What is Digg?64 Comments
- sheep555, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10"i thought it was weird how the last one still didn't sound "prefect", i would have thought that our technology would have been better then that."
OK, as someone with quite a bit of experience of the Cochlear Implant programme, I'll try and address a few issues.
The limiting factor is the number of electrodes that can be inserted into the cochlear to stimulate it. The number of electrodes in implants varies (normally 22ish), and generally modern newer implants have quite a few more than those of the late 80s. Obviously the number of nerves (apologise for my dodgy Biology, it never was my strong point) in the cochlear far outnumber these electrodes, so the sound quality is dodgy at best. Someone compared it once to "everything sounding like a Dalek".
The other misunderstanding is that cochlear implants can instantly restore hearing. This isn't always true. Often people who have been totally deaf well into adulthood will not benefit from cochlear implants, since they will not be able to process this new information. Those who benefit most are generally young infants, who can easily adapt and learn speech. Quite a few people who would benefit from a cochlear implant actually, sadly, can't have one due to deformities of the cochlear itself preventing surgical implantation. They're also, as you might guess, extremely expensive.
Interestingly, there are also certain segments of the deaf community that are oppossed to cochlear implantation, for various reasons - mainly that is destroys the sign language "deaf community", and the like. This is, as far as I know, a quite vocal but very small minoritory. - Mambo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The can is no longer green. As I understand it, color only comes from light.
- Dwebtron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3http://digg.com/science/Deaf_hacker_rewrites_implant-firmware_so_he_can_enjoy_music_again.
- sheep555, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"You have to remember, we are basically modding the human brain! "
Not really. A cochlear implant goes nowhere near the brain. It modifies the cochlear.It replaces the hair cells that trigger impulses to be sent to the brain. The actual nerves than run from the cochlear to the brain remain untouched (meaning if these are damaged, an implant probably isn't going to work). - sheep555, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"so....how long before an evolution of this technology will allow us to augment our hearing to sense ultrasonic and infrasonic waves??????"
That's not a technological limitation - it's a biological one. To simplify a lot, the cochlear picks up sound due to the vibrations of hair cells. These hair cells each respond to specific frequencies, with those at higher frequencies being more susceptible to damage (explaining why as you get older you will find it harder to hear high pitched sounds).
So the human body will never be able to hear ultrasonic sounds...however, it is technically possible (and is done) to record ultrasonic sounds (because obviously you can design microphones with far higher frequency responses than the human ear) and then pitch the down digitally without slowing the speed down, which allows us to hear a representation of what they might sound like. - rimco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Well do we remember the digg from long, long ago about how a guy was able to tap into the optic nerve of a cat and "see" what it was seeing? We don't know if we were actually seeing what it saw, again, because we didn't have its perspective. In the case of the cat, he intercepted a signal from the optic nerve before it reached and was processed by the brain... kinda like the difference between a cow and processed beef. This is the same idea... we can "hear" what the deaf person hears, but it also depends on how it's perceived. I've been afflicted with an ear infection for two weeks unable to hear much out of my left ear due to plugged-up eustachian tubes... yesterday my ear finally popped, the pressure was relieved, and I could hear out of my left ear again... and everything was LOUD AS HELL. I'd been used to hearing only muffled noises, and now it was crystal clear and annoyingly loud. So... I, umm.... forgot what my point was.... dammit! Yay for me!
- superal1394, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"This brings up the interesting question of perception. How do we know that that's what a deaf person hears through an implant? How do I know that your color "red" is the same as my color "red"?
We are taught what colors are, but there is no absolute frame of reference. My eye could be "white balanced" differently than your eye. The same thing applies to all our senses."
I've always wondered about that. you have to wonder what growing up under different conditions might do to how our brains are wired to percieve and decode our senses. Perhaps some one from the equator might not be able to see in darkness very well, while people from lets say Binghamton NY (sunshine is a luxury here) may be able to see in darkness well, but dislike ultra-bright days. - iKato, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1digg for Alan Alda.
- WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2spacedyevest wrote: "you are holding a green can in your hand and then you walk into a completely pitch dark room where there is no light whats so ever. Does the can remain green?"
