What is Digg?209 Comments
- Kazimieras, on 10/12/2007, -32/+108I think this claim is out in left field... it could be done on a smaller disc... if they knew how to properly code. I remember this one live arcade developer talking how they took a game that had over 2 gigs of textures and turned it into a 50 meg game... how? They used the muscle of the box to make procedural textures rather than just save crap. If the ps3 is as powerful as it claims, it should be able to easily handle that... so like I said before, BAD CODING.
Also his claims about hddvd are incorrect and irrelevant. The 360 does not use hddvd, nor will it ever use it. - Rayonic, on 10/12/2007, -5/+71"Bad Coding"? That's a little harsh. They probably just have a bunch of 1080p MPEG2-encoded videos on the disc. 22gb is way too much for the game alone. Heck, Oblivion didn't even hit 4gb.
I'm sure they're doing all they can to compress the textures. Even with all the storage in the world, you still have to worry about load times. (A 2x Blu-Ray is 9.0 mb/sec, while a 12x DVD is 16.0 mb/sec. They're already at a disadvantage, so they'll be trying for the best data compression possible.) - BBX25, on 10/12/2007, -10/+63That is one quality argument. I mean, why try and disprove the "Bad Code" theory when you could just insult and flame the opposing party instead; using "facts" as opinions. You sure showed me, Themacx. You showed me AND my mother.
This is merely uncompressed code; Oblivion was the exact same way. It wasn't 4.5 GB in beta stages; I'm almost sure the audio in that game exceeded that pre-compression. It pretty much goes for every game; but in this case, Blu Ray allows for developers to be lazier when it comes to compressing their games, and when written in a certain way, can deceive people into thinking they're getting 5x bigger a game. The amount of space on a medium does not limit the graphical prowess of your games.
So, you can go wait for your ~22GB game to load on that slow-ass 2x Blu Ray drive, while we'll be playing Gears of War come Christmas. :) - isewise, on 10/12/2007, -6/+44While you are partly right about the bad coding, the PS3 is new and as developers get used to coding on it, the file sizes will drop. The developers just need more time with the console to learn all the tricks and techniques they can use to shrink down the file size. Also its not know if the developers are caching any info on the HDD, so that could be another factor. And I would hope Resistance is a big expansive game being that it is 22GB in size.
Here is an article about Xbox file sizes on DVD 9
http://www.gamesfirst.com/index.php?id=1132 - tomi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+40Well, good news for Sony. Far less pirates for them, I don't think anyone wants to download 22GB, unless they're really desperate...
- walterd93, on 10/12/2007, -6/+38@themacx
Um, the psp has had like 20 firmware updates since last year... - kefs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+38wow.. @themacx.. i think i just lost a few IQ points reading that...
- cpc197c, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29yes, but he's referring to games using the HD-DVD addon. The addon will not be used for games, only specifically for videos.
- ReCkLeSsX, on 10/12/2007, -16/+41Why are some of you scared that Blu-Ray can be beneficial for some games?
- Nobi-Wan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24For some odd reason I have a feeling Sony wants them to make the game as large as possible. An FPS using up almost six times the amount of space as Oblivion? Sounds like marketing hype just so Sony can say, "See! Blu-ray games are huge and need all that space, it isn't just for movies!"
Games have increased in size in small increments over the years. It seems a little strange that we go from using 2-4 gigs and then all the sudden we jump to 22 gigs. Sounds like a lot of the "game" is going to be uncompressed 1080p movies. - Smwbigboss, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Somebody on another article also said that they didn't compress any of the files.
- GodsHand, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28They are storing textures uncompressed, giving them an excuse to say it's not possible on HD-DVD, a competing format. Insomniac is in bed with Sony.
- szelij, on 10/12/2007, -11/+32Agreed. Its probably a combination of bad code+useless pretty movies. Has anyone ever noticed that lately the games has been balooning in size? There used to be 700mb for a game...that went up to 1.4gigs and then 2.7gigs until finally we hit 4gigs with oblivion..
