What is Digg?96 Comments
- rjgutzeit, on 10/12/2007, -5/+44jerbaker:
Did you just seriously call psychology "not even a science at all" and then, in the very next sentence, diagnose the entire field with a neurotic inferiority complex? Maybe it's not a science as *you* practice it... - LemonZest, on 10/12/2007, -4/+35WoW was created to make money without regards to any psychological implications. :P
- zweben, on 10/12/2007, -4/+33Depression ≠ hurting yourself.
- rjgutzeit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17@kapsar:
"It is not based on observable and quantifiable experiments."
Completely ridiculous. Are you seriously telling me that no psychologist has ever conducted an observable and quantifiable experiment? So all those papers on brain glucose metabolism rates I've spent the past few weeks digging through were just figments of my imagination, huh?
"One of the major problems with psychology is the lack of repeatability."
Again, ridiculous. Clarify what you mean, because I can't accept that you really mean that no psychological experiment can ever be conducted again with a fresh batch of subjects. Are you objecting because you can't use the same subjects? Does that mean we can't do experiments on how much force it takes to break steel beams? Are you objecting because you can't expect exactly the same results, only probabilistic ones? Does that mean that quantum mechanics is a pseudo-science?
"The theories are also based more on opinions than anything that is actually testable. Theory of relativity, testable. Psychoanalysis of dreams is completely untestable as a theory."
Wow. I can pick out historical straw-men too. Epicycles are completely untestable. The Copenhagen interpretation of QM is completely untestable. Behold, for I have, in a single breath, proven that the entirety of astronomy and physics are completely bunk and make no testable predictions. I'll be here all night.
"Plus the only real results come along when some one wants to help themselves. You can hire the best psychiatrist in the world, but if the person refuses to change they will make no progress. Even with drugs, they will help, but unless the person wants to change they won't."
Oh? Is this your scientific hypothesis, superior to all prior psychology, for it is based on firm quantitative evidence and makes falsifiable predictions? Have you established the perfect measure of whether or not a given schizophrenic really wants to get better, and thus are able to predict in advance whether she'll respond to thorazine?
"In other sciences you want something to happen you can make it happen as long as you understand the mechanisms correctly, and then repeat it."
That statement is so vague it's meaningless. Do you understand the mechanical laws involved in knocking Neptune out of its orbit and into the Sun? Can you make it happen?
You clearly have no understanding of science. Go read more Karl Popper and get off my intarwebs. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19@kapsar: psychoanalysis _is not_ psychology. It is a tool used by psychologist but it's results have largely been disproven. It is no more effective as a therapy treatment than any other therapy (they are in fact all about equal in effectiveness.. which is, not that effective at all).
Psychology _is_ a science. It _is_ based (nowadays) in quantifiable, repeatable experiments. Instances in which experiments have difficulty being repeated are cases of poorly designed experiments -- and the fact that humans can still be unpredictable no matter how careful we are. It may be hard to label it a "hard" science but make no mistake -- it is a science. Period. I've taken enough psych classes (including a History of Psychology class that deals specifically with the issue of whether or not it is a real science) to know what I'm talking about.
The fact that you just used psychoanalysis as an example shows you don't know what you're talking about. Anyone who knows anything about psych knows that Freud was a hack and his results were false and made-up. Psychoanalysis only works at all because the people being treated with it think it is supposed to work, and/or they just don't get any sort of therapy at all otherwise. - raid517, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17That's all very well and good - until you realise the thousands of people who suffer horribly from depression and who are completely isolated and have no contact with family or friends - mainly because they are incapable of this because of their illness - at which point this person's argument falls to pieces.
Oh he's a psychiatrist? Well that explains it. Bunch of quacks the lot of them. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15Also, you mention psychiatrists. Psychologists are NOT psychiatrists. In fact, they are in direct competition with each other. Could it be any more obvious that you are talking out your ass?
