What is Digg?102 Comments
- BadassCheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+70I was way the ***** off, my bad.
- jblade, on 10/12/2007, -26/+88Quit Drinking your Hatorade.
- djSyndrome, on 10/12/2007, -24/+72I'd be much less of a hater if my 360 hadn't been bricked by last week's dashboard update. Thanks for playing, though.
- phlogiston99, on 10/12/2007, -3/+49What is this? 1982? Since when is the number of line of code a measure for anyhting?
Does it have anything to do with the 20 billions lines of code necessary to manage Jurassic Park?
It's all a big load! - spooniep, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31According to this post:
http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/
Windows NT5 had appx. 20 million lines of source code, Windows 2000 had 32 million, and Windows XP has 40 million, so 4.7 million lines isn't an unheard of amount. - themarkshow, on 10/12/2007, -12/+40One thing should be mentioned that the XBOX 360 as a stand alone HD DVD player is the FASTEST on the market. For anyone who has used an HD DVD player you know start-up time and loading of a disc take a minute or two. With the XBOX 360 since it is just playing a HDDVD it loads as fast as a regular DVD. Anyone interesting in buying HDDVD it is worth just buying the xbox and the add on player because it is very fast and about the same price a a regular HDDVD player.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+34As a programmer, you're not going to stay employed very long if all you can churn out is a few dozen lines of code a day. ;)
@rishid
I'm curious.. where did you get that 40 million figure from? I don't doubt it, I'm just wondering. - spooniep, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27I think that the 4.7 million lines number includes some standard SDKs, the video and audio codecs, Microsoft's GDI libraries, etc....so it wasn't all written just for the 360 HD DVD. (Although they did have to rewrite some codecs specifically for the 360 as well). That said, it's still a crapload of code.
- Wisgary, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* !!!!!!!IF YOU CHANGE TABS TO SPACES, YOU WILL BE KILLED!!!!!!!
* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!DOING SO ***** THE BUILD PROCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - rhfb, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24Thanks DRM!
- SQUIDwarrior, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Hey lay off the guy. How much code you actually produce is highly dependent on the type of coding you're doing. Some projects have a lot of overhead for any actual code changes, especially anything highly critical or that requires complete testing (i.e. DO-178B level A). If you have to write a test that ensures that every single path through you code is taken, and every input and output is range tested and tested for robustness, then update documentation and write comments, you might be only be able to produce a few dozen lines.
However I highly doubt the HD-DVD drive was built to military specs. :P That's still a lot of code though :) - lusername, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Check http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx for the full story. Skip the blog link which has no value-add as far as I can tell...
- olego, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18@BadassCheese,
Maybe if the lines are really, reeeeally long. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+24@ piper999 -
You must be one hell of a crap programmer if you can maybe produce a few dozen lines of code and then require the rest of the day to test it.
Maybe you should stick to your day job / school / whatever you really do. - davodavo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Nothing takes 4.7 billion lines of code. Might've had a point had you not been off by an order of magnitude.
Or if, you know, you had a point. - piper999, on 10/12/2007, -17/+26As a programmer I'm struggling to believe the 4.7 million lines of code figure.
4.7 Mb of executable code I could just about get my head round but 4.7 million lines of code? Bckground info: one programmer might produce a few dozen lines of clean and tested code a day and you can do the math for yourself how long, for instance, 100 programmers working 7 days a week would take to churn of 4.7 million lines of code. - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10It's hardware built by MS. Go figure. MS is a software company with hoards of coding minions. When all you have is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9why would the fan noise bother you unless you are sitting directly behind the damn thing? I've got mine tucked in my entertainment center on the bottom shelf with plenty of ventilation and I can't hear it at all when the glass door is shut.
- WiFiSPY, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Because you have to decode the audio, then mix it with the interactivity stuff, and then encode the resulting audio as Dolby 640Kb/s (DVD is 448Kb/s)
- rishid, on 10/12/2007, -10/+17I can guarantee you the software engineers are writing at least 1000 lines of code a day. 4.7 Million is definetely a bit over exagerated I believe. Windows XP has 40 Million lines of code, so I don't think an HD DVD codec would need 1/10th the amount of code an operating system does.
- WiFiSPY, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The drive is just a usb connected external slim HD DVD drive. The 360 does everything else.
