What is Digg?498 Comments
- AttroPheed, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21Without religion we'd all be forced to accept responsiblity for our actions and admit that our short life on this planet is all we have before we return to oblivion. I'm not sure Americans are ready for that quite yet.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+22"People who are Catholic do not do these things."
Actually, when you look at the stats relating to teenage pregnancy, you find that teens who are taught abstinence, in accordance with the church's beliefs, rather than sex education, teen pregnancy goes up. When students complete abstinence classes, they sign an abstinence vow, and a very high percentage of those teens break those vows before they are 18. Without any sex education, they are more likely to have sex without any form of protection (especially given the church's standpoint on contraceptives) and thus, the teenage pregnancy rates go up.
As an atheist, I tend to agree with the arguements regarding the negatives of religion (especially the fundamentalism found often in this country), but at the same time, as an advocate of free expression, I don't think we have the right to cut it out entirely...I do, on the other hand, think it needs to be entirely stripped from our government, as we inch closer to theocracy...that's where it really ***** things up. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16good luck getting people to give that up, especially when some people would rather give up their life for their religion.
- fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16Improve critical thinking skills. Attempt to eradicate gullibility. Teach how science is actually supposed to work. Demonstrate that it is OK to not try to provide exact answers for questions for which we have no data. Those are concrete steps that can help.
Next, it is important to distinguish between keeping the right to think freely separate from a politically correct and badly misguided push to "respect" what others think no matter what it is.
We know, in our hearts, that this is wrong. We don't respect Nazis, for instance. We extend to everyone the right to think whatever, and if we're smart, we let them spout off all they want in any forum they can legitimately obtain, because it is better to see such a danger and be able to discuss among yourselves than it is to let it lie smoldering in secret, to erupt in frustration and without warning.
So it is with religion. Religion should never, ever be squashed by force. Nor should it be given respect simply because it is "someone's view" — you wouldn't respect a Nazi viewpoint, just because you see it is someone's view, would you? If we can unlearn the politically correct behavior that we have wrongly been taught to conform to, we may be able to make a stronger start on eroding the false credibility religion claims in society.
Argue a bit. The next time someone presumes to say "God works in mysterious ways" in response to a tragedy, tell them you'd appreciate it if they'd not trivialize your loss. And so on. A few minutes spent thinking about how to respond in advance will go a long way towards making religion actually stand on its own merits. Which are few. You don't have to suck up to these people. You have precisely as much right to assert that the world is a place of materials and natural forces as they do to assert that the world is the experimental playground of a god or gods. - cazabam, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Unfortunately, these self-proclaimed smart people are also arrogant and antagonistic. This entire article is just an attempt to start a flame war. There are religious nut-cases out there, and there are peaceful, intelligent religious people out their. In the same way, there are scientific nut-cases out there, and peaceful intelligent scientific people. There are even peaceful, intelligent, religious, scientific people. These people are generally the quietest, which is why they're not often heard on the 'net, but they take each new scientific proof as a wonder to the divine complexity they live in.
In short, not everybody is a zealot. Even though this is the case, the only people being heard ARE the zealots, both the pro-religion and pro-science ones. Nobody will be conviced to change by calling then "too weak and stupid to know better" (by either party) in a public forum. They'll just call you an arrogant fool and ignore you.
I'm afraid that every time see a post like this appear on /., Digg, The Register or any number of other 'techy' new sites, I know exactly what to expect. Lots of outspoken, rude and disrespectful posts in both directions. It will be interesting to see which 'side' people think I am on from the content of this post (hint, neither ;-) ) - FullMetalMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"When will you fools stop taking pride in your arrogance and begin questioning it? You flaunt your selfishness and lustfulness as something greater than the love of the True God. The one thing that can save you--faith in Jesus Christ, the God of creation--is what you are now referring to as a "blight upon humanity". I wish you would open your eyes and listen for once. Your death will come quickly enough, but your destruction will last an eternity."
WOW! You sound just lke this crazy guy that stands at the intersection shouting about "How we should believe on the ONE TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ OUR SAVIOR, or we will all die and go to hell just like the Terrorist Muslims and the Jews!"
You can believe in that, but I'm not going to!