- CoolWind, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11From my own experience I can say with great confidence, depression is NOT an evolutionary trait to elicit support from family and friends.
- lemoocow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@DyDx:
You're right in that psychologists are not psychiatrists. That does not mean they are in "direct competition." Psychiatrists have medical degrees and can prescribe medication. That's really the only difference. - Gaalsien, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20Dude, I don't need a degree in psychology to know self harming is a cry for help.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15At the same time, the percentage of celibacy skyrocketed 1420%.
- DeflatorMouse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Many with depression are incapable of contact with family or friends, but even those who do want such contact usually cannot get it because their "family and friends" want nothing to do with a depressed person under any circumstances. You could even theorize, along the same lines as the original argument, that humans are somehow evolutionarily predisposed to shun the depressed. (I personally just think it's bigotry and hatred on the pat of the public at large, but I'd like to see a study on this.)
- Bojango, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Actually I'm pretty sure WoW was meant to be some sort of torture and death machine in South Korea.
- bswopes, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13@Zweben
Article references self-cutting. - trogdor282, on 10/12/2007, -11/+17I wish my lawn was Emo, so it would cut itself.
/bash.org - lordsandwich, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Well that's a depressing concept...
- manova, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Evolutionary psychology has been around since at least the 70-80's. I guess it is newer than the biological, cognitive, and humanistic perspectives of the 50's or behavioral and psychoanalytical perspectives from the early 1900's. Sounds like psychiatry is running about a quarter century behind psychology.
- Bojango, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6He discovered that his client's parents had pressured her to attend the university and major in science, even though her real interest lay in the arts. In the course of therapy, he helped her become more assertive about her goals. When she transferred to another school and changed majors, he says, her depression lifted.
I am a college student and about 60% of the people I know are carrying out their parents' wishes by going to my school and studying what they might be.
This proves that parents need to lighten up and let their children do what they want to. DO NOT try to live your life through your children. Most of all it stresses them out, may cause depression, and it tends to create a bad relationship between you and your children. - br0ck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Rage can't be ruled out because getting angry is advantageous in protecting the tribe, defending the family and hunting. I can't think of any advantage to malice, but as for homosexuality.. I remember reading about a study a few months ago that showed that showed that the conditions that produce homosexual males can be advantageous to the family's reproductive chances as a whole because the female siblings of male homosexuals were much more strongly attracted to men and more likely to reproduce. This more than negated the negative evolutionary effect of the brother not reproducing.
- RickHavoc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Remember, our ancestors didn't live in isolated suburbs 500 miles away from other family members. They pretty much saw each other every day. When someone stopped coming out of their hut, everybody noticed. Then they'd go visit and give them a pep talk. Probably not out of sympathy, but because they needed the person to help hunt and gather.
- rjgutzeit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6*****. You say that like we haven't been living in hunter-gatherer tribes for 99% of our existence. How much human evolution do you think has taken place since our world became "information-laden"? And how exactly does having ADD increase your chances of getting laid and having lots of kids in the modern world, anyway?
- jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7So what you're saying is that it's a perfectly normal psychological theory.
- tdowling, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4jerbaker, contrary to what you seem to believe, there are psychologists out there who do more than psychoanalysis. Or psychotherapy at all for that matter. There are some who have never done a minute of therapy in their lives. Psychologists who study the physical or chemical components of the brain and nervous system are *not* psychiatrists unless they have an M.D. and did a psychiatric residency. There is a lot of overlap with the biological sciences in the research world.
- terrab0t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4This is interesting. I happened to meet a Psychology graduate student from the University of Waterloo on the bus once. She said she is looking into something similar for her thesis. Her theory is that depression is a mechanism for settling long standing disputes within a group. Eventually, one party in the dispute will have to give up and lapse into a more submissive state to end the dispute and let the group move on.
