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176 Comments
- inactive, on 02/15/2009, -7/+108But, I've been told over and over (and over) again that Christianity is the only source of "true" morality. Has someone been teaching these monkeys about the bible or something???
- Dipsomaniac, on 02/15/2009, -5/+54So, that's yet another category where monkeys and apes one-up members of the previous administration, and the editorial board of Fox News.
- grungegbunny, on 02/15/2009, -7/+51What and no bible to teach them morals? How can this be?
- CanceledCzech, on 02/15/2009, -5/+41Not surprising. They are herd animals. Morality helps keep the herd together, which equals survival. Need I say more?
- inactive, on 02/15/2009, -0/+36Don't underestimate those missionaries!
- DeviantDragon, on 02/15/2009, -4/+31Then I call upon the monkeys of the world to explain the goddamn poop throwing.
- womantribune, on 02/15/2009, -0/+27I was going to say something to the same effect here... First thing that popped into my head was the fact that the religious right continuously has said that they are the only people with the sense of true morality. And atheists? Well, we're all just immoral heathens brainwashing every man, woman and child we can get our hands on!
I'm now waiting for "This just in on Fox News: Monkeys have a sense of morality... obviously they have also accepted Jesus as their personal savior. Atheists are now worse off than monkeys." - 471776, on 02/16/2009, -10/+36So monkeys have actually evolved to surpass creationists. The irony is beautiful.
- spucky, on 02/16/2009, -1/+24I had to check your comment history assuming this was sarcasm. No one could possibly be this stupid. I was wrong.
- Chairboy, on 02/16/2009, -1/+22And their positions.
- inactive, on 02/16/2009, -1/+19Piranhas have morality too, even in the vicious of vicious attacks they seem to get along. Every group of animal gets along with the group.
"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual." -Mark Twain - brstilson, on 02/16/2009, -2/+19See I never got it when we had a school shooting and creationists would blame it on evolution: "if we teach our children that they're monkeys, they'll act like monkeys!" What the hell is wrong with acting like a monkey? When was the last time a monkey shot up a school?
- Wargasmic, on 02/16/2009, -1/+17They are still done because it creates a net gain in genetic reproduction.
- Wargasmic, on 02/16/2009, -1/+17Oh wow, Christians really stepped up their game, I saw the title and I guessed that the Christian persecution complex wouldn't start until the 20th post.
- EarlOfLade, on 02/15/2009, -7/+22This is the topic of the latest installment of "Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 29)", watch and vote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyd6om8IC4M - BCPneumatics, on 02/16/2009, -0/+14Hmm... A little time on dictionary.com reveals the following:
mor⋅al: 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong;
ethically: 1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
If they can act ethically, they're required by definition to have morals. You may tie some religious connotations to the word, because you tie them to moral behaviour as a whole. - LilJimmyNordin, on 02/16/2009, -0/+13TL;DR
- brstilson, on 02/16/2009, -0/+13I see you caught thunderf00t's latest "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists?" video.
My favorite part is when he says that moral absolutes are a luxury for those who live comfortable lives. It's not so easy to uphold morality when killing someone else to take their food will make the difference between living and dying. - BCPneumatics, on 02/16/2009, -0/+12Dugg for taking the work out of it.
- Kosh, on 02/16/2009, -2/+13Christian morality doesn't quite work that way. They believe that all morality comes from God, but they also believe that a moral nature is intrinsic to humanity because of their very nature. They call this the natural law and also use it to escape from the dilemma of whether God chooses good or good is apart from God. So while they would argue that morality is from God a Christian should never argue that you must be Christian to be moral. There are so many cases of moral non-christians that such an argument would fall on its silly face in twenty seconds.
Not that that has anything to do with monkeys, just thought I'd play a little Devil's Advocate. :P - GovernmentsGun, on 02/16/2009, -0/+10Um, ethics is a system composed of moral ideals. A moral idea is a question about right or wrong in a given situation.
- nysus, on 02/16/2009, -2/+12When my dog used to crap in the house, she would act very shamed.
- buckrogers1965, on 02/16/2009, -1/+11So monkeys are ethically more advanced than lawyers, politicians, CEOs, and bankers?
- LilJimmyNordin, on 02/16/2009, -0/+10That's its own reward. What needs explaining is how they do it so efficiently without the internet.
- inactive, on 02/16/2009, -2/+12they actually tossed the bible centuries ago when it taught them masturbation is wrong.
- brstilson, on 02/16/2009, -0/+9And humans go to war, yet you don't see Creationists complaining too much about killing with a group in that context. Somehow I don't see Kent Hovind saying "you know why Vietnam happened? Evolution."
It's fun to think that humans are so superior and have this divinely-gifted sense of right and wrong, but morality is hardly universal. It changes and depends on the situation. I posted above echoing the words of youtube's thunderf00t: "Morality is a luxury for those living comfortable lives." - Dreamstate, on 02/16/2009, -1/+10Anthropology 101.
I can't name one single species of pack animals where beneficial actions such as not killing others in the group aren't a big part of the survival of both the group and the individual.
This is not exclusive to apes, take one look at any given pack animal and you'll see they have basic moral values. - tonyteetime, on 02/16/2009, -4/+12Wouldn't it be nice if those CEO's on wall street had some of this morality ?
- Wargasmic, on 02/16/2009, -2/+10I agree jgtg32a, but it's only because Diggers speak their mind; unlike the rest of society that just rolls over and lets Christians walk all over them.
- EricSchC1, on 02/16/2009, -3/+11Either that, or they've always been ahead of creationists, which is just hilarious.