Quit pressing your religion on other people and well quit pushing back! - Bogtha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Religion wasn't a blight upon humanity in the distant past. Clearly it was a historical benefit, otherwise religious communities would have died out as they were out-competed by atheist communities. The forms such benefits took were various, e.g. religion was partly responsible for the spread of literacy, religious fervor aided Joan of Arc's soldiers' morale, etc.
However, such times have passed, I think. I don't see how religion can aid today's societies. I do, however, see it impeding today's societies, by impeding critical thinking and scientific progress, by avoiding rationality and suppressing things like sex education.
Here's an example of the harm religion can cause:
"The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus."
"The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.
"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm
Religion *wasn't* a blight upon humanity. But it now is. - quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1195% of the world is religious? Where'd you get that number?
# Christianity - 2.1 billion
# Islam - 1.3 billion
# Atheist / Non Religious 1.2 billion
# Hinduism - 1.2 billion
# Buddhism - .7 billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations
In terms of growth, Atheism is the fastest growing religion next to only Islam. In western nations and east asia, Atheism is growing faster than any other religion. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -12/+20"premarital sex is against church teaching, so if you go out and do it, you are a deviant. It is the disordered attraction to things sex/money/drugs which cause people to sin--do what they know to be wrong. It is people themselves who cause all the problems in the world, not religion."
The fact that premarital sex is considered a sin is one of the most ludicrous ideas in the history of the world. - Glor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Did anyone even look at the graphs at the bottom of the article??? Remove Portugal and the United States, there is very little, if any, correlation between belief in religion and homicide rate. Sadly, in science, you sometimes see people interpreting their results to get the conclusion that they want (or that their funding source wants).
- Alphabet, on 10/12/2007, -7/+13@ berean, how about we're accountable for our own actions. It seems pretty stupid to base all your actions on some higher power.
"OH NO, I must do good deeds because god told me to." or "OH NO, I can not do bad deeds because god will punish me."
Instead, why don't you say "I will do good deeds because it's the right thing to do, and not do bad deeds because it hurts others." Grow up, and think for yourself - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Yes, but no-one ever killed anyone for not believing the same as they did about string theory.
- timmclargehuge, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13It makes sense to you because you've not really looked at the issue. The only countries that have made any sort of progress are those that have historically religious roots. Whether that's in the scientific progress made by western societies, or the mathematical breakthroughs found in the Islamic world in the 13th century. The reason is simple. Before the scientific method can be employed there has to be a belief that the laws of nature are rational and don't change arbitrarily. You can see the roots of this being laid in the earliest scientists being, at the very least, theists. Francis Bacon, Newton, and basically all of their contemporaries are counted in this group.
The contrast becomes even more obvious when you look at explicitly atheistic nations. The USSR and China (not as much now, but very much so under Mao) are both great examples of this. Not much in the way of progress, but quite a bit in the way of misery and death on a grandscale. Although this is more controversial Hitler can also be counted in this group. He was applying darwinist theory with racial overtones (BTW, for all you OMG HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN types, keep in mind he handed out copies of Nieztche to all his allies, not to mention Eichmann who was high in his command made it very clear that he believed the power of the Third Reich was found in their atheistic worldview just before he was executed. Did Hitler pander to Christianity prior to gaining power? Sure, but what politician doesn't do that with large groups. His actions and words after he wrapped his hands around the German people's collective throat speaks clearly though. - tigertiger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Look at north Korea, you can get executed for having a bible. They eat people over their. Russia, china. The absence of religion did more harm than good."
The banning of religion in those countries is a result of their problems, not the cause of them. There are many things wrong with NK and the rest but not being able to own a bible is way down the list.
"building a strong moral structure for society."
Why should that be necessary now? Humans have been around for long enough that we shouldn't need to be scaring people into behaving. - dime, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6
Yeah man.. it's part of the liberal agenda to turn you into a gay communist.
Prepare to be assimilated. Resistence is futile.
clod. - brandizzle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6God forces us to account for some of our actions, but anyone religious still has the power to say "This is the way God wanted it to be, it's out of my control now". And that's where we aren't being held accountable. There's a big difference between saying God controls the earth and will save us when we need help and saying we're all alone. And I think that saying we're all alone is what people aren't ready for yet.