Whatever triggers it (losing a physical confrontation, losing the support of the rest of the group, etc.) depression is what brings that state of submission on. - Triptastic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@Philluminati
Your right depression != sympathy... however, depression != not liking the world either. I was diagnosed with double depression (major depressive disorder superimposed on dysthymic disorder for those too lazy to google) when I was 12. I was not angry at the world, there was nothing about the world I did not like (how could I, being 12... not much to not like) yet I was still melancholy and bed ridden with depression occasionally. I still suffer serious depressive episodes ever couple of months and so far, anti-depressants are ineffective against dysthymia.
Ignorant comments like yours make me wish I could reach through the internet and beat you with an education stick. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@jerbaker: What the hell are you talking about? Your statement is nonsensical. Psychiatric practices have relied heavily on psychological findings since the early 1900's. And in case you didn't realize it.. doctors are not scientists (excepting research doctors). They are practitioners of science. Since psychiatrists use the research of psychologists, psychology is a science (a simplification but true).
- spudnic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"That's all very well and good - until you realise the thousands of people who suffer horribly from depression and who are completely isolated and have no contact with family or friends - mainly because they are incapable of this because of their illness - at which point this person's argument falls to pieces"
That wouldn't have been true when this evolutionary trait (providing it is one) first surfaced. Families living far apart is a very, very recent social change. - JimSartor, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10*Jim Raises the ***** Flag and SALUTES*
I have read that ADD is actually an evolutionary response to our information-laden world . . . however, the idea that depression somehow brings together the tribe or the family unit?! I hate dismissing ideas too quickly, but there is something about this hypothesis which seems a bit shaky. I would be more willing to accept that depression is caused rather by an individuals inability to cope with the evolutionary norms than to say that depression somehow brings together families . . .
Either way, interesting notion, but for now . . . I'm taking a boat ride down denial.
-Jim - Arahka, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Awesome stuff. Very informative.
It's about time psychologists started thinking from the evolutionary perspective. It seems to be giving a lot of new insight into therapies. - andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@meepus: It is a disease, one the person who is affected cannot totally cure in any way whatsoever. What you felt was obviously either a trivial case, or merely the blues and not true depression. How long did it last? What did it feel like?
True depression is normally impossible to "shake off and get over" by yourself. Your argument doesn't even make sense. Why would someone WANT to be in pain, anger, and sadness all the time? Speaking from personal experience, it is not merely a cry for attention. No amount of attention is worth this much pain. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@lemoocow: That is what I thought until I took a history of psychology class. It is a misconception and untrue.
Also, psychologists CAN prescribe some medications. There is, of course, overlap, but they are definitely not just "psychologists with MDs." Psychologists and psychiatrists have different philosophies and approaches that are not always in sync with each other. Basically, psychologists are trained as "scientist-practitioners" -- they have to do original research to get their degree, for instances, and are (or should be) always actively doing research along with their clinical work (if they are a clinical psychologist, that is). Doctors are _not_ scientists, they are only practitioners of science(s). It is a subtle but important difference.
And they _are_ in direct competition with each other because psychiatrists have historically been bitter towards psychologist, seeing them as "butting in" on their territory and having no business treating sick people without medical degrees. Take into account that psychiatry existed before psychology, but was based mostly on trial-and-error medicinal approaches with little evidence to back up their practices. - terrab0t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3His advice to increase social interaction may seem obvious as well, but some people in todays world don't realise that their privileges like having their own car or apartment are leaving them in partial isolation. We naturally work and live beside other humans 24/7. We can do without it, but after extended periods of time without living with other people we see adverse effects.
It shouldn't take a psychologist looking at our tribal roots to figure this out, but for some people it takes an assertive statement like this to tell them they need to change their lifestyle a bit. The advice "You should get out more." truly does hold more weight coming from him. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It seems so obvious, yet generation after generation continues to behave in the same way. In your 30s you think maybe one day everyone will be more enlightened. In your 40s you're confused - you see people still doing stupid crap and ask "Didn't we all learn that 10 or 20 years ago?" But then by the time you hit 50 you realize each generation pretty much has to learn life's lessons anew. This is why there's hardly ever any social progress. But think what a boring world it would be without all that unnecessary drama!
