What is Digg?100 Comments
- schroeder, on 10/12/2007, -7/+92If console companies allowed me to upgrade my hard drives, dashboards, codecs, have region-free hardware and so on, I honestly wouldn't be interested in a mod chip solely for copying games. I think a lot of people want reasonable control over their devices without having to be nickel-and-dimed or overcharged for proprietary add-ons.
- IdanE, on 10/12/2007, -7/+83Let me say this right off the bat - I was finally able to order a Wii and the 1st thing I did was order the WiiKey - a Wii modchip.
Now that that's out of the way, let me share some insights into this thing:
1. Nintendo is right - modchips ARE dangerous for the Wii - there have been reported cases of PAL Wiis bricking (suffering from an irreparable error causing the machine to no longer work) due to an update stored on the NTSC (US) version of Super Paper Mario - so there is a real risk involved in using a version of SW not meant for your specific system, and Nintendo don't (and shouldn't) check what type of system you're using, since they explicitly tell you not to do that.
2. Opening up an electronic device almost ALWAYS voids your warranty.
3. Soldering stuff in the Wii can go wrong. It sucks but it's true nonetheless. And it's a risk not everyone would like to take.
4. Yes, Nintendo loses money due to every modchip in circulation. When you have a mod, you won't buy games. With today's download speeds, you won't even rent them in order to copy them, or even buy a fake DVD - you'll just download it (quite effortlessly, I might add) and dump it to a DVD, meaning less sales.
5. In some countries, if you can prove that the only use of a device is illegal, you can charge the user (though not always the seller) with "intent to commit a crime" - if I buy an unregistered gun and AP rounds, odds are, I'm not just planning to hang it on the wall. Same goes for these (with a world of difference, of course).
Overall, Nintendo is right to hate these devices - They're bad for business. The PS1 and PS2 were plagued by mods, and the XBox took it to a whole new level, but that was mostly due to amazing homebrew apps like XBMC. After the paper mario incident, which I assure you cost them several hours of tech support, and several disgruntled customers, they simply said "do this and you might be shooting yourself in the leg, and if you do, don't expect us to help you get to the hospital". - hanapbuhay, on 10/12/2007, -14/+88Nintendo, drop the regional encoding.
- WhereAmI, on 10/12/2007, -16/+78Like thats your only reason.
- BritishGolgo13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+53Are you debating with yourself?
- GawtMilk, on 10/12/2007, -9/+55im in ur internet exploitin ur tired memez
- spokenrope, on 10/12/2007, -3/+45Mod chips? Hmm...
BRB. I'm gonna go google "Nintendo mod chip" and see what I find. Thanks, Nintendo! - nights0223, on 10/12/2007, -1/+35At least he used the reply button.
- laserblazer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34Somebody is a few blocks short of a save file.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+37Microsoft: 'We warn you against pirating Windows'
Does this really work? - overbyte, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20i'm afraid i have to agree - the wii has lost momentum in terms of available software
but it's the same thing that happened to the 360, the psp (for an extended period), the ds and the ps3.... scratch the ps3 - that never started with anything.
It's like being with a new girlfriend - you start off putting all the best moves you can think of, there's a bit of a drought while your old moves get a bit stale and then you start to learn a bit more about each other and then you start making new moves that are a million times better than your old ones.
that's my metaphor and i'm sticking to it... - sw1ft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17The ksponge vs. ksponge debate above was probably one of the weirdest things I've ever seen on digg.
- kent1146, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19@jlewicki:
From what I understand, the technical aspect has to do with NTSC/PAL encoding. But the main reason for regional encoding are licensing agreements and different price points across different markets... a game may cost $50 in the US, but cost $30 in Asia. Why would you buy the $50 game when you could import the game for $30+$10 shipping? It screws the US retailers, and the profits from the US market. - NSMike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16...the hell?
- jlewicki, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19what is the purpose of region coding? a lot of electornic devices have it. would someone please link an argument either for or against please?
- sid0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16@MisterFlaut:
See? Nintendo can, and will, void your warranty if you install a mod chip. You have a problem with that? - Pirkel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15What online network?
- jhurliman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12@heycraisins: That's not exactly how End User License Agreements work. It is an agreement between you and Nintendo which says they will provide you with certain services (perhaps a warranty, access to online gaming, a reasonable guarantee that future upgrades to the console will be compatible with your system, etc) and you have to uphold your end of the bargain by not dropping it off a roof, opening your console, or using any third party modifications. If you violate the EULA it is not grounds for a civil or criminal charge, it just means you have violated the agreement and Nintendo is no longer obligated to provide you with anything.