If you get yourself in trouble you have nobody but yourself to get you out of it... - Glor, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I urge you all to take a look at the data at the bottom of the article. There is very little, if any, correlation between belief in religion and the number of homicides. Take out the U.S. and Portugal and there is absolutely no correlation. Sadly, scientists sometimes interpret data to give the conclusion they are looking for (or that their funding source is looking for).
- tigertiger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8"But if you remove religion from this nation and this world, it would be completely full of people with no morals and no reason to do anything that is not simply to benefit themselves."
I do love it when religious people suggest that we'd all being raping and killing each other if it wasn't for a belief in an angry sky-god.
If you have such a thin grip on sanity that the only thing keeping you from breaking out the chainsaw is fear of hell, I'd say you're a pretty pathetic human being. - cantaclaro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Religion isn't the problem, its certain practitioner of a given religion who pull most of this ***** out of thin air to best suit their current needs. Pat Robertson, Osama bin Laden, The Pope.
Take a guy like Billy Graham, just looking at him you can see that he is a good man. - DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Unfortunately, the only way to get rid of religion (other than by force) is to offer up something better. Religion offers life after death. Atheism offers perhaps a warm fuzzy feeling.
I am saying this as an atheist by the way. - genduke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Not many religions are like that. Let's not lump them all into the catho-christian pile. Judaism is not like that at ALL and is one of the oldest religions.
- ZergyPoo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7First a disclaimer: I am catholic.
A few things the Catholic Church does wrong:
1. The infalibility of the Pope. This is putting absolute power into one old man. This has stagnated the church for years.
2. Male-only priests: why not let women be priests?
3. Celibacy: pastors of every other denomination can marry and have children. Look at the problems with so many people in the priesthood (child molestation)... and while we're on that:
4. The highrarchy(sp?). Priest have gotten away with child molestation because the higher-ups in the church covered it up because they had the power.
5. Birth control: although it is debatable whether this is "right" or "wrong", the church does not have a very realistic stance on the issue.
This is just to name a few. - Bhima, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think the real objection, currently, comes from the trend of politicizing fundamentalist Christianity in the west and the militancy of Islam in the east. I can't say that I can blame them either... some times it feels like sanity is under attack from all of the Abrahamic religions.
I spent 10 years in Atlanta, Ga and my brief trips back to the American bible belt have been some of the most trying times for my practice... Trying to keep a level head amongst a sea of poorly educated militant fundamentalists.
The real pity is that is turns people against religion and against mythology and they're an important part of humanity (when they are not ripping it apart). - bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Right & wrong are very simple, intuitive things to understand at best, and a logically deterministic system at worst.
You like being treated a certain way. You like freedom, enjoy the knowledge that your children can grow up hoping to be anything they want to be. You enjoy your right to live without fear. Etc Etc. You are fundamentally no different from anyone else thrown onto this rock, and every human understands this.
The logical conclusions of this are:
1. Equal Rights. (thou shalt not kill... treat others as you with to be treated. Don't torture. Be polite, tolerant etc everything else you would expect)
2. Democracy. We've arrived at it through trial and error, but the *idea* of democracy is essentially mankind's equality. (your right to be heard as an equal. Note I refer to the idea and not necessarily our implementation)
3. The final 5 ten commandments are logical extensions of this basic premise. The first five really have no bearing on reality whatsoever. I can use the lords name in vain until the end of time & the little old lady will still cross the street safely on my arm.
I could go on, but ultimately, right & wrong all stem from the awareness of the self evident truth that we all share a consciousness that is fundamentally the same. - src666, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Personal religion (or faith) can be important and positive. Organized religions and faiths are the true blight. If you want to believe in a diety, and rely upon that diety to be your moral compass, then fine.
But don't for a second believe that your compass is better than mine just because you believe in that diety, bow down before some idol or sell flowers in the airport. That's the point where people start thinking that they need to impose their own beliefs upon others - "for their own good", "for the good of society", whatever. It's arrogance and it's destructive.
I don't need a god to tell me not to hurt other people. I don't need a pastor to tell me that lying and stealing is bad. I don't need to consult some crusty old book to tell me that killing someone is wrong. Any adult who _needs_ these external sources for basic right/wrong is either psychotic or a sociopath. Most people know right from wrong, regardless of their religion or their actions. And the holy rollers who believe that we don't are delusional. - genduke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Exactly. We need to all be free to practice or not practice whatever we wish. THAT is our way of life in America. So to say we need to slay religion is to basically go against our American forefathers and against our country's founding framework. Shame shame.