- yukevster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Depression, in my own experience/opinion is nothing more and nothing less than a serious and overwhelming case of self-hate (most of western society suffer from self-hate weather they realize it or not).
In a way then it is a survival mechanism, it forces you to learn self-love, making you more loving within the group I suppose. - Philluminati, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Depression != Sympathy.
It's not an effective design feature at all and enough people jump off buildings to make this a bit too far fetched IMHO.
I think it's the time between learning something you don't like (e.g. this world IS ***** and I will always be pathetic compared to everyone else) and killing yourself. - Rivetgeek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4WoW was created to exploit the socially retarded. And it worked rather well just like everquest before that and D&D before that. There's never a shortage of the socially hopeless willing to spend 5 hours a day and hundreds of dollars a year to feel temporarily cool.
- Locke2053, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Nocturn, you don't know what you're talking about.
Evolutionary Psychology has little to do with genetics. EP has to do with "memes" which are ideas that spread from person to person. EP is used to study self-replicating ideas, such as religions.
What this guy is talking about isn't really EP at all. It's just biology. And the theory he is proposing is that depression causes communities to help an organism (due to the already-established empathetic ability of humans), thereby increasing its fitness.
It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't have anything to do with evolutionary psychology. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"There's increasing evidence that we were never designed for our sedentary, socially isolated, indoor, sleep-deprived, frenzied, poorly nourished lifestyle," he says.
That reminds me of a quote from Office Space.
(from idmb.com)
Peter Gibbons: Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to eight different bosses drone on about about mission statements. - timuel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Why does it sometimes seems like I'm the only one who understands evolution as a series of somewhat random mutations, the beneficial ones being culled through the natural selection process. Why do reputable sources always seem to anthropomorphize the evolutionary process, making it seem as though something is consciously revising genetic makeup? We've largely sidestepped the natural selection process as far as the human race is concerned, and the freakshow is only beginning...
- johnnynack, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Every genetic problem, disorder, or disease has some evolutionary benefit in particular enviroments.
sickle cell anemia allows for malaria protection (but it only works if in heterozygous form) and
Cystic Fibrosis has a certain characteristic that allow for proctection agianst some bacteria, just to name of few of such examples.
Let me just state that this excludes the diseases and disorders that have taken affect within the past 100 years when humans have had drastic enviromental changes leading to longer life. (ie we have seen more and more heart disease, cancer, and diabetes in the past 100 years because we can eat more food, live longer, and are exposed to many different chemicals).
Now, with that said, depression is likely a genetic disorder that, in certain situations, can have a beneficial effect. Though, as the article points out these situations are unknown because of our dynamic society. There are also negitative effects of depression that lead to things like suicide, substance abuse, and self-injury. these can be compared to the negative effects of CF and sickle cell.
Now just as the positive effects of CF and sickle cell were not apparent at first, we finally did figure it out, just as we will with depression. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Meepus: You are a ***** *****. Major Depressive Disorder is a disease with a biological and biochemical basis. Many people with with minor depression are just melancholy due to outside stressors but many patients with MDD have no reason for being depressed except for the disease itself. You're lucky for being so 'strong' (If you were even really diagnosed with MDD instead of being an emo bitch) but don't be a ***** ass about it.
- Locke2053, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1nocturne: I have seen memetics and EP used together frequently... but after further research, I have concluded that we are both kinda-right.
- andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The ONLY way to truly get out and not live on drugs forever, is to learn mindful awareness and start listening to what you are being told by that viscious voice in your head."
Yeah, listen to it when it tells a lot of people with depression to kill themselves. Brilliant idea; why haven't we thought of it sooner?