Now some countries have laws that either explicitly ban mod chips or ban modifications that can be proven to be used primarily or exclusively for copyright infringement, which would run you afoul of civil or criminal charges. That's a whole separate entity from the EULA though. - geocar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13@heycraisins
It's perfectly legal to modify your console, and Nintendo knows this. They went to court themselves in Galoob v. Nintendo, 780 F. Supp 1283 (N.D. Cal. 1991), and _lost_.
Furthermore, EULA's are not legally binding. In Vault v. Quaid, 847 F.2d 255 (5th Cir. 1988), "shrinkwrap licenses" are unenforceable and unconstitutional.
So no, from a legal standpoint, Nintendo is not right, and neither are you.
Nintendo doesn't have to provide you a warranty in most places, and those that they do, they usually don't have to mention it. That's right, that warranty is a goodwill gesture - maybe designed to give them good press, or maybe because they like their customers. - overbyte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7i have one :)
- dpmcalli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Nintendo, drop the regional encoding."
Couldn't agree more. If you don't live in Europe you may not know just how much we get raped. I started looking into Wii mod chips when I saw the release date for Super Paper Mario. November! What a joke, especially when we really need more killer titles for the Wii right now. - slipfish, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Not likely.
Modding for the gaming industry = New game under old/existing engine usually not sold for profit.
Modding for the console industry = Device created to circumvent the rules of the system, be it region encoding or copyright protection. These devices are sold for profit. - dimension128, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@heycraisins
"When you buy and use the console, you're legally agreeing to the EULA"
? What eula? Was It on the door when I walked into the store? Nope.
Was It at the counter when I was handing the cashier the money? Nope.
On the box? Nope.
Did I sign anything before, during, or after I purchased it? Nope.
If you are talking about the crap that is INSIDE the box, that doesn't mean squat. I was only able to read that AFTER I purchased the item and AFTER I opened the box. Besides the fact that I now OWN this item, there is no law, regulation or anything that says I even HAVE to read all of the paperwork that is packaged with an item before I use said item. And even if I did decide to read it, I did not agree to it. I don't care what it says, "By standing on one leg and barking like a dog, you are agreeing to the terms...." Ill be on that leg and barking all day if I want to, and it has nothing to do with that worthless paper.
With that said though, where they really have you is the eula for WiiConnect24. - Ahnteis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Modding in PC games doesn't refer to removing the copy protection.
- knodi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Well Nintendo was dumb, they had the same 2 backdoors on the Wii as they did on Gamecube. Should have fixed it before launching the Wii.
- sid0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The thing that probably prompted this was Super Paper Mario (NTSC) bricking some European Wiis.
- theblooms, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I got lucky and bought my, er, um, COUGH-COUGH, my kids', Wii back in November. But it wasn't hooked up until Christmas. God, it sucked sitting there in my shed, knowing it wanted to be played!
- Optimistic, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Dear Nintendo,
Why can't I use a mod-chip to play imports? Is it because you expect us Europeans to pay up to 60 euro (80 USD) for new games while you sell the same thing in the States for 50?
No, it couldn't be that. Right?
Signed,
A European Customer who is still waiting for Trauma Center and Super Paper Mario - throwingks, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@MisterFlaut:
Any mod to your console can void your warranty. And, yes with open source chips, being the most practical, teenagers do make them in their basement.
http://wiki.nintendo-scene.com/index.php?title=Wii_modchips - Jacobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Modding your console just to play pirated games is pretty lame if you ask me.
But as soon as something like XBMC becomes available that will quadriple the usefulness of your console - it all becomes worth it. - memsom, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@geocar
Ah, no. In Europe we get a warranty by law. One year, though it might be, the OEM has to honour it. - memsom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5No, it's because as many have stated, Nintendo choose to put inline updates on some games. With the mentioned game - Susper Paper Mario in mind, this actually happened. They put an NTSC only update on the dic and this then bricked a bunchof modchipped PAL based consoles. So DOH! Yeah, go on, kill your console because you're imaptient and can't wait a few extra months.
- ScarlemNocturne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@gxcdesign
"you couldn't mod a GameCube w/o a 8cm dvd-r"
lulz.
You're posting in a modding thread and you know nothing about modding. gg, gg indeed.
gb2/NDS_Flash_Cart_Thinking_You_Are_A_Modder/ - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Does installing a wii modchip screw with your ability to take the Wii online? As MS did with the original xbox, does Nintendo lock you out of their online network if they detect a chip in your system?
- Peynis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3giving out a press release about Wii modchips was the dumbest thing Nintendo could do...I guess that around 98% of all Wii owners didn't even know it was possible to mod their Wii...just like most people never knew you could play backups and imports on a Dreamcast without any modification, or that it's possible to play homebrew and backups on a PSP (without modification in most cases)
as soon as people know about modchips/exploits, they'll start modding their consoles and playing pirated games...the cheaper and easier it gets, the more people will do it...Wii modchips already are very easy to install (5 soldering points, ANYONE could do this) and pretty damn cheap: I got my Wii modded for 25€ .. - geocar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@MisterFlaut:
Unfortunately the owner of the WII does _not_ have the right to call for technical support. They don't even have a warranty right in most states, in most countries. Nintendo lets you call them- maybe as goodwill- maybe to avoid bad press, but certainly not because they _have to_, because the fact is that they don't.