Well, it obviously still has a surface structure that would reflect the most light in the green area of the spectrum if any were present, but it could hardly be described as green in the absence of light radiation containing a significant portion of "green" wavelengths... At different spectra than the typical "white" light we're used to, the can's surface might reflect a different wavelength range over its neighboring ones, making it appear to be a new "color". In the total absence of visible radiation, color is a meaningless quantifier. Where it might make sense to still associate it in case visible radiation returns, it would probably lose its association pretty quickly if you had to interact with the can without associating it with color for any appreciable amount of time. - spacedyevest, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2okay how about this one....
you are holding a green can in your hand and then you walk into a completely pitch dark room where there is no light whats so ever. Does the can remain green? - slowth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've enjoyed reading everyone's interesting and thought provoking comments. Digg actually can be a forum for civilized discussion. Who would've thought? Thanks all
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I am deaf and after hearing that I myself am going in for a cochlear implanting on the 29th!
>_>"
If you're deaf, how did you hear it? - vostek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1so....how long before an evolution of this technology will allow us to augment our hearing to sense ultrasonic and infrasonic waves??????
- heresiarch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a deaf person with a cochlear implant, I definitely digg this. I lost my hearing due to bacterial meningitis when I was 2 years old. I received a cochlear implant with only 10 electrodes due to ossification of my cochleas. They had 22 available at the time, so I received less than half. There are 24 available now, at least with Cochlear - there may be a lesser number of electrodes that are stronger used by other cochlear implant companies.
It's not easy to explain to people how I hear, since I've been hearing this way with my cochlear implant since I was 3 years old. The way I hear is that not all words are clear to me. When someone says something to me that I don't understand, I heard the person talking, I just didn't make sense of the words. I understand people better as I spend more time conversing with them. I listened to the different audio files on the PBS site. They sounded a lot like the situation after when I get my cochlear implant adjusted by an audiologist. Even though the adjustment is meant to be better, it starts off sounding distorted and somewhat masculine. But my brain quickly adjusts to it, and before I realize it, I feel like my hearing is back to normal.
The cochlear implant isn't for everyone. Like another commenter said, the implants don't work for people who are older, as they have passed the normal lingual learning period. I've read that because the part of the brain that normally interprets sound starts doing other functions as a deaf person grows up, which may be a reason why older deaf people have more difficulty using a cochlear implant.
Erik - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Paul: "That's exactly my point. Exactly. Because you have to wonder: how do the machines know what Tasty Wheat tasted like? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what I think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like oatmeal, or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken, for example: maybe they couldn't figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything."
- pancho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wonder if this is a matter of adjustment. If a person was locked in a dark room for a long period of time, the eyes would eventually adjust to the dark and the person would be able to see better than when they first went in. So maybe the 22 channel sounds bad to us because we are used to clean crisp sound. But maybe the sound is clear to a deaf person who has had the implant for a year or two.
Just a thought; They say that when you lose a sense, they remaining senses strengthen to compensate for the loss. However if the sense is restore, as in this case, do the sense weaken to compensate? - TibarNapies, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"hmmm... i thought it was weird how the last one still didn't sound "prefect", i would have thought that our technology would have been better then that."
You have to remember, we are basically modding the human brain! The fact we can even do this much is, in and of itself, pretty frick'n amazing to me. It will get better with time, as will bionic eyes and ocular implants( http://www.seeingwithsound.com/etumble.htm ). Even with the less than perfect quality of today's implants, we should be amazed that we can do this at all. - CammyBoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My AP psychology class watches some of these Alan Alda/PBS specials every once in a while. They're pretty good as far as educational films go.
- jettavito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0How do they know what the deaf person is hearing???
- schrags, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That would scare the crap out of me, lol
- PelleX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0For those wondering if this is what the deaf person actually hears: it is fairly easy to simulate the effect since we know exactly which processing is being done on the input signal by the implant electronics to split it into the frequency bands used by the 22 (or less) electrodes. Not that different to lossy audio encoding really...
However a deaf person's brain might certainly fill in the gaps in a different way than we would expect, but overall I think the representation in the example is quite accurate. - TheCardinal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That is sweet.
- Vesty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0well this was interesting. Here at my college there are a lot of deaf kids and many of them have this implant, and I always wondered what it was like
- freshcope66, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I totally agree with Paul up above, do we really know what we are hearing is the same thing that a deaf person is really hearing. Its a super interesting article, however I feel strongly that perception is key here and what we see and here may be different than we we perceive other people are seeing and hearing.
- freekz_8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0hmmm... i thought it was weird how the last one still didn't sound "prefect", i would have thought that our technology would have been better then that.
- Kendal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Is it just me, or does Alan Alda also provide the voise for Borg transmissions,
"Hi, we are Alan Alda, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile. Please leave a message after the tone." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That is really damn cool. Those saying "Not good enough!" from the viewpoint of always seeing gaming technology advance for less useful reasons, STFU! It's still amazing that this can even be done.
- matx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0its all about the algorithms!!
- leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Maybe some smart digger will be inspired to improve this technology in the future.
- karch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0^^^ i think you're wrong. i'm pretty sure the signals inputted by the implants are not in the exact same format as the ears before them had sent before. thus the brain, due to its plasticity, magically modifies its organization to somehow interpret the messages correctly by an unknown mechanism..
- karch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0by the way, i love alda and nova. best sci tv shows evar
- psylence, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Because of these we still have to hear Rush Limbaugh every day. CURSE TECHNOLOGY.
- jack_dt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0http://deafbase.com/postt18.html
- MortenAaserud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The 4 channel sounds like something form a horror movie
This it sweet - intoflatlines, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0very cool
digg - GameMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Wow that sounds liek *****...our technology sucks we fail as a race...
- knightblade2oo4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am deaf and after hearing that I myself am going in for a cochlear implanting on the 29th!
>_> - dragonflight, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Didn't realize they were that scrambled...always came off with the impression they would be comparable to a normal earlobe.
- savmac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That is totally awesome!
- driedwater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am also a cochlear implant user. I only have 8 channels.. I listened to the sounds on the website,. and I'm thinking to myself.. well my hearing isn't that bad when I listen to speech in real life.. it might just be because I am so accustomed to it because when I first got the implant I couldn't understand a single word. It took me about 3 years until I was able to understand speech clearly. I started wearing hearing aids when I was 2.. and got my implant when I was 19 yearsold. So when i first got my implant everything was so unclear and way too loud because I was so accustomed to quiet hearing aids. I am happy with my cochlear implant but I would like to get another one in about 10 years from now.. I had mine for about 7 years now. I have a girlfriend who is deaf and she prefers the deaf culture .. and that is fine with me... I am in both the hearing world and the deaf world.. so I am able to transalate for her. Sometimes I wish it were better but I realize this technology is just so complex so the fact that they are able to create a device so that those who are deaf can hear electronically is amazing.
- tw0bit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Im scured!!
- jack_dt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Here's a site that has information about the cochlear implant debate from the perspective of some deaf folk:
http://deafbase.com/postt7.html
http://deafbase.com/article585.html - spyke77, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I recall another Digg post on that subject and it appears that researchers are working on a 100 channel implant.
- njbair, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sweet.
- leprasmurf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0How do they know what the deaf person is hearing???
posted by jettavito (0) at 06:09 PM 1/12/06
OK, people have given their opinion on this one, but let me suggest a simple alternative, not everyone is born deaf. My wife is convinced that she will loose her hearing by the time she's 40, she has grown up knowing sound, and if she looses her hearing, she'll still have that baseline to compare to.
much like the gentleman in the digg story http://digg.com/science/Deaf_hacker_rewrites_implant-firmware_so_he_can_enjoy_music_again who could hear music at one point, then lost all of his hearing and wasn't satisfied until he could hear it again.
I recall another Digg post on that subject and it appears that researchers are working on a 100 channel implant.
posted by spyke77 (0) at 04:24 AM 1/13/06
Perhaps your talking about the digg story that I just mentioned, if so I don't believe they are actually trying to complete a 100 channel implant, because that person had already had the implant surgically installed, and was just continuously working on the firmware. The end result of that story being a scientist he found was able to simulate over 100 channels of sound. Something about varying the sync of the impulses and electrical signals. - Trishlyn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There is a boy in my daughter's class who is getting the implants at the end of the month and we are just thrilled for this. Being deaf in first grade, before you can read, is sad and frustrating. Plus he wears these huge hearing aids that he still pulls at and touches a lot. The kid already has so many difficulties, being teased, not being able to keep up, etc, and this is going to help him with a lot of that pain.
As for it sounding like crap, it is so far superior to anything that he can hear with his hearing aids that it's not even an issue. After the surgery a teachers aid won't have to sit next to him re-telling him everything the teacher just said. (Obviously, the hearing aids do little, he is almost totally deaf.)
That said, the procedure is horribly expensive. We raised over $ 8000 for the family which is being matched in our charitable fund (we are a private school) but they are still going to have to pay in after their deductible. The kids going to have to wait a while for an XBox.
I'm bringing this into school this afternoon and playing it for the kids. - rastorize, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@karch "by the way, i love alda and nova. best sci tv shows evar"
Agreed - but Aldo Nova is also pretty good! (the musician? 'Monkey on Your Back' anyone?)
Great article too btw... - krillion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0 I will have to wait to go deaf till the 64 bit version comes out. ô¿ô
/reminds self to turn down stereo. - Hella, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Thats neat, digg
- Disease, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0lol, mind hax
-
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