- argusbargus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"As a soldier, I'm terrified of countries that have no religion. Fact: atheistic states, including USSR and China, have slaughtered 100,000,000 people. Without a moral compass, folks like Stalin and Mao Tse Tung can do whatever they like.
When there are no moral absolutes, man naturally descends to evil, and that's why people suffer. God is the answer, not the problem."
Oh, I must be confused in my history! Here I thought it was the Christians who crusaded killing other believers (the Muslims and the Zoroastrians) and women and children. And I thought it was the US who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. And I thought it was the US and UK who bombed Dresden. Silly me.
Want to know what Moses was up to while wandering in the desert (Sunday school won't talk about this, but it is in the bible)? He and his merry band of murderers were performing ethnic cleansing in the name of God. Is this the moral compass of which you speak?
In the end, who cares? Religion is losing to science - that is why the last desperate attempt to get people to surrender to this irrational form of thought control by offering up this sham called "intelligent design". I challenge you to read "Uriel's Machine" - you will walk away understanding that Judaism, and therefore Christianity, and therefore Islam are based on untruths. - Bogtha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5> But if you remove religion from this nation and this world, it would be completely full of people with no morals and no reason to do anything that is not simply to benefit themselves.
If religion has retarded the development of their personal morals such that, in the absence of religion, they would be completely self-serving and act as you describe, then I would consider religion to have greatly harmed these people.
You accept that atheists can live a "good clean life" without religion. If you believe that religious people who lose their faith are incapable of the same, doesn't that indicate that either:
a) religious people are inherently less moral than atheists, or
b) religion has taken away or prevented the development of their innate ability to act morally?
In which case, religion is either the refuge of the immoral or actively harmful to followers. Which do you believe? - quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"Are you truly that blind? Religion is what makes us accountable!"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can kill someone, ask god for forgivness, and go to heaven if you believe in Christianity.
So, how does that make people accountable? - mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Science will never disprove religion because science can't prove a negative. Just as science can't prove God exists, you can't prove that God doesn't exist.
For some reason, some religions don't believe that science and religion can be compatible, when you'd think they'd jump all over science to back up their arguments. Instead, many people literally embrace passages from inaccurate, multiply-retranslated ancient books that continually contradict each other, believing that they trump anything that CAN be proved with science (hello, the earth isn't six thousand years old, people).
What humans need to do is mind their own goddamn business and stop thinking they are superior to other humans under any circumstances. You're an animated slab of meat who should be trying to make the world easier for the six billion other people you share the planet with; not going around wagging fingers and sanctimoniously judging everyone. - CedanticPunt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The difference being that the string theories have been introduced to explain particular phenomena, and if they don't fit they'll be modified or discarded as required. Although you can probably never 'see' a string, you can infer its existence if the theories about them fit the experimental data. That's where it differs from being a religion.
- OneZeroZeroOne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Why is the abscence of relgion always assumed to be filled with lust and excess?
What you're saying just confirms what many anti-religious people say: that religion is simply a tool for controlling and manipulating human behavior through fear and guilt. - tatnall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4People do all those things connection to religion or no connection. The death of religion won't mean the death of "violence, threats, murders, and genocide", you've still got to deal with the human problem inside or outside religion.
It's your choice, but unless you kill all the people too you'll still have those. So long as people exist they can and often will hurt others. Religion didn't bring that into the world. - mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5With all the hatred between the Christians, Jews, and Muslims, everyone taking part in this nonsense seems to forget that they're fighting over the same God and that their religions are rooted in the same books. And yes, Christians, Jesus is recognized as a prophet both in Islam and Judaism.
There is nothing more dangerous than self-centred ignorance. - Ratty, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8"Evil people will do evil things, but for good people to do evil things you need religion"
- tigertiger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Precisely. People can believe any whacked-out theory they like, but when they start to use it to harm others that's not acceptable. This is why there is such a backlash against Christianity and why it's usually the main target when discussing these subjects, because for everyone outside the US it looks like the country is run by a hardcore contingent of bible-thumpers and nutjobs who are using God as an excuse to invade countries, restrict behaviour they don't like and get rich.
