What is Digg?33 Comments
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I think this is true because of the way Latin/English speakers process language vs the way people of Asian descent process language.
For Asians (I'm sorry if "Asians" regarded as racist, but I really can't think of a better way to express it), language is depicted in symbols, so most of the language is based on rote of pictography, which for the most part, is exactly how mathematics is represented (which may explain the bias towards Asians in mathematics).
In English/Latin languages, mathematics is regarded as a language onto itself; it's a seperate language that has to be learned aside from our spoken and writen languages, basically requiring a translation to take place in our minds (which is why it activates the language center, converting our latin-based characters to mathematic pictography, and then re-arranging the symbols), which may explain why mathematics is simply too tough for many English speakers.
It's interesting to think that different languages may develop different internal biases in the mind, and may redefine education as we know it (teaching children from a young age a pictographic language such as Chinese or Japanese instead of latin-based languages like Spanish or French, along side English to make mathematics more approachable later in life). - crashflow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11No, "Asian" is not racist. Its how you use it.
Anyway, it's true about the pictograph part, language becomes a series of images, unlike English which is phonetical. Chinese is actually two languages, one written and one oral. Knowing one does not give you any clues on how to grasp the other one easily. English, on the other hand, is said like it's spelled, most of the time. - iggee85, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"For Asians (I'm sorry if "Asians" regarded as racist, but I really can't think of a better way to express it), language is depicted in symbols"
Well, technically the english alphabet is also based on symbols. The difference is the symbols in the english alphabet represent phonetic sounds which when used by itself don't mean anything. Whereas, chinese characters depict entire words and ideas. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5szelij that is why the title says "Chinese SPEAKERS and English SPEAKERS do Math differently in their head."
- wishmeluck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It could also be that they use the abacus which is a visual aid in schools. With proper training a person can do larger calculations than computers using only a mental abacus.
- theRIAA, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3so what happens when they drive?
- sinembarg0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/politics-1/1151356472304280.xml&storylist=washington
- transfire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Further validating the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis
Actaully I think a good way to improve math skills is to learn a second number system well, base-6 for instance is a very useful way to count for English speakers and it opens up ones mind to the true menaing of numbers, they are not just symbols. - zephc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1flightvector: Spoken Japanese is, for the most part, syllabic (not phonetic), but is written mostly pictographically (Kanji). I doubt most Japanese speakers approach their language anything closer than a syllabic granularity (that is, breaking words down into syllables, like shi, ru, to, but not further down into phonemes like p, k, d).
Japanese doesn't have any alphabets, just syllabries like katakana and hiragana - Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a native Chinese speaker, no, not really. I think the study is pretty weak and really doesn't match my experience as I switched languages. The one thing that has stayed the same is how I do math. I visualize Arabic numerals, not Chinese nor English. I visualize it the same way I would write down the digits as I do it on paper. Arithmetics is obviously not my forte. Generally speaking, when I do math, it doesn't really involve too many words or languages. Words, symbols, and numbers are used only to record ideas so I don't forget them as I go deeper and chase another train of thought.
In any case, I think Chinese students acquire a sterotypes of being good at math simply because their culture has a strong emphasis on it and they also look down on the use of calculators. You might see a difference in arithmetic performance early on but as the students move into areas of math that require proof, etc., you see that they're all about the same. So, if there is a difference, it's not inherent in the language they speak or learn as much as a culture that values the ability to do mental math. My father also gave me a hard time because I have to use paper and pencil to do math. LOL. - zephc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is also probably the same with Japanese native speakers. Written language types (phonetic, syllabic, symbolic) affect thought patterns in different ways. It makes perfect sense that this would extend into mathematic manipulations in the mind.
@iggee85: english and other speaker of phonetic languages do often read many words as unique symbols, probably in a manner that converges with pictographic readers, though it is probably more with very familiar words. However, phonetic languages have the advantage of being able to deduce the words with only a few rules.
Chinese has as a spoken language diverged heavily from the phonetic clues the pictographs originally gave. - flightvector, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well I think "Asians" is too broad here; keep in mind that Japanese and Korean are not symbolic languages at all, they both have alphabets. In Korean, there are 24 characters consisting of vowels and consonants. It is exceptionally easy to learn and to pronounce (if you can pronounce spanish adequately). Any native english speaker can learn to read Korean in 2 days.
- Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am bilingual. My first languages were two dialects of Chinese, Fujianese and Cantonese. My first written is Chinese traditional. However, having moved to the US since I was seven, English is definitely my dominant language. I'm not sure what to make of the study. It doesn't gel at all with my experience. My mathematics skills didn't changed at all as I changed languages. I've gone from vocalizing my thoughts interally in Cantonese to English but how I do math has stayed the same. When I do arithmetics I visual Arabic numerals, not Chinese nor English.
