haven't been to the right Church, especially since the tithe is such a small part of church in general.
  • PosedMagnet, on 05/21/2008, -18/+12AA is just a front to get you to become religious.

    It's BS.
    • Ravatar, on 05/21/2008, -5/+5Religion isn't a bad thing. Do some research into Einstein's thoughts on 'a personal God'.

      Organized, pay-us-or-go-to-hell religion is bad, but AA doesn't require any particular religion.
      • Anonchrist, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1He said religion not personal beliefs or "spirituality."
      • err404, on 05/21/2008, -1/+2"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
        -- Albert Einstein,
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+0haha seriously research something before you criticize it, AA has nothing to do with religion and most people in AA dislike religion, if they didn't they would go to church and not AA in the first place, good quote i've heard in a meeting - "religion is for people who want to get into heaven, spirituality is for people who have been to hell and don't want to go back", AA is SPIRITUAL, NOT RELIGIOUS, THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE, HATERS ARE JUST IGNORANT!
  • Hetman, on 05/21/2008, -11/+9Yea it is a cult. And what about atheists? Obviously AA is not going to work for them. They need to restructer it and take out everything refering to God or a higher being.
    • Ravatar, on 05/21/2008, -5/+4That's the entire point of the program, using faith (whatever kind it may be) to overcome a personal struggle. It sounds as if this wouldn't be the system for you. Feel free to make your own anti-theism alcoholics recovery system.
      • bobbarkerbilly, on 05/21/2008, -1/+8As long as the judge approves my "Home Atheist Recovery Program" then I have no problem with AA, but yeah, that's never going to happen.
    • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+6But then there's only five steps. That's no fun. Gotta have twelve if you want to sound professional.
    • moxley, on 05/22/2008, -0/+2Not that I am defending 12 step groups, but I do feel an obligation to fight against ignorance.

      I am an atheist, and I have ben in a 12 step group before.

      There are many athiest there. Your "high power" can be a ***** tree or a rock or "nothing."

      It doesn't matter and doesn't have to be associated with and religion or deity.
  • analogkid01, on 05/21/2008, -3/+18All the comments about AA members sleeping with each other makes me want to go to an AA meeting to pick up chicks. Anyone ever done this?
    • MysticSavage, on 05/21/2008, -0/+6Myself, no. A recovering alcoholic friend of mine has gotten more tail since joining the program than he could stand. Take out the alcohol and you have to replace it with something.
    • borez, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5If you want to go pull a recovering alchoholic be my guest mate, it'll end in tears though.
    • invisiblehat, on 05/21/2008, -0/+5NA is where you really want to go to pick up chics. Those girls are way more desperate and freaky.
    • getbusyliving, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2It's called "thirteen stepping". Supposedly a great way to take advantage of woman who are at a low point in their lives and need some support.
  • itsfunny, on 05/21/2008, -6/+1Ugggh. Let me guess....Anonymous again? xD
  • chubbybubba, on 05/21/2008, -8/+9AA is for quitters!
  • omgTHEPATRIOTS, on 05/21/2008, -5/+10It's not a cult, but it sure spreads a cult-like mentality. I lost my best friend to this, they and his girlfriend managed to convince him that his problems originated from the drinking and drug use when in reality, in his case, those were symptoms of his problems, not the origin. Now that he's gone to meetings, he's started lashing out at me, his friends and family saying that we were the cause of his problems when in reality we were trying to help him. This seems to be a common theme amongst people I know going through AA -- they comiserate with each other and yet often they do not find the answer to their own problems, instead in a group they conjure up their own storyline as to what ails them.
    • borez, on 05/21/2008, -0/+8Totally agree, I used to call the meetings the "Room of Doom" where basically you go and feel sorry for yourself while others listen, then you listen to them feeling sorry for themselves. Complete waste of time and, to be honest, it made me feel like my life was over.