- xinul, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Yes you are missing something about $400. That is how much more a standalone player costs
- Shorties, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'll digg you down Davo for being completely incorrect, I have my 360 Idling constantly (Dashboard or mediacenter, I can only hear it when I try to, and I sit less then 15 feet away from it.)
- digitalfiend, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Just to keep the speculation at a sane level, here is a quote from the article:
"Now keep in mind, it’s not like millions of lines of NEW code had to be written here, with many of the codecs and graphic libraries already in existence."
So they didn't actually have to "write" 4.7 million lines of code specifically for the HD DVD player. Code reuse is big everywhere, this is no exception. - mxcl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The people who are laughing at the 12 lines of code a day quote probably are either poor programmers, or very inexperienced.
But having said that it totally depends. Starting a new project (by myself or with well segmented tasks in the work-group) I could do 2000 on the first day, but this drops exponentially over the week. On my current project I'm bug fixing constantly and prolly change 12 a day. It takes so damn long to figure out why my crappy code is so broken. - cyssero, on 04/18/2009, -2/+6Who said anything about billions?
Edit: davodavo beat me to it. - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Honestly, I think lines of code are a very poor metric of either productivity or functionality. Lines of code can mean anything depending on the language used. If they used OOP, would a class count or something else like that be more meaningful?
In know that in Functional programming, lines of code don't mean much because there is no fundamental identifier for what a line of code is; indentation and line breaks are not language dependent, but convention dependent in many FP languages. In C and Java, lines of code are ended with a semi-colon, so line counts can be done systematically, but this is not so in other languages where the code does not have natural line endings.
Also, when I programmed in C, I know that depending on the programming conventions you used, your procedural code could easily have an extra 6-7 lines which may add clarity and ease of reading, but added no function.
The level of abstraction also matters; 4.7 million lines of assembler code is way different from 4.7 million lines of optimized Scheme, which may compile out to way more than that.
Without any more context, the line count really is very uninformative beyond a vague sense of "that's a hell of a lot". - yasth, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7HD DVD interactive support has XML HTML CSS SMIL ECMAScript, etc. More or less a full web browser, Firefox has over 2.5 million lines of code. Also there has to be software support for AVC and VC-1. Plus software to manage the DRM.
Oh and anyone who measures productivity in lines of code is stupid on an existential level. It is very easy to double lines of code used. Oh and the most efficient days are often the ones where little code gets written because you are integrating a third party module with your software. 12 lines of final product code can make your product able to upload pictures to all the major web photo services, etc. - pixelmixer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Maybe this guy is talking about 12 lines of code per day average... Dont you guys take a little time to plan out what you're going to do? or are 200-300 lines of that 1000 lines of code you write everyday just rewrites of code you wrote yesterday because you didnt write it correctly?
When i personally code, completely depending on what exactly it is I am coding i'll spend a couple days planning out the whole thing, then code one or two sections (probably 200-250 lines), then take a day to re-assess where im at then work from there or re-write it if its not heading in the right direction. So in any average week i'll get anywhere between 200 and 600 lines of code. ( it is important to note, however, that I code in web technologies being mostly Java, PHP, Javascript, Actionscript, etc.. other languages like C would very likely take much more code) - xelloss, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The majority of the noise comes from the DVD drive, but when its Idle, the fans are very load, but Recently I hooked up my fat PS2 for FFXII, and never realized how load that thing was, and it only had 1 fan in it.
- id000001, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5If it is pushing the six thread intensively. Does that means the system will runs at full load while decoding HD-DVD?
Sound like the Xbox 360 cooling fan will on at all time. Not something I'm looking forward to, to be honest with you. - avidlinuxuser, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6It is software decoded. However, the video is still rendered in hardware. It takes advantage of the three PPC units to do the decoding, and let's the GPU do what it does best which is the draw the frames at a steady rate(24 fps).
- blasphemer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Honestly,
I watch movies on my 360 all the time. It doesn't make a lot of noise when watching a DVD. - K111, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You're retarded and don't understand the topic you're chiming in on. =)
- deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"As a programmer I'm struggling to believe the 4.7 million lines of code figure."
That was my reaction as well. With the hardware available inside the 360, the source code required would be -minimal-.
According to the Register:
"ATI's H.264 HD video decoder will be used by Microsoft to allow its Xbox 360 to play HD DVDs, the two companies announced today.
