What is Digg?119 Comments
- Andy.D, on 10/12/2007, -9/+39I wouldn't say the Zune comes out well in the review, considering a 7/10 is 70%, aka a C-. I think it's hilarious that so many people hate the Zune already that they are upset that the review wasn't negative enough. Sucks to be Microsoft!
It was a very fair review, and I don't think anyone is going to mistake a 7 for a good score. - JeremyBanks, on 10/12/2007, -18/+40Their review was fair, since every single page had a ton of bad stuff to say about the Zune. ;-)
My point is that giving it a 7 after all of that seems a little... unfitting. All of the comments on Ars seem to agree too. - steelphantom, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27"When that three-inch screen burst to life, I thought to myself, "Self, you have got to give credit to Microsoft for a great out-of-box experience."
And that's when it crashed." - johnhummel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18You mean like the Microsoft "Plays for sure" music which was going to guarantee that any music I bought with the Plays For Sure label would be playable on a Microsoft supported device?
Well, until Microsoft make their own store and player, that is.
Maybe *that* is the DRM music they are speaking of. - i64X, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17I've got an idea - just don't buy DRM'ed music. It's that simple. The player might support Zune DRM, but it's not locked to only playing Zune DRM files - just like the iPod isn't locked to JUST playing iTunes files. You can play non DRM'ed straight MP3 on either one.
Buy the CD and rip it to MP3 instead of buying from some crappy online store that locks its music to one device. Zune store does it, iTunes does it too. MS isn't doing anything here that Apple hasn't already done - locked users in with ***** DRM. When Apple does it it's ok though, for some reason.
Seriously - I've owned 3 iPods, and now own a Zune. I think I've once or twice purchased music from a DRM based store and it's always come back to bite me in the ass. Get out, get some fresh air, drive down to Best Buy, and buy a CD. You'll get better quality, a full quality uncompressed backup, no DRM, and some cool album art to boot. - mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15And that goes for "series of tubes", "frickin' lasers", "FTW", and "In Soviet Russia..." jokes too. Haven't been funny in a long, long time.
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -12/+24Whew! Finally, a Zune review flag564 and estvir can feel good about! Sorta.
I love the fact that for flag, any negative Zune review is outrageously biased and unfair, while any positive review is completely fair and objective. Say anything you want about the Zune, so long as it's full of adulation! Hard to believe this is the guy that rants about everyone else being "fanboys."
You'd be a great journalist in North Korea, flag. - estvir, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16Why does it suck to be Microsoft ? There has been people rambling on about the doom of Microsoft for what, ~15 years ? I'm sure all the comments on Digg went straight to their heart. Really.
Has anyone seen The Benchwarmers ? Well, you know the seen where they're throwing around the name insults and one of the 'bad guys' says "Gus Bus" and then Gus replies with "Oh, that was a brutal comeback. Come on guys, let's go. I don't think I can ever get over that one. Whew!" (Quote from IMDB).
That was quite a horrible analogy/story but I'm sure the most dense hater will have somewhat of an idea of what I'm trying to get across.
Anyway, a pretty decent article. Ars usually has quality content especially when compared to sensationalist bandwith-mongering whores like Engadget. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11The problem is the fanboy behavior of "if it's not what I like, it automatically sucks". It's childish and annoying.
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15"Take note of how a good review is welcome with open arms even if it does have a lot of critical points about the Zune, just as long as they're warranted and not made up."
Oh please. Reviews have been almost universally negative, and despite flag's delusions, the negative reviews aren't all coming from pro-Apple blogs. Yet the Zune Troops are quick to decry any review that doesn't put a positive spin on the device, even from respected journalists and publications.
"Maybe now you'll have some understanding for why people are against the moronic level of anti-Zune propaganda on here."
Frankly, I couldn't care less about the Zune. Want one? Buy one! Buy two! Doesn't hurt my feelings a bit. What's funny is those who have been dishing out hardcore anti-Apple propaganda on Digg since its inception are suddenly outraged to see it happening to a company they happen to support (Microsoft). "iPod is a closed system!" "You can't replace the battery!" "The iPod battery life sucks" "The iPod is overpriced!" All criticisms that are suddenly, conveniently overlooked when it comes to the Zune, right?
To hear flag564 complain about FUD goes so far beyond hypocrisy to make it unrecognizable. As I said before, estvir, you're a consistent Microsoft apologist and that's fine. But I wouldn't hitch your wagon to flag564 - he's the spokesperson Microsoft never asked for (and doesn't want). - halik, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Amazing comments here... yet another apple fanboi circle jerk.