      • omgTHEPATRIOTS, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3I've had my own problems but I'm so glad I resisted the route of going to AA -- I've known far too many who've done this and couldn't solve their problems; many who keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

        It's a good thing to have ambition and lofty goals to work yourself to, but in my experience doing that with a god is selling yourself out, because instead of holding yourself to the people around you and those that care about you, you do it with a mystical pie in the sky guy.
    • gurudrew, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2AA is not causing your friend's problems or attitude. Apparently he's just a dick.
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -1/+0um your friend is just a dick and you're probably better off without him man. if you knew anything about AA and the big book you would know it states that the alcoholic is the problem, not the drugs or alcohol, which is just a symptom. just cause your friend was in AA, took the principles and things stated in the book and twisted them in his own demented mind is no reason for you to think AA is a cult. seriously though, if you're friend is like that just quit talking to him and if he gets better then start talking to him again. the end.
      • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2That happens a lot, and the best thing you can do as a friend is be patient.

        I've been off drugs and alcohol for ten years, and getting clean was the hardest thing I've ever done. I was a serious dick for a year while I re-discovered my personality.

        You may be right, that quitting may be revealing underlying causes, like bipolar disorder or depression. If so, drug and alcohol use make it worse, and he should be treated for those conditions with doctor-supervised drugs with fewer deadly side-effects.

        If you are his friend, there are two possibilities -- you're the using and enabling friend that everybody in any rehab program knows he has to stay away from to stay clean. If that's the case, then if things go right you'll never see him again, and that's a good thing, or you'll do your best to pull him back to his old life and most like contribute to his early death.

        Or, you're that friend that can stand up to change and is willing to be supportive, even when his buddy's going through a super-dickish period, because you know it's better for him in the long run.

        So which sounds more like a friend?
  • kateyall, on 05/21/2008, -16/+21I did my time in a rehab or two. The courts like for you to have a "graduation" certificate after you complete your 28 days, or whatever the term may be. I never could get one because I refused to accept the 12 steps and would not shut up about how "submitting to a higher power" was such a crock of *****. Oh, and it's totally a cult. IMHO.
    • StrokerAce, on 05/21/2008, -1/+3I did the rehab thing, too. There were AA/NA meetings there that you were required to attend while at the facility, and for a lot of people there, it was a religious experience. I'm not so into group hugs myself, so I straightened up my act and got the hell out.

      I'm all for anything that'll help people get their life back on track, but, for ME, it seemed a little cultish. I'm lucky - as long as I'm not around it, I don't think about it. Just don't leave your Vicodin in a candy dish if I come over...
    • Shawn4168, on 05/21/2008, -1/+3Funny how the person that landed themselves in rehab in the first place has the nerve to call a group a "crock of *****".
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -1/+0the rehabs i've been to will graduate you no matter what you say about the program and if you work steps or not. you just have to pay the fees and go to the sessions. and fyi, rehab has NOTHING to do with AA and AA has no ties to rehabs, they are two seperate entities. rehabs will recommend AA but thats about it. AA never says anything about rehabs EVER. a lot of people i know in AA actually dislike rehabs cause a lot of them are just ways for the owners to get rich and AA is not about getting anyone rich, since its free or at most a dollar to go to an AA meeting. in the end you're confusing two seperate things, rehab is NOT AA.
    • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1One addict to another -- if you've had the opportunity to go to a "rehab or two," and court-ordered no less, it sounds like you have a higher power, it just isn't God.

      So forget AA or rehab for the moment, maybe you want to just sit in a dark room and think about how "refusing to accept" things and "not shutting up about" stuff is working out for you. You may discover that you're being ruled more restrictively by your habits, behaviors, and conceits than any metaphysical God would ever aspire to.