No great surprise there, perhaps - it's well known the Microsoft console has an ATI GPU on board - the R500 - and it's capable of running the same video processing algorithms through its pixel shader pipelines as the company's desktop chips."
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/07/12/ati_ms_xbox_hd-dvd_deal/
Why would MS write a bunch of PPC code to decode HD-DVD's when ATI's hardware is better suited to the task?
So, to me, it seems, this story is completely inaccurate.
/dugg down. - Knoton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight." ~ Bill Gates.
How appropriate. - piper999, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@avidlinuxuser
"they write 326/8(41) lines of code an hour. That is more than reasonable."
Sorry to go on about this but I do this kind of work for a living.
I literally laughed out loud while reading your comment. 42 lines of code an hour for 8 hours every day for months on end? Hahahahahaha. WHY do you feel the need to try to sound like an expert about something you plainly have no clue about? - nrighton, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Kind of a bummer. I don't want to listen to the howling of my 360 as I am watching a movie :(
- netdroid9, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6@rishid: *****, a thousand lines of code a day? A hundred or two, maybe, but a thousand? That's a lot 0.0.
- mianos, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9It's an utterly ***** way to quote a lot of code. It's like saying that the /bin/cat program has 5 million lines of code because it depends on libc, the filesystem code and the kernel. (also typical blog crap, adds no value above the original article http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx)
I wonder how many lines in mplayer and the supporting codecs. It's certainly nowhere near that and it seems to play 1080i perfecty on my ATI card. Maybe I'm missing something? - malkir, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I wonder how many lines of code went into some kind of DRM *****, that will just be cracked by some hacker in under 100 lines.
- Ltgeo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+41000 lines a day... God dam that's bs. There is no ***** way anyone can write that much good/useful code in a day, that is code which isn't horribly buggy. I hope to god your not programming anything that may endanger lives!
- nerditup, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2someone should save this for ten years from now, we will all laugh at how extreme it is
- rufo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Exactly what WiFiSpy said - you can have two video and two audio tracks playing at the exact same time on an HD-DVD player, and you need some way to mix them - the only way you're going to do that is to decode it and then re-encode back into something (since the 360 has no 5.1 analog outputs) - DD5.1 output is easy on the 360, so there you go.
- marnaq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4What we need now is a 150 lines program that cracks it. Someone got DVD Jons Skype ID?
- piper999, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31000 lines is a LOT of code. Bear in mind that we are talking clean, debugged code here.
Obviously there are different kinds of projects and so on but writing 1000 lines of debugged device driver code or video codec code a day is just so far off the scale it isn't worthy of being taken seriously.
The industry standard is (apparently) 75 debugged lines of code a day across all languages and that sounds reasonable to me.
To be honest I'm restraining myself here. NOBODY produces 1000 lines of debugged code a day and it doesn't matter what you are working on. I actually feel embarrassed for anyone claiming this because there are programmers in the real world who read these threads.
Note: white space, comments and generated code (for example MFC) do not count towards a programmers lines of code output per day. Maybe that's where some of the confusion is coming in. - NeoTechni, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Doesn't wii have things like photo viewing, mpg and mp3 playback, and a weather channel?
- rjpaez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I don't konw guys, all I got from that is that playing HD-DVD's will have the Xbox 360 constantly running maxed out. Watching a long movie like LOTR and such, with the 360 constantly running all threads might lead to some heat related hardware problems.
- xinul, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1tl;dr
for someone who has no idea what you are talking about you sure wrote a novel there... quit taking you seriously and gave up after 1.5 paragraphs. - sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Sorry if I'm good at defending myself. And believe me, I restrained myself.
Also, don't fall back into the 'you're just an elitist' nonsense. Like I have at least implied over and over - there ARE real programmers reading this who have experience in the real world and it doesn't make those people 'elite', just better informed."
I wasn't so much disagreeing with what you said, I just don't think you're being very open minded to the wildly different types of programming projects there. You seem to be assuming that everyone's experience is the same as your own where a few dozens of lines of code a day are the norm. This is a fine amount of code depending on what you're working on. However I've seen many "crunch" situations where you wouldn't hold a job long if that's all you produced. I don't disagree with your experience, but if you're implying that anyone who says they could produce 1000 lines of good code in one day is a "moron" and a "*****" then you are 100% dead wrong. In most cases it doesn't happen, but it DOES happen.
On top of that, as stated, your original comment indicates that you didn't read the article. This entire thread is off-topic. -
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