What is Digg?67 Comments
- AdamWeeden, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"That's not how poker works; the house doesn't make money."
You have obviously never played for money online or in a casino. Any any given hand the house takes what is called a "rake." For a typical hand this will be at least a few dollars, but could could be much more if you're playing high stakes (as rake is typically a percentage).
"Even if everyone makes the right move, someone WILL win money on the hand."
On any given hand yes, but over the long term since cards are random, each will have an opportunity to play the best hand equally, and thus will split the money. - vodkamattvt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7If everyone is using the same bot, the house wins. If everyone in poker makes the "right" move, then no one makes any money long term, the house takes all the money in the rake, and everyone basically loses.
So why do the online casinos care? Because everyone using bots decreases the amount of players .. they have to rely on the lure that you *can* make money. - notkevinrose, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6All I am going to say is....
Friends
Poker Table
Beer
Beer..
and Beer - rhyno2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Online poker is not "rigged". You certainly can make money if you have the skills. While I haven't brought in $25k, I have made enough to pay for my 2-week honeymoon in Hawaii, and am currently starting my firstborn's college fund. You _can_ win, and do so fairly consistently (at the lower limits: $100-200 NL, $20-50 SnGs, etc.) -- only one losing month in the last 2 years. And I consider myself nothing more than an "enthusiast", let alone a "pro". Read: I'm nothing special.
The keys are:
1) practice - get involved in a regular home game, e.g.
2) read a lot - Theory of Poker, Harrington on Holdem, Super System, etc.
3) practice some more - get one of the better training programs like Wilson Turbo Texas Holdem
4) if you're worried about bots, don't play limit poker. Play set buyin No-Limit cash games. Play tournaments. Sit'N'Gos. Heads Up...
And let's hope the bot information & availability stays under the radar for a while longer. If the fish get slaughtered by "players" who make no mistakes, they won't continue to bite.
p.s. Kudos for a reasonably informative, on-topic Digg thread - serpentor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Good points, online poker is so full of collusion and bots that any "fair" player is at an automatic disadvantage. I have friends who collude, and I've seen pics of guys who have rooms full of computers all playing the same table. You think the little guy has no chance in the stock market, at least there are laws governing fraud there. Play real poker with friends and at casinos, disregard any stories of people living off of online poker. Sure it can be done, but join a collusion team or buy a good bot and run it on multiple IPs/accounts.
- breakneckridge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There are corrupt people involved in Gambling?!? My word! Innocence is shattered!
- thegrinder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here is a follow up article when they "put the poker bots to the test"
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money-savers/article.html?in_article_id=405335&in_page_id=5 - Hypersapien, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2So what if everyone in the game is using the same bot?
- iakie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Oh GOD. This is LAME. For those who are interested, check out university of Alberta's game group, which produce the BEST poker AI on earth. Yet, even researchers there agree, it's quite impossible to use AI to make money. Especially with the rise of anti-bot player/bot out there, your money grabbing bot can quickly turn into money losing bot.
- AdamWeeden, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"that's why you only play heads-up matches. you against them..."
That protects against collusion, but are you are most people better players than bots? A better strategy is to play no limit. Since most of these bots go by pot odds, no limit play can (except for the more sophisticated ones) throw off their "balance". - AdamWeeden, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"anybody here ever played poker? how can a bot know what the best move is if people are bluffing? am i the only one that doesnt think this will work?"
It mainly works in limit games. Say bot gets a hand where it gets a 5% chance of having the best hand. If the pot is 25$, and it only takes 1$ to call, the bot will call. It's called "pot odds." Essentially it means that if they play that same hand 20 times They will lose 19 out of 20 times, but they'll win 25$ that one time vs. the 19 times they lost 1$. Basically as long as the following formula is true the bot will call:
bet you have to call < ((chance of winning) * (pot size))
More sophisticated bots may incorporate behavior analysis, but that formula is what drives your basic poker bot. - uptown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just curious how a 2nd PC can "watch" the 1st PCs screen without leaving a footprint on the 1st PC's process list. I'd think even some type of remote-desktop monitor would throw up a flag if they're monitoring running processes.
What's even more worrysome is that it seems everybody's perfectly willing to let PartyPoker snoop through their system while they play. Makes you wonder whether they've adopted Sony's $sys$ hiding mechanism. - bcarlzson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1winholdem and other bots programs are actually illegal on a lot of pokersites and if you are caught using them your account is locked and cancelled.
the sites use sniffers to see what else your running. then they cross check with others at your table, then analyze everything. The people who worry about collusion online should be more worried about what the rake of the house site is and playing where there are the weakest players and the lowest rake, not if 2 players at their table are using a bot program.
and only 4% of online players actually make money. If you are serious about playing the best way to make money is sign up for a rakeback program. - conedude13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sounds like a nice way to make a couple extra bucks. But is it worth the time to get the bot started? Or are there premade bots out there that are ready to go "out of the box?" More information is needed, but it would be cool to actually win money instead of playing for points on pogo.com. :P
- dcjake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11. This is old stuff, even to be covered in mainstream publications.
2. Poker bots are better than poor and most mediocre players. Good players still beat bots, but a bunch of bots aren't what you want sitting at your table, since they're less profitable (against) opponents that bad and mediocre players.
3. Collusion among players is a bigger risk
4. Online sites are doing everything possible to make bot use tougher, since it frightens away players. Bots also tend to be tighter, which makes for smaller pots, which makes for smaller rakes for the house per hand.
5. No limit and tournament play punishes bots. Ring limit games are where they do their bes.t - Shadowsnake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Kevin mitnic talk of this in one of his books..