Also, depression in my experience has never had a voice. It is pure emotion, smothering emotion, compulsion, and the "realization of the """""fact"""""" that you are worthless and that nobody cares about you. If you have voices in your head I think you may need to listen to that doctor you scorn. - cr4ft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@foobermensch
"All you MORONS on here really depress me.
Does that mean I will get your sympathy?"
Why do you troll on every article? - nocturne181, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Locke, evidentally YOU don't know what you're talking about. Evolutionary psychology has everything to do with genetics. If you've read any book by the main proponents of evolutionary psychology, such as Robert Wright or Stephen Pinker, you would have realized this.
I suggest you read both sides of the argument, like books by those stated above and one such as Neo Liberal Genetics by Susan McKinnon.
The very basis of Evolutionary psychology is that the main urge of humans is to prolong and multiply their genes. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2DyDx obvious has never read a biology book. Let me name genetic disorders with known benefits:
Sickle cell trait, thalasemia trait, G6PD Deficiency: Protection against malaria
Cystic Fibrosis: Protection against cholera and diarrheal disease
Tay-Sachs: Possible tuberculosis resistance - johnnynack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Dydx
Please take a genetics or evolution class before insisting that my comment was idiotic.
DNA mutations are very rare. If some rare mutation causes a disadvantage, then the individual would not survive and the mutation would go extinct. however, if the rare mutation had some strange side effect that in certain situations, allowed the individual to survive with better odds then their neighbors, then the gene would be passed on.
don't confuse a DNA mutation that causes a new condition where the person dies or is extremely sick with a gene that has mutated along time ago and is still present as a result of selection(such as the gene for sickle cell, CF and likely the gene(s) that infer depression)
the genes for CF and sickle cell anemia have been passed on from generation to generation because they have some benefit. if not, the gene with these mutations that causes the particular phenotype(trait) would be so incredibly rare that we wouldn't even consider them. as i said earlier, the gene with the mutation would likely go extinct. The key word is rare. depression is not rare.
I should point out that it is more so the heterozygous form that is desired since homozygous recessive is usually deadly and homozygous dominant lacks the abnormal advantage. this is called Balanced Polymorphism
here are more examples
albinism-
allergies-
tay-sachs- Tuberculin suppression
PKU can protect against a toxic fungi
look at over weight people- when food is scares, the genes that make people fat are advantageous since they can store food better
(its just now since food is not scarce, we store too much food)
name another genetic disorder/condition and we'll see if the mutant allele (form of the gene) has a possible benefit.
(remember as a said before, heart disease, diabetes, and cancer are kinda new, so evolution has not had much of a chance to weed the genes out that cause these conditions) - johnnynack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2when you say harmful or beneficial you need to be specific for an organism in a particular enviroment.
how can an allele be "largely" harmful if it causes increased survival for an organism??
harmful or beneficial descriptions are relative to an environment, or more specifically fitness in that environment.
DyDx
"Just because CF is still around doesn't mean it therefore must be good in some cases"
yes, it is proven that people with CF have an increased resistance to cholera. in a certain situation where cholera is rampent, it would be a clear advantage to have the mutant CF allele.
the Progeria mutation is a new mutation arising in the gamete. it has nothing to do with genes passed on from generation to generation. as in Progeria is not heritable.
got anymore dydx? - OwdenBowden, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm depressed reading all of this...
- Locke2053, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The best choice for parents is to teach their children the cold-hard-facts of economics from an early age. Help them learn the difference between a hobby and a profession. That way, more kids will choose to study a marketable career instead of "following their dreams" into poverty.
We can't all be artists, basketball players, or bikini inspectors. Teach your children WHY this is the case. Don't just force them to major in something economically valuable. -
Show 51 - 95 of 95 discussions
The Digg Toolbar for Firefox lets you Digg, submit content, and keep track of Digg even when you're not on the Digg site. Download the official 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is