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Metal Gear Solid 4 Delayed

deeko.com — Seems some gamestop and eb customers are receiving emails that the game has been delayed until March of 2008.

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  • SfOwnsLa, on 10/11/2007, -4/+63Gamestop decides on a release date by throwing darts. Hell Gamestop last month had FFXIII dated for the fall.
    • diggthiscrap, on 10/11/2007, -3/+21The game retailers make money off non-refundable pre-orders. It could be compared to a scam, really and yes, they do throw darts at a board. They can also be guilty of reading release date rumors and using that energy to set dates for the supposed release of a new game. They know rabid fanboys will flock to their stores with Cheetos-stained fists full of cash ready to pay extra for a game they will play for two weeks and shelve until the next hit comes out.
    • DBiz, on 10/11/2007, -32/+45I know this is going to start a fanboy war, but I'm saying this as an owner of all three next gen consoles...

      Maybe a delay in lieu of a 360 version? Digg me down if you must, I'm just throwing it out there.
    • icebrand, on 10/11/2007, -4/+35Why do cheetos get branded as a nerd snack? Is it that all geeks eat cheetos or all people who regularly get cheetos are geeks? Or do people actually see cheetos stained geeks out in the wild? Or does that stain show up more often than others? I'm not offended by it as I don't regularly ingest cheetos, but it seems to have some kind of image around it now.
    • Lixie, on 10/11/2007, -2/+29Kojima is reworking the control scheme since he got a crazy idea in his head that convoluted controls (R1+L1+Square) just to fire the damn gun accurately weren't next-gen.
    • iRoy, on 10/11/2007, -23/+16If Hideo himself said that his masterpiece will never be possible on a 360 I think it's safe to say that there is no chance of this game coming out for 360.
    • MatttK, on 10/11/2007, -3/+16Pre-orders are refundable. I've cancelled and got my money back for pre-orders before...
    • mercatfat, on 10/11/2007, -10/+2they only make money on preorders if you forget to pick up the game after they call you several times.

      duh.

      also, you get free stuff that may or may not suck.
    • unreg, on 10/11/2007, -16/+2They've chipped in to help Apple with Leopard
    • DCstewieG, on 10/11/2007, -0/+15@mercatfat

      They CAN make money on pre-orders because they have that money to invest until the game finally comes out.
    • yournamehere, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8mercatfat:
      you forget they take your money and put it into their accounts
    • c0ldevil, on 10/11/2007, -7/+17@DBiz

      MGS4 is *NOT* coming to Xbox 360. Kojima himself has said that quite clearly: http://kotaku.com/gaming/go307/feature-talkin-metal-gear-with-hideo-kojima-248695.php
    • thatsmyaibo, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4"The game retailers make money off non-refundable pre-orders."

      That's great and all, but these retailers allow for refunds if the game is not picked up. I used to manage a Gamestop and it's against the law to keep that money if the game isn't picked up. It's a deposit, not a fee.
    • moogle516, on 10/11/2007, -2/+0thatsmyaibo tell that to the dicks at EB I used to shop at (note used to as I stopped) I plunked down 10 dollars for splinter cell, they said they call me when it comes out. Next time I check they say its been out for 2 weeks already ?! and I could not get my 10 dollar pre-order money back at all, even the manager said that . I told them to go ***** themselves and I would NEVER shop there again (they're losing alot , since I bought two games there every month) and I never did shop there again.
    • HBNDonut, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Anytime I pre-order a game, the amount I pre-payed is like an installment towards the actual purchase.
    • CanadianGeese, on 10/11/2007, -4/+3@colddevil

      I am so sick of Sony fanboys stating that Kojima himself said MGS4 will never come to the 360.

      No one on Digg (not a single one of you) can produce a quote where he says this. The article you referenced stated,

      "Pity. So, Devil May Cry 4, going multiplatform. Thoughts? Comments? "I think it's up to each project, and the individual producer", he says. "If they want to take it multiplatform, they will". I'm going somewhere with this question, and he knows exactly where that is...

      "But like I said, MGS4 is aimed for the movie theatre, it's aimed for the PS3, so the game's scenario and graphics need this theatre-type hardware. It's when a producer has a game that can work on the 'DVD level' that a game will go multiplatform", he says,"

      I do see where he says the game is aimed at a movie theatre experience, while comparing the PS3 to a movie experience, but he never says "it will never come out on the 360". Actually, don't all movies end up on DVD (aka 360) anyways?