      You sound like quite the little spark plug and believe me, you don't have to give that up when you get clean. Just the opposite, you still get to refuse to accept things and not shut up, but all with an air of superior moral authority that comes from someone who has done something harder than anyone in the general population can ever imagine.
      • kateyall, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1AA just was not for me. That was the backbone of the rehabs I attended. Maybe not all, but both I've been to. What worked for me? Growing up. I was just a ***** teenager, you know? Just in over my head a little bit. Heroin and cocaine are a hell of a drug. Especially mixed together in a rig. I'm much better now though. I just had to move away for a little while and get away from all of the people I was mixed up with. Like I said, grow up a little. Pay some bills. Get some time under my belt. Now things are super :)
  • dn11, on 05/21/2008, -6/+18You guys are seriously annoying with all your cult finger pointing. I'm a border line atheist, and I'll be the first one to laugh at a scientologist - but if you seriously feel you are "exposing the evils of AA" you all come off as a bunch of children that know nothing about alcoholism or the damage it can do. Do I think that people need god in order to stop drinking? No, but some people already believe in god, and the structure that AA gives them allows them to become functional human beings again - and many people get support from AA who don't really care about god one way or another - it is about the community and having people there that have been through what you're going through. If you have nothing better to do than attack AA, get lives.
    • Hetman, on 05/21/2008, -4/+4It still technically a cult. It does not matter if it helps people or hurts people.
      • Stettenbauer, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1It still technically a cult?How?Did you read the article?
    • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -3/+2coming from someone who has clearly never spent any time in AA meetings.
      • dn11, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2no because I'm not an alcoholic, recovering or otherwise. but I have family that has, and believe, they are a lot better off than they were. and their belief in god didn't change. they believed in a higher power before and after going to AA - and no one at AA told them what that higher power constituted or what it should mean to them. I'm someone that believes in freedom of thought - that includes freedom to believe in god or not, to go to AA or not etc
        • suzywang3000, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1so were the stepford wives
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1They've changed the idea that 'God' can mean anything you want it to but it's just them trying to have it both ways. It's very clear from all the steps that they are referring to a Christian 'God'. They only changed things when non-believers had a problem with being forced to listen to religious ideas. Now they want to say that 'God' can be anything. Personally, I'm not buying it.

          AA may help some people, but it's absurd to think that it's the only thing that helps people. I've heard of other programs that are much more successful than AA simply because they didn't force you give yourself up to a higher power. They try to find out WHAT made you start drinking. Honestly, that's the only real way to solve this problem. Find out why people turn to the bottle in the first place.
        • dn11, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3it all depends on the AA chapter - as is pointed out in this article - there is no central authority - different chapters interpret the meaning of the steps in their own way. I don't think it is the only thing that helps people - but for many people it is the only thing that helps. I also know a guy that somehow just managed to quit cold turkey one day, at it has been over 15 years. he doesn't particularly believe in god. to each their own.
    • WhatInThe42o, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1"Borderline atheist?" What the ***** is that?
  • inajeep, on 05/21/2008, -2/+8You can't throw the entire organization out with the couple of messed up ones. The problem with any organization is usually the people that are in it.
  • darthgarlic, on 05/21/2008, -7/+7"What comes to your mind when you hear the word cult?"

    $cientology.
  • galvo, on 05/21/2008, -13/+4It involves God; it's a cult.
  • Jack9, on 05/21/2008, -8/+8Over thousands of years, people have suffered from alcoholism (the addiction). Everything has been tried, from cutting off body parts to imprisonment, to strict alienation and expulsion into the wild.
    No known "cure" or treatment works as well, statistically, than AA. In fact, AA fails to change the behavior of a good portion of attendees. If they mention God, if they are a cult, all irrelevant. It's a government funded program because it's the most effective measure and the methods are simply a means to a solution.
    • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+4You should double-check those numbers. They have the same results as quitting cold turkey. All it is is government mandated religion. As soon as the legal system recognizes that other programs are just as effective (if not more) and they stop forcing people to attend 90 AA meetings in 90 days, then I won't have a problem with it. At that point, it all becomes about personal choice which everyone should have.