In any case, I'd say the Zune is is 99% there hardware wise, but the Microsoftness of it kills it. The crazy DRM, useless wifi and no usb-drive support is an absolute deal breaker; especially in the DRM/wifi case, it turns all the fun features to nothing more than just gimmicks. Odds are if you can only listen to a song 3x, you won't even both sending it to people.
If I was apple, though, I'd watch the underground development for Zune like a hawk. If microsoft was any smart, they'll make the firmware really easy to update/hack - giving you all the features without all of liability. As soon as someone strips the DRM crap off it and makes the usb drive/wifi usable, I'll get one. - mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14I also agree that the Zune *doesn't* come out well in that fair review. The hardware is a re-skinned Toshiba Gigabeat anyway and they did a great job with the look and feel, but the actually usability of the product, especially the wireless and the Zune Marketplace, was a typical collossally-bungled Microsoft FUBAR that is more concerned with their business model than what is most useful or convenient for the actual consumer.
- i64X, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16My first MP3 player was a 20GB iPod (3g). I loved it. It was easy to use and stable (most of the time) and just worked. When the Color iPods came out I had to have one. I sold my 20GB 3g and got a 60GB color iPod. Shortly after the 5G "video" iPods came out and I saw that they finally started coming in black - I had to have one. Once again another upgrade - sold the 60GB color and got a 5G video.
I've been using the 5G video DAILY for a little over a year. I haven't had too many problems, but the lack of customizability always got to me. I tried running Linux on it but the interface kinda sucked and was buggy, so I went back to Apple's interface. I don't buy DRM'ed music, but the few run ins with iTunes I had weren't bad - aside from the fact that I lost my music a couple times (once the fault of iTunes - which with the upgrade to 7 deleted my entire iPod for some reason) and Apple wouldn't let me download it again. After that I vowed never to buy DRM'ed music again.
Yesterday I picked up a Zune because Target had them marked wrong and were including $25 gift certificates with them - so I ended up walking out the door with one for $175 if you count the value of the gift card. I figured why not - if it was as bad as everyone says it was I'd sell it and keep my iPod. After about 3 hours with the Zune, I sold my iPod to a local buddy to give to his wife.
I haven't had any of the bad experiences that people complain about. If something is a super huge annoyance, it'll be fixed with firmware - just like any other "wired" device out there now. Wifi isn't what everyone was expecting? Who cares. The iPod doesn't even have it. Did anyone really expect that MS would give us little portable piracy machines? I'd like that just as much as the next guy but come on - you know as well as I do that if they did that they'd be sued by every record company and their mothers.
I don't care what the bad reviews say - I love my Zune. I love the customizability. I love the huge screen. I love the nice menus and the ease of navigation. I love the fact that when I watch video the unit isn't taxed to 100% CPU power with a constantly clicking hard drive like the 5G iPod, which would constantly skip, lock up, and un-sync the audio with the video on me if the movie I was watching was longer than about 20 minutes. I love the fact that my BLACK Zune came with a matching sync cable and headphones (black iPod, white headphones/USB... WTF). I think MS has done a good job with the Zune. My 2 cents.
I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the people on Digg and other sites that are bitching about how crappy the Zune are haven't even picked up and used one, or probably ever even seen them in real life. This coming from a person who has upgraded his iPod with every new iteration and previously thought that he'd never use a different kind of MP3 player again. Help exterminate the iLemmings... try it out for yourself before you complain. - i64X, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Read the article again - it says that the software can't rip CDs in VBR. The Zune can play them without transcoding. I just looked it up. I figured after his comment that he was right and the Zune couldn't play VBR MP3s so mine must have transcoded them. He was wrong and so was I. I just picked up my Zune and all of the VBR files I transferred to it last night are still VBR on the unit.
- i64X, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I bought an iPod video when they came out - and Apple wasn't offering video downloads either for like the first 6 months that the thing was out. Lame
- IEatHamburgers, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10If Apple doesn't change their ways here and make the iPod interface customizable or at least less plain I'm going to be pissed. Actually, if they do I'll be pissed because I'll have to buy another iPod. So I'm basically pissed.
Maybe in a firmware update... - d722002, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Well, despite the bugs and minor problems, I think that the positive parts of this article have influenced me to do one thing: Buy a Zune.