- StaticThunder, on 02/17/2009, -0/+7Helping siblings and more distant relatives, even if it impacts your own reproductive success pays dividends at the level of genes, since the people you are helping share most of your genes and will be more successful because of your sacrifices, thus propagating your attributes -- perhaps including your tendency towards altruism.
Genetic altruism in a nutshell. - Logicexe, on 02/16/2009, -0/+7Not unless you actually want those damn dirty apes to evolve and take over the world. Why do you hate humanity?
- OneOfNone, on 02/16/2009, -0/+7I'd argue the opposite. If you define morality as something codified by religion (which one(s)?), you cannot avoid defining morality as a social norm. Even if you take a single religion, society gets to decide which passages are taken literally, and which are not.
And in that sense, apes and other passably intelligent social animals do act morally (or get crap from others). "Mores", after all, are norms/customs.
With this definition of morality, you can act morally but completely unethically. Jihads, crusades, paid indulgences, human sacrifice - you name it. - Wargasmic, on 02/16/2009, -0/+7Thunderf00t is a ***** badass. Everyone should subscribe to him if they are even remotely interested in stuff like this.
- nitsuj, on 02/17/2009, -0/+6@warriormonk,
"So which morals would YOU include? How about the Golden Rule (treat others the way you would like to be treated.) - in or out? Thou shalt not murder - in or out? Thou shalt not commit adultery -in or out? Who decides?"
Societies decide. Social rules are there to keep social order and harmonious existence. Religions tried to claim their stake in this but rules are formed anyway with or without them.
If you want to follow bible rules then get lost and set up a tent in a desert somewhere. - Memnochxx, on 02/16/2009, -0/+6Chimpanzees do go on territorial raids of neighboring groups and kill opposing members.
- nitsuj, on 02/17/2009, -0/+6The answer of course is no. It also points to religion taking it's morality from inbuilt human behaviour which is, of course, evolved.
- MacEnvy, on 02/16/2009, -0/+6Do you understand the absolute irrationality of your religious words, or do you choose not to closely examine them before hitting "Save Reply"?
- inactive, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5All careless uses of and dubious distinctions between "moral" and "ethical" aside, it ought to have always been taken for granted that members of other species have personal values and, because many species are communal, also have communal values. One's "morality" or "ethics" is merely ones set of values without any necessary statement about what those specific values may be. In other words, even though an individual human being does not strictly hold to the values of civilization - if at all - they nevertheless have values by which they make individual choices in the face of alternatives to their actions. Even the brute has values, even the brute has ethics or morality. They simply aren't the values and thus the ethics or morality of those who are more fitting of the label "civilized" as it pertains to human behavior. Of course, it can be argued that some species indeed have a "civilization" of their own making.
It should be taken for granted that human ethics or morality is more complex than that of any other species on the planet, however, it ought not be proclaimed that ***** Sapiens Sapiens is the only species capable of creating values. There are many species that clearly seem to fully understand the value of individual freedom over captivity, the value of a meal over starvation, the value of one sort of food over another, the value of safe water to drink over dangerous waters, the value of safety over danger, the value of a warm place to sleep versus exposure to the cold, the value of companionship over loneliness, the value of air to breath over suffocation, the value of life over its absence. Though the values they understand may be basic and simplistic, they are values nonetheless - an ethic or morality all their own. - johnleemk, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5As a Christian, that is actually how I understand morality.
- StaticThunder, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5"It isn't really "morality" as much as it is a sense of what is best for the common good of the group"
And that is different from morality in what way exactly? The size of the group? Who/what you consider a member? - ashfish, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5Yes, well True Christians (TM) (read fundamentalists) don't seem to really understand how Christianity works on any level yet they're the most vocal of all practitioners. Particularly when it comes to the issue of morality and how you MUST accept Jesus in order to be a good and moral person. It's quite mind boggling.
- anexanhume, on 02/16/2009, -2/+7I was going to comment, but I found my exact thoughts in the article:
'The scientists say, however, that the evidence is clear. “I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals,” said Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University in Georgia in the United States. '
This is an example of glorified social rules. At no point were we told that these primates were isolated from birth, so we can assume they were in the presence of other members of their species. From here, their complex intellects would allow them to observe accepted behaviors and repeat them. They would be able to reason when certain behaviors are required or appropriate.
This is different than the isolated introspective process humans undergo that allows definitions of right and wrong to develop. - ApokalypseNow, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5@warriormonk
Monkeys and many other groupings of social animals get by as well as they do because they work together instead of against each other. From a purely biological standpoint, behaviors that are detrimental to the group are bad, and should be selected against.
You're once again making the mistake that evolution is an assumption. As a result of the scientific process, evolution is a conclusion drawn from evidence. I understand that an an apologetic, you're used to trying to get things to fit into a mold, but science does not work that way. - CamperBob, on 02/16/2009, -0/+5<img src=pic of thirsty dog and rotary sprinkler.jpg>
- Backstab, on 02/16/2009, -2/+7I knew that already since we're apes.
- BCPneumatics, on 02/16/2009, -1/+6Yeah, but they still don't have opposable thu- oh. Darn.
- setset, on 02/16/2009, -0/+5maybe you were too busy reading the bible?
- Paranor01, on 02/16/2009, -0/+5You haven't seen the GOP talk about "liberals", have you? They throw so much ***** around that even monkeys look in awe and go "Dammmmnnnnn..."
- Matri, on 02/17/2009, -0/+5You might want to give up your Made-By-Satan(c) computer and move out of your house, which was made by SatanTools(tm).
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