- Mininday, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Maybe this thread will deter you:
http://www.homepokergames.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=2 - serpentor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"your money grabbing bot can quickly turn into money losing bot." Except the bots that run in collusion with each other. A singular bot will help a player not make the wrong move, but the big money in online poker is in collusion, plain and simple.
- astyler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you fool me once..
you fool me youre not
gonna fool me again - littlecharva, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What a bunch of wankers. Spoiling the game for real poker players.
- Crazyguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I need one of these.
- dnthomps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0All I am going to say is....
Friends
Google Talk
Party Poker
Hint: (The more Friends the better. Keep people in a rotation. Party poker will notice the multiple IPs sitting at a table after a while... Especially if they are all local) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Regarding the comment:
" Sure it can be done, but join a collusion team or buy a good bot and run it on multiple IPs/accounts."
What about using Tor and packet capturing eg. Torifying the application:
http://tor.eff.org/ - Googled, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OH lol were can I get me one of these :D
- pokerpundit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Bots aren't the real threat.
Teams are.
It is pathetically easy for teams of players to join smaller tournaments and split the prizes amongst themselves.
More: http:\pokerpundit.blogspot.com
If you are playing ring poker online, you're are definitely losing money.
Tournament play is easier and less risky (becuase of the time you have to put into it). - imtigger2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ptknight... great idea! I could work with a high-rez cam.
BTW, I never play poker online, too much crap like this. I LOVE playing the casinos online tho', I've been using intercasino.com for YEARS now and love 'em. The 1st one out there, and therefore the oldest and most established.
I highly recommend it for anyone considering real-money bets online. No poker, but nice blackjack, crap, reels, video poker, bonuses, etc.. I recently won $4200 in Let it Ride (a single, $25 bet!) and they paid me pretty fast. I use direct debit cause the credits go right into my bank account and I don't have to deal with foreign checks.
... and no, I don't work for them. Just passing on a good reference for them tho'. :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0for those saying this kills the game, yes it definitely does. However, lets weigh in your options...
a.) Make money using your own skill.
b.) Make lots of money using a bot (which new ones will always be made to defeat any anti-cheat made, just look at FPS's for example).
c.) Lose lots of money because you are novice and make too dramatic of calls. - myradiohead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0that's why you only play heads-up matches. you against them...
- cheifchuck0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1dont digg it, then I cant use a robot anymore. damn you! we need to stifle this *****, not broadcast it.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Right on antikevin. Online poker is hardly poker at all -- it's either a mathematical exercise or a losing one. It's only right that hackers should own the cybergame and leave the art to human players in a human setting -- and what's more human than beer?
- orangetiki, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0smart guy
- SpacemanSpiff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Interesting/informative read. Makes me glad I never got into it.
- molotov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"and only 4% of online players actually make money."
Then me and my 7 friends who are all up online must be really good. I'd like to know where you got your stat from. - pigsbladder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Just about everything on the internet ends up being exploited it seems.
- dusingaz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0anyone want to point me in the direction of one of these bots?
- joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"if you're a competent player, it shouldn't matter if you're playing against a bot right? "
Right. The problem is that bots will slowly get rid of all the incompetant players, which both bots and competent players like. - ebenthurston, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0this is one of the best comments threads i've seen on digg.
if you're a competent player, it shouldn't matter if you're playing against a bot right? a bot is just going to make the statistically correct play every time. a good player should be doing the same thing. and if you have the nuts, well, then you have the nuts. collusion is a bigger problem, but again, if you have the nuts... - jtown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I played a small tournament that had a couple of obvious bots back before this stuff made the news. They weren't very sophisticated but they did make the final 3 spots with me. At that point, I started jamming the pot. The bots would only call if they had monsters but, even then, they could be pushed off if the flop had straight or flush cards.
It was like playing ultra-turbo speed poker. As annoying as it was to go against bots, it was a bit of a rush to play so fast. - MattZed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0pretty sweet, will br forwarding this to my brother who plays online non stop.
- 3Den, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0clazor.. just curious, but in what way is pp rigged?
- bentkarnesYES, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Absolute Poker seems to have a large 'newbie' user base. More often than not it seems the hands dealt aren't exactly 'random'. The people there usually blab their mouth off and sware at you non stop so its good to know you not playing a bot.
When people learn a way to influence the hands and the community cards, then I'll be scared - penguindude15, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Digg it, but there must be something out there that makes this illegal.
- volatileacid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0good point Vuzman
- vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0BTW, bots have to be configured in order to earn, and rule of thumb is that if you're not a good poker player, you won't be good at configuring the bot either ;)
- elev8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wasn't this in Wired magazine a few months ago?
- hander, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The absurd level of importance awarded to this article by thisismoney.co.uk is somewhat weakened by the following:
"This story first appeared in the Mail on Sunday's brilliant new magazine, Night & Day Live."
As any fule kno, this newspaper and its tatty magazine are the leading voice of reactionary nonsense in the UK. - 4815162342, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0old news... no digg. oh by the way, who here as made over $25k playing poker online? oh just me? ok...
- saiz66, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0anybody here ever played poker? how can a bot know what the best move is if people are bluffing? am i the only one that doesnt think this will work?
- vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A WORD OF WARNING!
Some (most) of the clients you use to play poker *can and do* search your computer for poker bots or evidence that you somehow might be "cheating".
The poker servers are using software algorithms to identify bots based on playing patterns, time logged on, etc. and to identify players playing on the same tables often, logging in from same IP (because of NAT'ing), etc. to identify colluders. They also have players on the staff to identify and expose colluders and bots.
If the casinos think you are cheating (the definition of cheating is defined by them!), they *will* close your account and keep the money in it. This has happened to several people I know and there's nothing you can do about it because you agreed to it when you installed the client and/or signed up.
In the long run, only real players will make money and bots and colluders will make money for the casinos. -
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