- QueenOfSwords, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I like how solid the Zune looks. It looks like it might survive more abuse than an iPod. I wish the end-user experience was a bit better though (give it six months of incremental patches and it might be a contender), and the reason for this is to keep Apple on their toes.
Redownloadable songs? *Cough*
A bigger, brighter screen? *Cough*
An updated, slick UI using the nice installed color LCD? *Cough*
The color/video iPods to me at the moment feel a bit like when Palm PDAs first got color. It's a bit of a hack, and the new tech isn't interesting enough to upgrade. - RuffRidr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@ryansmith
Well you know what they say: "A fool and his money are soon parted." - ThirdPrize, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Well, it make me chuckle. What doesn't make me chuckle is that the disk on my 80Gb 5.5th Gen iPoo corrupted after a month and it been "in the shop" for the last two weeks.
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I think we all can come away with a lesson: Don't buy DRMed music, and if you go with digital, stick with mp3.
Every player supports it, and though a CD may cost a little bit more, it entails more freedom than you could possibly imagine. It gives you the freedom to switch players without losing your music, and that to me is worth the extra dollar or two. - Dradis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The Zune actually sounds better than I thought it was going to be, but the thing that worries me is what Ars brought up: If Apple introduces WiFi into their upcoming iPods, Microsoft's ace-in-the-hole is blown, and they're totally screwed. I think I'll wait another year to see if the Zune matures into something great.
One thing is for sure, Microsoft's introduction into the iPod's realm will cause Apple to innovate to try and stay ahead of the curve.. something I feel as though they've started to become lax on, as indicated by the latest generations of iPods. - eddieroger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Thanks for bringing the iPod into this little thread of argument. No one said the iPod could, but Apple never went out and promised that any MS supported device would be able to play PlaysForSure, then makes their OWN device that doesn't.
- ThirdPrize, on 10/12/2007, -13/+18As they say, sure makes the iPoos menu look like a DOS prompt. Whats the point of a nice colour screen if its all black& white and text based.
What has apple got against people changing the colours of their windows/menus? - eddieroger, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Desperation makes you laugh? While we're sharing, I enjoy seeing you and flag going off on your two-man Apple-fanboy-slay-a-thon. You two should meet up for tea.
Or maybe someone just has two accounts. Then its tea for one. - i64X, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Your seemingly obvious digg on my idea comes from what you read on a review site and not personal experience.
I synced my Zune yesterday with a ton of VBR MP3s that it re-encoded to the bitrate that I specified in the options without a problem. Everything was done for me so it took no additional work on my part at all.
Sorry, you lose. - zeeeej, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7ArsTechnica's review summary:
The good:
* Great interface
* Elegant design
* FM radio support
* Well-implemented ecosystem
* Gorgeous display
* Zune Marketplace
* Xbox 360 support
The bad:
* No variable bit rate encoding support in the Zune software
* The social isn't quite here yet—WiFi functionality is lacking
* Software bugs and sync problems
* Can't import music from other music services
* Compression artifacts in album art
The ugly:
* The realization that the Zune can't play any of the DRMed music you've purchased until now - halik, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11"First off, no one is going to throw away their iPod to purchase a Zune. "
Scroll down to the post by i64X and realize you just got OWNED - D4r7h3v1l, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Not to mention:
1. *something leading up to the story*
2. *what the story is about*
3. ??????????
4. Profit! - whisperedlie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5reminder: Apple and Microsoft both use DRM. If you don't want DRM, don't purchase DRM'ed music. Both players will let you play non-DRM content to your heart's content.
- 350Zed, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Being an anti-fanboy is just as bad as being a fanboy. Comment on the article or don't comment at all.
Now back to the topic at hand, I think the review is fair. MS seems to have released this product with a subset of its full potential (e.g., direct purchase of songs via WiFi), leaving them for room to expand the product with future "enhancements"--which means they will continue to get press (and therefore additional promotional opportunity) throughout the lifecycle of the current model version.
What kills it for me is the overly-restrictive DRM. I'm sick and tired of MS trying to control my behaviour to appease their licensing partners. If I want to take a song and move it somewhere else (it's called a *BACKUP*, Mr. Gates) I should be able to. I paid for it, so I deserve to use it when/where/how I please, as long as I'm not illegally distributing it. - All4not, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Who really thought Zune version 1.0 would be something special? Microsoft's first version of anything sucks. I'll wait to buy an expensive media player and then see how they are doing around version 3.