(I'm not saying this is my view, but this is often the angle presented by the media.) - gfroese, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4[quote]How many millions of people have been horrifically slain in the name of "God", "Allah", "Yaweh", "Zeus", etc.?[/quote]
How many millions of people are helped by religious groups every day with nothing asked for in return? Some groups use aid efforts to convert the people they are helping, but there are countless people out there every day working to help "non-believers" for the sake of helping. - goodnewsevery1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Exactly Lighthouse... Organized Religion is just another form of Government... why do we trust them oh so much more? Do we really believe that organized religion doesn't lie or cover things up to protect themselves?
- Brak710101, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I believe in God and the rest of the beyond, but I don't really pray or go to church. Its seems like a boring waste of time, then on sundays I usually help others anyways. Whats better? Worship or getting good done?
I also hate the fact that alot of older religious peoples always look at the negative. I have one teacher in my highschool that insists that we are hated by God, we all are going to Hell and the world is about to end (she thinks the Cold War is still happening, and its covered up by the governments). She hates sports, and gets all of the other Sisters to vote down the violent sports (that included soccer and hockey) because they are full of "sins".
They ruin fun, and make you want to kill yourself because of all of the "sins" you commit without even "caring".
The bible in the hand of one man is worse than alcohol in another's.
So, agreed. Religion needs changed. - jasoneisen, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Cut religions some slack.
Religion is responsible for 4 of the 7 wonders of the world. They also gave us Renaissance art (Da Vinci, Michelangelo anyone?).
Yeah, they may be responsible for some of the most atrocious acts upon humanity, but also the most beautiful. - PBoiIceBerg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Just make it illegal to teach anyone under 18 any religion and simple have a morals class in school like they have a sex ed class. I'm an agnostic, but I don't believe religion is the true problem. It's the people behind the religions, deep seeded hatred started hundreds of years ago is kept alive because children are forced into believing what their parents want them to. Thus, the cycle never ends. As a race ever generation is getting closer to peace, but religion slows our efforts by centuries.
- tnvwboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3longman, your comments about premarital sex leading to rape are ignorant and irresponsible. Rape is not about sexual gratification. It's about power over another person. You are effectively spreading the myth that results in people saying the survivor was 'asking for it'.
I'm aware this is off topic but this is an issue that deserves clarification. - genduke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Glad you posted that. I keep seeing comments saying "religion impedes sexual education" and "religion prevents study and questioning".
Not all religions are like that. Study Judaism where you are taught HOW to question and sex is good.
It is ridiculous to just lump every religion into the catholicchristian pile. - Tynan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I'm an atheist and not American, but I understand how important religion is as a method of maintaining social cohesion and community. It might make you a bit more ***** up internally in some ways, but it produces a society which is much more resistant to outside threats than secularism.
The benefits of a central, unifying belief system cannot be denied. And I think we could use a bit more of one considering the threat of Islamism, a religion/culture which is a lot more confident of itself than European secularism and is thus gaining ground yearly in their quest to destroy the West by arms or outbreeding. - radu79, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10Yeah, let's burn at stake all the religious people!
(that was sarcasm, btw). - stupidStan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6on a completely different note, I find if hypocritical that we can all get together and bash religions like scientology that are completely absurd, c'mon now, they are just writings by some guy... And the bible is... uhh... well it is better because it is old!
- JohnboiWaltune, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@dantevsninjas
"The fact that premarital sex is considered a sin is one of the most ludicrous ideas in the history of the world."
It's ludicrous NOW, with the modern-day options of effective birth control, safe abortion, and feasible single motherhood. Not so ludicrous in a preindustrial society without these things. - longman2g, on 10/12/2007, -9/+12to quote myself, "It is the deviants from the religion which cause the evil."
premarital sex is against church teaching, so if you go out and do it, you are a deviant. It is the disordered attraction to things sex/money/drugs which cause people to sin--do what they know to be wrong. It is people themselves who cause all the problems in the world, not religion. - phbradley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Perhaps any kind of fervently supported dogma is the evil here - religion being just one example; nationalism being another. Suppressing critique and rationale in favour of blind belief and support is always going to be a hindrance to personal enlightenment, or at least getting closer to the truth of the reality that surrounds you.
- HiddenPeanuts, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6oh look! An online religion debate!
These always end well. -
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