Plus did anyone notice how small the sample size was? I've taken some psychology in college and a general number they tossed around for a decent sample size was 25 for each population, IIRC. This study had 7 total! - Everman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This begs the question, is a native Chinese speaker inherently better at math than a native English speaker?
For example: Male brains are more visual oriented. Therefore a male who processes math in the visual area of the brain should have better performance than one who processes in the language area?
Obviously they are both quite capable of mastering the most difficult concepts, so I guess the answer to my question is no. - zephc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Comatose51: it's not a matter of which number system you use, they are referring to a possible connection between written language manipulation and number manipulation.
- cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@geminitojanus: I don't think this is only valid for English or Latin-based languages, but for the entire indoeuropean language family. So this would also include the slavic languages.
- Suspected, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When I hear "seven plus three," my immediate response is ten. I don't visualize the numbers nor sound them out. I find it strange that you have to visualize simple arithmetic.
- flightvector, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Japanese is a phonetic language, not pictographic, it has a 48 character alphabet and is versatile (you can sound out English using Japanese characters) if slightly limited in available consonant sounds.
- Etheo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would assume whatever language you think in is the predominant one, which governs which brain area you utilize.
- Precision, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1i innately already know this is true (being half asian/half white) and having lived in US and traveling to asian countries like taiwan and china...
I get the best of both worlds muahhahahahhahah... - asdfff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is absolutely amazing. I natively speak chinese/taiwanese but have since learned to be a writer (in English) starting at age 10. I thought to myself, "7+3", and visualized 7 + 3 in my head, (nods to myself,) which is what the article described. Then I read on...native English speakers use the language processing parts of the brain? Which was unfathomable to me. I can't imagine doing even something as simple as 7+3 relying only on sounding out the problem and mouthing the answer. For me it's far too slow, but your mileage (evidently) will vary.
- protospike, on 12/16/2008, -0/+0I read an article about recent research (I think in a recent issue of TIME?) that shows many teachers hold stereotypical assumptions about their students depending solely on their race.
If a teacher assumes that "asians are all good at math" (and they're most definately not), then the teacher can fail to render assistance to students who really need it. - protospike, on 12/16/2008, -0/+0In cases like this, it's just immediate memory retrieval. I wouldn't call it maths.
- SubZane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I visualise the numerals 1 and 0 (10) when I think of 7+3. But most ppl use these numerals when doing math it's strange that it would be different depending on native language, I mean, chinese/japanese don't do math with their symbols for 12345... they use numerals just as me.
- 66np66ip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@crashflow, RE: "Chinese is actually two languages, one written and one oral. Knowing one does not give you any clues on how to grasp the other one easily."
While I respect your illustration of the primary differences between the two languages, I don't entirely agree with you on this point. Knowing one does in fact give you clues on how to grasp the other more easily.
Many of the more complex Chinese characters consist of a pictogram of arranged root - or more basic - characters such as "man," "water," "flower," etc. Case in point, a quick google search lead me to this image: http://www.chinese-outpost.com/newsletters/sources/2004/11/ccf_definitions.gif
The image shows the root word "zheng," or "upright" in Chinese, and illustrates more complex characters in which it is used along with their respective pronunciations and meanings. (The numbers after the pronunciations denote one of four intonations that are applied in Mandarin speech.) Notice how although the intonation changes, many derivations of "zheng" are pronounced in the same way. Many Chinese speakers learn to infer pronunciation of words in this manner when the characters are unfamiliar to them. Likewise, character design can be inferred from contextual speech, although to a much less accurate degree.
I completely agree with you on the use of "Asian," and I'm glad you pointed that out. - protospike, on 12/16/2008, -0/+0But Modern Chinese is not pictographic nor is it even ideographic. It's more appropriate to refer to it with the more general term -- logographic. However, you can still see the legacy of Chinese's ancient pictographic origins such as the character for "mountain", which looks like a mountain.
- trunkster, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I still say it's because of the importance the culture makes of it.
- jlef, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0variations on a most honorable theme. purmutational hierarchies seem to be in order. inner space can be so much fun. i want to see this stuff on screen. in math,101,biology101,scio etc. i think this china/pacific century thing is begomming very interestttinggg! east meets west. best of both worlds. shaloom.
- GeneralChang, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1.... this explains alot.
- szelij, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1That depends on their first language/the language that they're more comfortable in. It doesn't matter if they're of Asian decent if they can't speak a word of Mandarin or Tamil.
- davidp, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1"native English speakers also showed activity in a language processing area of the brain, while native Chinese speakers used a brain region involved in the processing of visual information"
interesting...
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