- P5ycHo, on 10/12/2007, -14/+34So, you've deducted from the article that they use bad code? That's a pretty amazing analysis considering you never saw the actual code. Pherhaps they just don't 'need' to compress video & images. Why would you when you have that much space?
The only concern I have is how fast can the PS3 get 'em off the disc.... - RichPowers, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18You know, I've never really thought of that: with the advent of huge 500GB hard drives (soon 1TB HDs), what if devs intentionally make their games HUGE so fewer people would take the time to pirate them? Surely network speeds haven't kept up with the advances in HD storage capacity...
- Paullenation, on 10/12/2007, -39/+54Forgot to note: I found this story through evilavatar.com's blog
- maoa, on 10/12/2007, -8/+23Agreed, this claim is just plain idiocy. When you can get two hours of perceived-dvd-quality video and audio compressed to 700mb, you'd have to have a game *full* of cutscenes to warrant even a quarter of that.
Yes, you could fill the space using textures and sacd-quality audio, but that's wasteful in the extreme. The PS3 has easily enough power to procedurally create any textures they're going to want, they just can't be skilled enough to do the algorithms.
Case #1. I'm currently doing graphics for a strategy game (Hamwars). For this game we procedurally generate a universe with millions of planets, each one with its own civilisations and cultures, building and unit styles. I am the only artist on this project. I create a texture, document how I do it, and the programmers figure out how to recreate it procedurally, creating infinite variants and "tween" styles as they do it.
Case #2. http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger . Beautiful FPS in a 96kb executable.
You can never claim to *need* 22gb unless the game has three months of single player storyline complete with liberal cutscenes. These guys are just getting lazy and can't code properly. - jjk5, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18AFAIK, the HD-DVD peripheral is for watching movies only.
- DirtyH, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Microsoft Flight Simulator X comes on 2 DVDs and will need 14 gigabyte of diskspace.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Yes. G.I. Joe fired the blue while Cobra fired the red. Duh.
- pksynths, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20I remember these 22GB games....back in the day they were called full motion video games (FMV for short) you watch a 5 minute video and press one button to watch another 5 minute video. They were supposed to be the best in the line because they came on 5 CDs. Well they sucked. A LOT! Give me game play over graphics any day.
Also this has to be uncompressed because no way a developer can create 22GBs of content unless they've been working on this game for 22.5 years and by this time it's obsolete. - staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Any choice to go against "procedural textures " for everything is a design choice. It works beautiful for certain textures but it does relenquish a degree of control in whatever texture your working with. Chances are if you are working with a creature that has a whole bunch of scars with different depths you are doing every texture for that creature. Procedural textures are a great advance in design but it isn't the end all be all of deving the art for a game.
- dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15I once downloaded a freeware text editor called IronClad where the main exe was a whopping 1.8mb. I decided to check it out and found a 1.6mb full screen bitmap of the grim reaper riding on a horse. It was promptly removed from the next version.
A lot of things are larger than they need to be. I'm sure the problem is lack of proper compression. You can fit 30 or so near dvd quality movies in 22gb. I wouldn't be surprised if the levels took a long time to load. - BruceAnderson, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19"Are DVDs going out of style quicker than we think?"
What, because of ONE game? For a platform that's gonna cost $600? - Smwbigboss, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16And you thought loading times were bad on the PS2...
- Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Let's see if I can translate this thread for those people who are new to Digg...
It's a Sony/PS3 game -- being released on Blu-Ray -- so it must be bad code, bloated textures, incompetent programmers, and a sucky game.
If it was a Nintendo game, however, it would be "revolutionary", "stunning", "a triumph", "innovative", and "ground breaking".
Insomniac has created some of the best games released for ANY console. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt rather than just bashing them because they were bought by Sony.