I'd rather spend the cash on good earphones for sound quality than have a ton of functionality. - sincewednesday, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The article is incorrect about Wi-Fi sharing: "Any song can be shared with any other Zune user, but it expires after three plays or three days, whichever comes first." SOME SONGS CANNOT BE SHARED AT ALL.
From Fortune, which surely is not an Apple fanboi site:
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/fortune/zune/5.html
"Even though I purchased music from the Zune Marketplace, and even though I was willing to abide by the DRM's restriction of allowing three plays of a shared song within three days, half the songs I tried to send wirelessly were rejected because, according to the Zune display, I lacked the rights to share those songs. Asked about this, a Microsoft spokesperson said DRM is complicated and that not all artists and labels adhere to the three days and three plays guidelines. Basically, you don't know what the rights are unless you right-click to check every song." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It's possible Microsoft did not allow retransmission because with two Zune's you could potentially side-step the 3-play limit. That is, copy the track to Z1, and re-transmission to Z2. After you've played the track 3 times on Z1, delete it and transfer it back from Z2. This behaviour could easily be prevented by maintaining a hash of each 'play-limited' track, and a hash file of a thousands tracks is tiny memory wise. Additionally, who could be bothered wasting so much time to save a few bucks?
Great article, quality as always from Ars. - whisperedlie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I got my Zune yesterday after being an iPod owner for 3 years. I am really impressed and happy with my purchase. It has a natural, simple, yet sexy and elegant interface. The Zune software is not drastically different than iTunes, and actually brings some nice features to the table (I like the playlist, burn, and sync sidebards that you can switch effortlessly between while managing your library).
Here are the things that aren't so pleasant:
Device:
- The four-way buttons could use a little better construction. Functionally, they are fine but they don't seem particularly solid. Also, I wish there was some sort of texture on each of the four pressure points so I could locate them by touch easier
- The WiFi sharing experience is REALLY smooth and easy (my roommate bought one at the same time as me)... which makes it such a disappointment that it is so restricted. I understand why thy did what they did, but it is such a bummer
- While the Zune charges fast, the battery life is poorer than expected. Then again, so was my iPod's. Fortunately for me, the places I use my music player the most I have it plugged in.
The Software:
- For the love of god, why can I not drag and drop new music into my library via the software? I really like that it monitors folders and adds automatically, because that is how I usually would like it to work, but when I get something new and want to add it right away it seems really clunky and annoying. Give me drag and drop.
- Downloading album art automatically takes FOR EVER, and seems not to have art for a lot of albums in comparison to iTunes
- There is no right click and Download Album Art option that I can find. Having to look up and paste in the art myself sucks
- Pasting album art takes excessively long to complete
- The artist/album views in Zune are really nice, but sometimes it is easy to mess up the ID3 tags in Zune and songs in the same album are visually represented as two different albums. Maybe it is something I am doing.
- Why can I not rate Photos or add keywords? - halik, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Just an addendum on the music store... Microsoft's little pyramid scheme is just unacceptable. (They did roll out the point system and pricing just for Zune right?) The dirty marketing would induce me not to buy crap from them at all.
That being said, I've never bought any music off any online store ($1 for a song DRMd and encoded with a ***** bit rate... no thanks apple) and I can't see myself doing it anytime in the future either. - Slovenian6474, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Wikipedia quote
""Fanboys" remain loyal to their particular obsession, disregarding any factors that differ from their point of view. They are also typically hateful to the opposing brand or competition of their obsession regardless of its merits or achievements."
The reason most people hate fanboys (either side) is because of the hate towards the opposing brand, not because they have an opinion. When they state their opinion as fact and call other people's opinions false, that's what annoys me. Fanboys don't realize that people have different lifestyles, needs, and wants than their own. - stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8You know, it's quite interesting reading all these comments. Everyone is obsessed with calling eachother fanboys. Well, you know what? Most people who can actually think tend to have opinions. These opinions are what make life interesting. It seems like you all are crucifying anyone who actually says anything like "I like this, I hate that". What the heck do you want? A large mass of uninteresting, average people who like nothing? Sorry, but I like being able to choose something as being better than something else. Call me an Apple fanboy or whatever, but I've done my own trade study, found that the iPod is what I want, so of course it's going to be what I support. Stop trying to pull us all down into your sad world of mediocrity. In the real world, some things are actually better than other things, and while it may be my opinion, it's still a valid choice.
- noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9@ Naio, hmm, maybe you're being dugg down because you comment didn't really add anything to the discussion. You were just trying to be cool by pointing out that someone likes the colour and some old jokes are dead.