      EDIT: After re-reading your post, I'm not entirely sure what side your on, but there's my two cents on your statement:
      "No known "cure" or treatment works as well, statistically, than AA."
      • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+0the numbers aren't exactly the same, yes AA's success rate is close to the rate of quitting cold turkey but AA actually is a little bit better in successes. and fyi its not govt. funded at all, where do you get these "facts"? and for the 90 in 90 for court problem, all you gotta do is sign the sheet yourself and forge the signatures, AA is ANONYMOUS, which means they cant verify signatures, i guess you weren't bright enough to get that trick huh? step your game up, real alcoholics and addicts will figure that trick out in like a wk at most.
    • Canadiangeezer, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5Sorry to correct you but AA has no affiliation to any entity and is not in any way government funded ... Just thought we should clear that little item up!
    • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2AA is not govt. funded, its SELF-SUPPORTING, this post reeks of blind ignorance. and everyone needs to realize that in AA "God" = "a power greater than yourself", which is far from the God of religion for all the idiots out there.
    • Laminarcissus, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2The government doesn't fund AA. AA doesn't work, or claim to work, any better than various other programs, it simply claims to be there when you need it.

      Science still has no known predictors for addiction besides a strong genetic component, and there are no magic bullets, but we do know that it's better than no help at all, and that in itself justifies its existence.
  • Diran, on 05/21/2008, -8/+3*cough* Penn and Teller *cough*
  • Shanich, on 05/21/2008, -6/+15 Its the only thing that works , so call it what you want , are you an alcoholic ? I am a recovering alcoholic for life , AA helped me , God helped me , if you gotta problem with my 11 years of sobriety let me know , maybe you would like me back on your highways drunk , sometimes blackout drunk , maybe you would like me fighting people all the time , and fooling around with your wife or girlfriend after we get drunk , maybe you would like me to be your problem employee , i could be the guy that just doesn't show up sometimes or show up still drunk and maybe i will through up on you !!!! Second thought I am happy to be a drug and alcohol free human being , thank you God . Peace .
    • Hetman, on 05/21/2008, -10/+2Or maybe you could just take responsiblity for your actions and stopped getting drunk. Im sorry you had to give up free will to become sober.
      • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+0if you were an alcoholic you would know how hard it is to stop, i understand your ignorance though cause its just as impossible for me to know how minorities feel about things since i am white. but on your second statement, how does one give up free will by getting sober and going to AA??? i don't get that logic at all.
      • Laminarcissus, on 05/22/2008, -0/+2That's what he did -- he took responsibility for his actions and used AA to stop getting drunk. Something that's far more difficult than posting armchair lectures on digg.

        And as someone with ten years clean myself, I can tell you that stopping is exactly the opposite of how you would portray it -- quitting drugs and alcohol is such an enormous exercise in free will that being successful makes you understand your strength more than most.

        I'm an atheist, and I understand how you can feel that the pervasiveness of religion can feel a little oppressive at times, but you've never felt the oppression of addiction. Once you have a memory of that, then having to parse out some religious tendencies in texts that were written in the 1930s in order to stay not dead is kid's stuff.
      • Stettenbauer, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1That's what the majority of the program is about ..responsibility.He needed the help of other people in AA,so AA helped him become a more responsible person and to take responsibility for the damage he has done to others and himself.As far as freewill is concerned he never had it ,until he gave up the idea he couldn't control his drinking..I should know ..I tried everything and nothing worked,except the 12 steps and the people that have gone though the same thing I went though.
    • popfrogs, on 05/21/2008, -8/+4Longest. sentence. ever.

      Maybe you should get back on the bottle and avoid the internet.
    • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+5First I would like to congratulate you on your sobriety. That's a big step for anyone to take.

      Here's where we differ in opinion. I don't think that AA is the ONLY thing that works. It works for some but not all. The only problem that some people have with it is that it's a religion-based program that is mandated by the courts, and a lot of the times it has the same results as just stopping without any help. People should be allowed to choose which recovery program they feel will benefit them the most. Obviously, AA was best for you. It wouldn't work for me, though, because I don't have faith in a God and don't feel like I should turn my life over to anyone. If anything, I should take control of my life and actively work towards sobriety.