I, for one, can't wait to see this game in action -- then I'll decide if it sucks or not. - Taikun, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Probably the same thing that happened around the time when downloading CDs of games was becoming popular, but not everyone had a high speed connection. The crackers often stripped the game of unrequired features (opening videos, extra disk content, etc) and even resampled audio files to keep the size down. A recent example of this was Gran Turismo 4. The game was just slightly over 5 GB in size, eliminating the ability to copy if one did not have a dual layer burner. A cracker resampled some in game videos and audio to allow a single layer disk to be used.
As game sizes go up, pirates will just find ways to clean up the game developers unwillingness to compress data to keep them to a managable size. (at least until we all have fiber). - r3tex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I don't know about you but here in Sweden most people can download a 22Gb disk in about a day....
No problems for me ^_^ go PS3! - bbear, on 10/12/2007, -16/+26And Oblivion fits on 1 DVD. This guy is a dumbass who forgot to mention his game is 2 GB of data and 20GB of uncompressed MPEG video.
- DoctorNo, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19>>And Oblivion fits on 1 DVD. This guy is a dumbass who forgot to mention his game is 2 GB of data and 20GB of uncompressed MPEG video.
While Oblivion has a VERY large game world to play in, the world itself is pretty redundant and you can see how they fit it in DVD9. You run out of new enemies to fight at around level 20 (all enemies only become scaled with bandits with better armor), and there are only a few variations of weapons and armor (really not much more after Daedric and Glass). The world itself is just a map that uses the same textures and models over and over again.
Great game, but its no mystery why the game fits on one DVD. - riumplus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11I call bad compression. Myst IV: Revelation required 2 DVD9 discs, but that was because they carried audio and video data for all languages at once on those DVDs (Not to mention there's an awfully large amount of animated movies in that game).
3D models, textures and binary code all compress very well. Unless if you're deciding to store it uncompressed or you're packing it with a LOT of 1080p video, there's no real reason for a 3d game to be larger than DVD9. If it requires more than that for a 3d game, it had better be absolutely HUGE with extremely high-quality models and textures. - BleedingHollow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Quality>Size...
- ReCkLeSsX, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17Sadly, people have brainwashed themselves into thinking more storage for games is bad.
=/ - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"They are storing textures uncompressed, giving them an excuse to say it's not possible on HD-DVD, a competing format. Insomniac is in bed with Sony."
HD-DVD can do 30GB on two layers (though I'm not sure when those drives will hit the market) and Microsoft isn't going to use HD-DVD for games, anyway. That's a moot point.
Still, they'd have to be ***** crazy to store everything uncompressed... since the speed of the PS3's drive is either significantly slower or *slightly* faster than (depending on whether or not they can mass produce a 4x drive in time for the PS3 launch) the Xbox 360's DVD drive. The load times, which people often complain about with much smaller DVD-based games, would become astronomical if you multiplied the size of the data without matching it with a faster drive. At the very *least* they would have to do some form of lossless compression. I'm betting this isn't anywhere *close* to the final size. - iceblademan, on 11/12/2007, -2/+10Actually, I saw an interview on this guy a couple weeks back.
The reason the disk is to huge is because EVERY version of the game (every language and region specific data) can be fit onto one disk. This is MUCH more cost effective than shipping by region, and lowers their opportunity cost exponentially. You can make fun of blu-ray all you want, but in reality, a business model based around it makes much more sense than making 902904823904823094 Hd-Dvd's for every language.
I think people should finally start seeing past their noses and take their tongues out of their cheek. Blu-ray has arrived. - DoctorNo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Looks fine to me. . .
latest screenshots:
http://i.i.com.com/cnet.g2/images/2006/201/928399_20060721_screen001.jpg
http://i.i.com.com/cnet.g2/images/2006/152/reviews/928399_20060602_screen001.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/719/719896/resistance-fall-of-man-20060720095326731.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/81/221129393_65d8a7ff78_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/78/221129382_53ad54a396_b.jpg - Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Once again, never let facts get in the way of a good argument...