@ Flag Apple users fear the Zune? Oh yes, we're terrified. Especially since there hasn't been one outright positive review yet. Yep I can see the iPod's fall now.
Please both of you cut the fanboyisms. While it is very possible that the Zune will end up with a decent following it is ignorant to look at where the iPod is now and assume that the Zune will come close any time soon. They have a lot of problems to fix and if you want to piss and moan about how those problems are imagined by legions of Apple tattooed retards who don't know anything about technology, be my guest.
And, while you seem to be happy about this review it seems you need to read it soem more.
- It crashed, out of the box.
- The packaging is designed based on iPod packaging.
- The player is designed based on the iPod design.
- The marketing is based on Apple marketing.
If Apple is so horrible with everything they do, why did the Zune group go to such great lengths to emulate them? - belvedere, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5So unbelievable. This really could have been a serious product if Microsoft had not crippled their WiFi and integrated themselves with their PlayForSure market. The hardware looks great (yeah, a little bigger than iPod, but still looks very well made). But, as a current iPod owner looking to upgrade at some point, I have two DRM options I'm faced with. Either a) iTunes-style or b) subscription style. While I respect that Microsoft is trying to copy the success of the iPod, the new availability of affordable subscription services with lots of music (read: Yahoo at $5-10 per month, not $15 per month of Zune) is begging a quality, stylish player. I already have a great iTunes-style DRM'd music player, the iPod. I don't need a new one of those. What I do need is something great that will integrate into my Yahoo music unlimited subscription.
- smpdigital, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Although I think competition is heathy and further rivalry would only benefit consumers, I've found the article to be poor for two very important reasons:
-If the most important thing of a mp3 player is playing mp3s files, the zune failed on syncing those mp3s and yet get a "good" rate of 7? come on, then on that same scale even a Dell DJ should get a 15.
-6 out of the 5 pictures from the article compare a 30GB Zune with a fat 60GB iPod highlighting size differences, that's just pathetic. - stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -15/+17> "sure makes the iPoos menu look like a DOS prompt"
Oh, I see what you did there. You replaced a 'd' with an 'o' to make a reference to fecal matter. That's hilarious! - i64X, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3>> For the love of god, why can I not drag and drop new music into my library via the software?
Funny, mine lets me. Try to turn automatic syncing off. - mentat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Uhh, I don't mean to sound rude, but a "ya think?" comment is perfect here.
The hashing of a library sounds a LITTLE excessive, not because of the amount of space it consumes, but because of the amount of time and power it would take to hash your library. Especially if it had to compare hashes on the spot. - estvir, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11@Quix
Take note of how a good review is welcome with open arms even if it does have a lot of critical points about the Zune, just as long as they're warranted and not made up.
The problem is, most of the things on here is just silly rubbish. For example, the story about how sales where lackluster which was based on a visit to ~4 stores, a single review which is overly negative and just plain stupid is given more power than a large number of 'good' reviews from notable sites like Wired, CNet, Gizmodo and other sites.. I could go on for awhile pointing out the problems with it.
Hopefully this story will make you realise that certain people aren't against criticism for the Zune, just as long as it's decent, like this article. Maybe now you'll have some understanding for why people are against the moronic level of anti-Zune propaganda on here. - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Ultimately, all the reviews and counter-reviews are just bluster. The sales numbers will tell all.
Let's see when I actually run across someone USING a Zune. - collywolly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Secondly, no one is going to want to have to re-buy the hundreds of dollars they've spent on music and video, especially not without the possibility of even buying their videos back"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5350258.stm
Sounds more like $20 worth to me. DRMed music is for suckers anyway. - ryansmith18, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I would imagine by your comment that you stopped reading after that point :-/ Dugg down.
- macslut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually there's another way of checking if the music can be shared. Here's a quick guide:
You can not share the music if you own it yourself. This means if you literally made the music yourself as a indie, you can not share it using the Zune.
You can not share any free audio content. The podcasts I produce can not be shared, even though I want them to be spread as much as possible. Zune doesn't really support podcasts anyway.
You can not share music that did not come from the Zune store.
No sharing of music ripped from CDs that you own.
And finally, and most importantly, no sharing of music that comes from major labels that weren't paid $1 for every unit i.e., Universal.
Other than that, squirt away! (if you can find somebody and don't mind going through the whole negotiation process, including turning wifi on, because it should be off under normal use to get anything near the advertised battery life). -
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