      In your case, I would credit YOU with your sobriety. YOU took the initiative to attend all those meetings and YOU are the one who started making the choices that led to being sober for 11 years.
      • j2daedubblef, on 05/21/2008, -0/+1its not religion based, its spiritual based, there's a difference. i disagree with the courts forcing people to go, but that's the govt.'s fault, not AA's. AA has no link to the govt. at all, its self-sufficient and self-supporting. i don't get why AA gets the hate for something the govt. is doing. AA does not care if the courts send people at all, no one is getting money from AA, its free. and if you are mandated to go by the courts just forge the signatures. the fact that its an anonymous org. means they cant verify if the signatures so just make them up and stop whining that you got a DUI or whatever. also in AA, God basically just means a power greater than you. it has nothing to do with a religious God at all. it can be the group, a person other than you, anything other than you and drugs basically that you feel has more power than you. get educated before you hate on something so blindly please.
  • DeceitfulNinja, on 05/21/2008, -8/+3I'll tell you what bothers me most about AA. They teach their members alcoholism is a disease. This is NOT true. There has been no proof of this and it takes all responsibility away from the alcoholic. They have a substance addiction plain and simple, and yes if your parents are alcoholics you have a higher chance of being one yourself... duh, you were raised watching it your entire life. There has been no shred of evidence its a disease and it sure as hell isn't a fact. Yeah I'm bitter because my father has always been one as well as a drug addict, but "it's not my fault I have a disease". Great going AA!
    • SubjectiveC, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Most doctors agree that you're wrong. For about 200 years now.
      • jesusfish, on 05/21/2008, -1/+0citation?
      • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1[citation needed]
      • Scycon, on 05/21/2008, -2/+0Nevermind digitalagent explained it better and with a citation.
      • SubjectiveC, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1Oh, well. Most (if not all) drug dependencies are considered diseases as they all have a medical treatment. Saying a drug dependency is a disease is not the same as saying you were struck by it involuntarily. And is it really that hard to google things on your own? The very fist link is a well cited Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_theory_of_alc ...
    • ToRoE, on 05/21/2008, -0/+3Better read up on fresh data there prime Alan-on member. Both genetic markers as well as brain scans studies have pointed to identify Alcoholism as a identifiable trait.

      Does not mean it is hereditary. it does mean that it needs to be treated. Just like a Diabetic needs insulin daily, an alcoholic needs to be doing something (anything that works for him) daily to fight the behaviors that make him/her want to drink...

      so I have heard...
    • digitalagent, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1In 1956, the American Medical Association (AMA) stated alcoholism was a disease, as it met the five criteria needed in order to be considered a disease: pattern of symptoms, chronicity, progression, subject to relapse, and treatability.
      You=jackass.
      • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1"In 1956..." Things change. Remember when Pluto counted as a planet.

        BTW, I would really like to see an actual citation. I tried to look at the AMA records, but no such luck. You have to be 'special' to look at anything on that website. If I could actually look at where the AMA states such a thing, I would be willing to apologize to everyone who I disagree with.
        • jedcaum, on 05/22/2008, -1/+2I have to agree - you are a jackass.

          The actual citation, jackass, is the DSM IV, the accepted diagnositc manual used by every physician in the country. Probably means the're part of a cult, too.

          I'm sure you know this already, but if your father blames his inability to stop using on his disease, then he's a jackass, too. Maybe jackass is hereditary as well.

          In both cases, luckily, it is treatable, and need not be fatal. For me, the treatment for alcoholism and drug addiction has been AA, which helped me learn about personal responsibility and "doing the next right thing."

          For jackasses, might I suggest a healthy dose of STFU when you don't know what you are talking about., especially when your opinion could kill someone. After you say you're sorry, of course.
        • Linzee82, on 05/22/2008, -0/+1I'm happy AA worked for you. So you see the psycological help they gave you.

          I'm not dealing with you anymore because you'd rather call people names than actually discuss what they are trying to say.