Insomniac didn't do either of those games. They sold the license to Spiro long before those games were made.
http://www.insomniacgames.com/about.html - MCHampster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I love reading people who use terms like "uncompressed MPEG video." Or talk about uncompressed video in general. While I am guessing that most of the space that they're using is video, I'll tell you right now that it is NOT uncompressed. Completely uncompressed video would fill a Blue Ray disc faster than you think. All MPEG video is compressed in some manner by definition.
- Xiata, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14More storage with slower reading speed is the problem. If blu-ray had a read speed that was competitive with DVDs we wouldn't mind. This is not the case though. 2x Blu-ray vs 12x DVD-rom is a big difference in speed. I'd rather play the swap-to-next-dvd game than have a slower read speed.
Oh yeah, I haven't seen anyone mention this... How much damage will these blu-ray disks take before they start to skip? I noticed on some dvds a hairline scratch will make it unplayable while on a normal cd it will continue reading like nothing was there. Since they will be jamming more data in the same area, I figure blu-rays will be even more sensitive to damage. I really hope they make the surface of blu-rays tough as hell, otherwise we're going to have a lot of pissed off buyers. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10why couldnt this be done on PC? we've had 4 cd's before, we can handle 4 dvds!
- mushoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I don't know, but that green dude in the article looks like one of the moblins from Die By the Sword, that's gotta count for something.
- estvir, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10themacx: So, you're blaming Microsoft for GAME DEVELOPERS patching THEIR GAMES ? Good job buddy.
Oh, and you've been wrong as much [if not more] than others in here, way to go.
Wow, Madden has bugs, yay, let's [once again] blame Microsoft though it's the fault of the developers. Find a freaking clue. - shtonkalot, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Am I missing something here?
Why is everyone buring Paullenation's comment citing his source?
I appreciated it anyway. Cheers Paullenation. - Sigvard, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13"Why not use 22gb? Or even more? Why bother compressing images, why bother having low quality video?"
Loading. - ZenFu, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Methinks bloatware. Insomniac's obviously not taking into account any form of compression to make their game appear bigger than it should be. Hell, Halo 2 was graphically superb and it only weighed in at 2-3gbs.
EDIT: Just saw godshand's comment and i'm digging it. - jimbobiii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Mueller: Insomniac is a 2nd party Sony developer. Resistance: Fall of Man was NEVER on the 360.
- gincarnated, on 10/12/2007, -9/+15This game is probably featuring uncompressed lossless audio and I can't wait to hear what it sounds like.
Audio is one of the most important aspect of movies or a game because you really feel immersed into it. That is probably the thing i'm happiest about with Blu-Ray. - j_bellone, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Earth to *****: Blu-Ray drives are not rated on the same time scale as CD/DVD drives.
Thank you. - Leo55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@ GT35R
We ain't ***** developers but we are gamers!
It looks like a way to get hype considering it is a exclusive ps3 game.
It is not that 22gb is bad or anything but we have barely reached 6gb.
compressed or not compressed, 20gb or 4.5gb, it boils down to gameplay.
on the sidenote : WTF is MTV doing with gaming? Music : Games? - yoda133113, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6FTA - "We're going to fit more on a Blu-Ray disc than you could on an HD DVD," he said, referring to the competing format, which in its most basic discs can't hold more than 15 GB"
If they are gonna say something, please make it true, while the basic discs (single layer) can only hold 15, HD discs can hold more, up to 30, and besides, why does it matter, MS has said that games will only come out on DVD (they might change their mind later however).
Also FTA - "While the music and vocals in "Resistance" take up only about 1 Gigabyte of disc space, graphics, level data and programming code occupy most of the remaining 21."
There goes the idea that the 22 gigs is all uncompressed audio, that doesn't mean that 21 gigs is all needed. -
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