Installing a modchip means that you're rejecting that goodwill. It means that you're accepting a level of responsibility that most people just aren't willing to accept. Defeating region coding and the ability to download games (homebrew and commercial) is pretty tempting, but given the number of people who called Nintendo after bricking their wii with a "professional modchip", I'd say that those people weren't adequately informed. - Cyber_Akuma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There is no law. The EULA is an agreement, not a legally binding contract.
The thing basically says you don't own it, despite that you paid $$$ for it. That you only own a license to use it. That they can do whatever they want to your system and if they screw it up as a result, oh well, not their fault. You cannot attempt to hack/reverse-engineer any part of it. That they can change the terms of the contract at any time without even telling you.
And in the terms of software, you have no way of knowing there was a contract before purchase, you cannot return the purchase if you disagree because almost no stores accept cash returns on opened software anymore, and you cannot use the software without agreeing.
The thing is full of confusing impossible to understand legaliese, and all this is agreed on when you click the "I Agree" button.
There is a reason this thing has not stood up in court many times. - Cyber_Akuma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Nintendo: "Oh *****, we didn't even think to offer an opt-out on the update or even include a very basic check to make sure its trying to update the right system. Lets side-step this issue and come out looking like the good guys by blaming the people with modded systems. We can just include some FUD about how they only have illegal uses and destroy consoles and blame the "thieving pirates" that everybody hates and we will be just fine."
- mykos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't think I like this mentality that they still own the hardware I bought.
Let's say I buy a riding mower. If the Toro company told me I could only use it in MY yard, and it could only be used to mow grass and not shovel snow, I'd tell them to shove it, even if they managed to lobby congress to pass a Dual Mower Copyright Act or something. I don't know how a law could get passed that says you don't own that which you buy. - xiojqwnko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ gxcdesign
Research. - STKD, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Nintendo fairly new to the online scene?
You may want to check up on that...
The NES had a modem. The GameBoy had a modem. The SNES had a modem. The N64 had online access via the 64DD. As did the Gamecube. - philipz78, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If Super Paper Mario is indeed bricking systems that weren't supposed to play it, Nintendo shouldn't be fixing those systems. That's basically what they are saying.
Actually, don't be surprised if Nintendo puts an update in EVERY major first party release from now on, just to brick non-NTSC systems. - furude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ever heard of the GP2X?
- djSyndrome, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They never promised to lower the prices of Wii games. They did state that they wouldn't be hitting the standard 'next-gen' price point in the US ($60).
- straxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Cyber_Akuma
Um... Just a wild guess, but maybe because they expected the region coding to block it?
Look, I'm not saying it's wrong or even illegal to mod your console. In most cases it isn't, and I've certainly modded more than my fair share of consoles. (I also have a *huge* legit game collection - so don't mod me down thinking I'm a game pirate) But any time you mod a system to work in a way the manufacturer didn't intend, this is the risk you are taking. And in this new generation of online and firmware updateable consoles, it's a bigger risk than ever. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11Hahaha, I like how they think they can tell us what we can and cannot do with our own consoles.
If I wanna mod the console that I paid money for, then I'm gonna do it.
My console, my choice.
Unless, of course, you wanna refund my money. - dadood, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I cant wait for WiiMC!
- Emilio8605, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You can play backups on a normal Dreamcast? *goes back in time and gets Dreamcast*
...
*goes forward in time when PS2 is released* - jonshipman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There is a check - it's called if it's not the correct Wii the disk won't work. The mod chip removes this limitation and therefore the check.
- Cyber_Akuma, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3sid0:
To be fair though, while the modchip is at fault too, isnt this slightly Nintendo's fault as well?
1. From what I have heard, the game gives no warning that it is going to update the system. People claimed "I put in the game, entered the disk channel, and saw a message that my Wii is getting updated." I am not really a fan of having firmware/bios updates performed on a system I own with no warning or "OK" button to confirm.
2. Why does the game just assume it's the correct Wii and update anyway? Would it have been that hard to include a check to make sure?
Yes, the user is at fault for modifying a system beyond what the manufacturer wanted and running out of region software that was not designed to run on a system of that region, but I feel the software was rather recklessly designed as well. It does not confirm or warn you that it is going to perform an update, nor does it even check if the system it's trying to update is the correct one. One could argue that not having a region lock would have prevented this mess, since if Nintendo knew there was a good chance of people in PAL regions playing a US game they woudlent have been so quick to force an update. -
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