          ***** off.
        • jedcaum, on 05/22/2008, -0/+0I am listening to what you are saying - but what you are saying is closeminded and not at all in line with actual professional opinion or citable references on the subject, yet you persist in spouting it anyway.

          And the possibility that someone who is on the edge sees it and says to themselves, "yep, see, linzee82 is right and I'm just a pile of crap, its all my fault and there's no hope for me," is very real, and potentially deadly. Alcoholics need to know that there is hope in order to recover from their hopeless state.

          Some people need the disease definition in order to seek treatment, and for them it is the only thing that makes it ok to admit they are alcoholic. For you to decide that it isn't and then stretch credulity trying to prove it is downright destructive. I agree that AA isn't for everyone - it almost wasn't for me - but that has nothing to do with whether or not alcoholism should or shouldn't be classified as a disease.

          And you are right - I shouldn't have called you or your father a jackass, and I apologize. And I ***** off a lot - not as much as I used to, but still.
    • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Don't know why you're being dugg down.

      It's NOT a disease. It's a behavioral problem. YOU make the choice to fill the glass with an alcoholic beverage and YOU make the choice to drink it. Maybe you have issues that make it harder to make the right decision, but it's still YOU making those decisions.

      Still think it's a disease? Go ask a cancer patient if alcholism is a disease. Yes, alcholism is a problem but it is far from a disease.
      • digitalagent, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1So the American Medical Association classifies it as a disease, but since Linzee and Ninja say it's not a disease, the AMA must be wrong? How much more self-absorbed can you be? You people are like those jackasses who get caught stealing on a surveillance camera and say, "I didn't do it." Linzee, seriously, did you read my post before you posted? What the ***** more proof do you need than a group of professional physicians classifying an illness as a disease before you agree? Are you a doctor or scientist?
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -0/+2First off, thanks for referring to me as a thief. You really don't know dick about me to be able to make a personal attack. But I'll take the higher road on this one.

          First, read this:
          http://www.cdc.gov/DiseasesConditions/az/A.html

          The CDC doesn't recognize it as a disease. They deal with diseases all the time while the AMA deals with general health. If it COULD be classified as a disease, why are we treating it the same? Why has NO progress been made for a "cure"? You can't say it's 'the man' holding down alcoholics. It's the simple fact that it's a psychological issue, not a disease. Yes, people may need professional help for it, but penicillin isn't curing this one.
      • Scycon, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1did you read what digitalagent just wrote? It meets 5 criteria in the definition of a disease. You can't just make up your own definition of what it is and then say it isn't one because there are more physically severe diseases out there. Cancer = a problem with your physical health and Alcoholism is a problem with your mental health and both fit the definition of disease.
        • Linzee82, on 05/21/2008, -1/+1Funny thing is the CDC (Center for DISEASE Control) doesn't recognize it as a disease:

          http://www.cdc.gov/DiseasesConditions/az/A.html

          I'm more likely to believe an organization that actually deals with diseases than an organization that deals with general health. Yes, it's a problem for those who have to live with it or someone who has a problem, but that's a far cry from disease. And if it COULD be classified as a disease, why are we treating it the same way we did 50 years ago?
        • jedcaum, on 05/22/2008, -1/+1You caught jackass from someone, for sure. The CDC deals with communicable diseases. Those are diseases that can be easily transmitted. Just because you can't catch alcoholism from the poor loser sitting next to you at the bar doesn't make it any less of a disease. And it certainly doesn't make the AMA any less an authority on what constitutes a disease? Are schizophrenics just people with weak personalities, then, and a propensity to overcompensate? You're an idiot.

          Your cancer patient example is false logic - just because cancer is a horrible, life threatening physical ailment, doesn't mean that alcoholism doesn't qualify in its own right. Alcoholics die agonizing deaths every day, and what's more, tend to take other people out with them. Not to mention the damage they do to those around them.

          I'm sure it has been bad for you, but I bet if you could get your dad to be honest for a second, he would tell you that his compulsio