      I challenge any single one of you to produce an actual quote where Kojima or Konami clearly states that it will never come to the 360. Dancing around the question does not count. If someone can produce this quote, I'll post that the PS3 is the best system ever and never post on Digg ever again.
    • johnnyboy232, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0"Kojima told Official Xbox Magazine that he feels the Metal Gear series is "made for for PlayStation platform." While his development studio, Kojima Productions, is working on Xbox 360 titles, these will be all-new games that are set outside of Metal Gear -- that's according to Computer and Video Games magazine." -http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=55468
  • jimbojim, on 10/11/2007, -7/+26Damn that sucks... with Final Fantasy and MGS4 both coming in 2008, all of a sudden the Fall 07 lineup is looking pretty dull, with the exception of GTA IV.

    And yeah ebgames probably isn't the best place to confirm a release date, but I don't think I've ever seen ebgames show a release date that was late... if anything, they usually say it's coming out too soon so they can get your preorder money as fast as possible.
    • nreynolds, on 10/11/2007, -13/+21well, we're still supposed to get Heavenly Sword, Lair, Warhawk, Ratchet and Clank and Home sometime around September. And "First-person shooter Killzone, too, should surface in September" according to semi-official Sony blog threespeech.com
    • diggthiscrap, on 10/11/2007, -22/+15Killzone will be bundled with Duke Nukem Forever...on the Phantom :)
    • StingerMS, on 10/11/2007, -29/+48The Fall '07 lineup looks great for the 360. I can't help you bought the wrong system. :P
    • diggthiscrap, on 10/11/2007, -33/+16@ StingerMS

      The "wrong system", as am American, he is free to buy whatever he well pleases. Its one thing to like the 360, but putting others down for buying a different system is simply childish. When you grow up, you will understand as a consumer you are exercising a right to choose.
    • omatsei, on 10/11/2007, -14/+24@diggthiscrap: God, overly sensitive much? The point was that the PS3 doesn't have much at all coming out this year compared to the 360... and he's right. The 360 2007 lineup is looking great, while the PS3 could rightly be considered anemic. I'll put money up right now that Heavenly Sword and R&C won't ship this year.
    • Mamesj, on 10/11/2007, -14/+4@omatsei: Okay, what's your paypal address...lets put money on this. The PS3 line up this year is looking as good the 360s line up for its first year as well. Of course, that comment is going to prompt some "Gears of War is the best game ever" comments. I have a 360, I've played the hell out of it online, it's pretty, but it's old.
    • emjaymj, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4@diggthiscrap

      As an American, you have the choice between eating a plate of feces or a nice filet mignon. Doesn't mean the filet mignon is any less of a right choice.

      Your freedom gives you the ability to make wrong choices, it doesn't make everything the "right" choice, and while your freedoms protect your ability to make these choices, they do not protect you from others' freedom to scrutinize them.
    • ReCkLeSsX, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3omatsei:

      I don't know about Heavenly Sword, but I do not think Insomniac Games is going to miss fall '07 with Rachet and Clank.

      I think both consoles have a great Fall line-up. I don't see why we have to categorize one as being better. It's all about opinion. Personally, Halo 3 is a game I'm itching to play, but I can't help to get excited for games like Warhawk or LittleBigPlanet.
    • diggthiscrap, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1@ omatsei

      No, he did not state the argument as clearly as you did. Here are his exact words:

      "The Fall '07 lineup looks great for the 360. I can't help you bought the wrong system"

      Are you defending that? He could have stated his argument simply with "The Fall '07 lineup looks great for the 360." His next sentence is clearly trolling. I do appreciate how you got dugg up for not even referencing his original post :)
  • Bodhesatva, on 10/11/2007, -16/+32Wow, PS3 is hurting. Not only has it lost several important exclusive franchises (Devil May Cry, Grand Theft Auto), but the ones it has left won't release games for it for at least a year past its birth. The system is doing poorly, and needs a shot in the arm: now there's just nothing on the horizon that looks to help much.
    • slimthps, on 10/11/2007, -17/+5Have you heard of Playstation Home?
    • Thorlord, on 10/11/2007, -7/+16Playstation Home is not a solution, it is something to distract gamers enough so that they dont bitch too much before some actually interesting games come out.

      you don't replace actual games and content with a Second Life clone.
    • slimthps, on 10/11/2007, -5/+2He said there's "nothing on the horizon that looks to help much". I'm pretty sure Playstation Home, and everything else that it will bring to the new Playstation Network will help greatly.
  • Itazura, on 10/11/2007, -3/+37Titled should be "Metal Gear Solid 4 Delayed According to Gamestop" there is no official delay from anything, and the last place on earth someone should look for a reliable date is Gamestop.
    • mrFREEZE, on 10/11/2007, -14/+7So.... if this turns out to be true, will you come back here and issue an apology?
    • modifiedbears, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8Yea, but I doubt they just woke up and said hey lets email people about a date change for this major game because we feel like it. I know they aren't always accurate, but come on.
  • dude199, on 10/11/2007, -2/+29will believe it when kojima or konami say so
  • carpespasm, on 10/11/2007, -12/+10though this looks to be of questionable reliability at best, it would be funny if the delay of release was so they could work on a 360 version of the game.
    • qwerty1024, on 10/11/2007, -8/+6Seems like the opposite to me. No 360 version is in the work making it a PS3 exclusive and therefore it's absolutely impossible to turn in a profit with the current install base hence the delay.

      Not sure if this news is legit but im strongly positive that it'll happen regardless eventually
    • zepolen, on 10/11/2007, -4/+9If they are waiting for the install base to increase before releasing, they are making a mistake.

      The only reason I am going to buy the PS3 is for this game. I'll hang on to my cash just in case it turns into a DNF.
    • emjaymj, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Yeah, MGS4 is the only game that can sell systems that is still PS3 exclusive. It makes no sense to wait for a larger installed base when Sony is basically counting on the game to start selling consoles for them.
  • JoeDiggsIt, on 10/11/2007, -16/+7Another score for the PS3!
  • Lou3000, on 10/11/2007, -11/+13I should have learned my lesson. Every generation Sony promises their big exclusive title "soon", but that always turns into eventually. PS2 took years to come out with a decent Gran Turismo (not even counting the crippled GT3 A Spec). PSP was supposed to have a Gran Turismo and MGS game, the MGS game just came out after almost 3 years and the GT game is vaporware.

    • NeoTechni, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14"Every generation Sony promises their big exclusive title "soon"

      Sony didn't promise MGS4, the guys making it did.
  • a0me, on 10/11/2007, -4/+21A Metal Gear Solid game dealyed?! Umpossible!
  • soapandfoam, on 10/11/2007, -9/+9The number 1# reason to own a PS3 has been delayed till next year, which is surely going to piss off a lot of PS3 owners. Metal Gear Solid was going to be the firing shot back to the 360’s HALO and Lost Odyssey combo this fall but it seems instead Sony is gonna have to depend on Uncharted and their other first party games to take up the slack. I certainly hope this years Ratchet and Clank is super kick ass.

    According to GameSwank emails were sent out from EBgameS and Gamestop to customers who had pre-orders; notifying them of the new release date info.


    Dear Customer,

    You have signed up to receive release date changes for:

    Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

    http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=T000316

    Old Release Date - 9/1/2007
    New Release Date - 3/1/2008

    Thank you for visiting EBgames.com!

    NOTE: The product release date is the best estimate as to when the product will become available. These dates are subject to change at anytime. EBGames.com is in constant communication with product vendors to provide you with the most accurate release dates possible.

    So from this email even March isn’t a sure thing, well good things are worth waiting for I suppose. But how does this affect PS3 sales this coming Fall?


    (now was that so hard?)
  • Seifey, on 10/11/2007, -6/+31FISSION MAILED
    • netkid91, on 10/11/2007, -8/+6Having just recently played MGS2: Substance, I find that humorus. You deserve a digging up.
  • icepick314, on 10/11/2007, -13/+8PLAYYSTATION 3 IS DOOOOOMED!!!!

    this delay can't be all that good for Sony hoping to get a big name title out before 2007...

    more and more people are buying PLAYSTATION 3 for the movies, not games....STILL

    that means game developers are looking toward multiplatform release due to lack of gamers for Sony console...maybe that's good thing since everyone can play certain titles instead of being locked out due to exclusivity...

    maybe there's hope for 360 version of MGS 4.....
  • jr8rulz, on 10/11/2007, -11/+2Why is cheetos always picked as the nerd food..i personally like combos
  • dpcdomino, on 10/11/2007, -9/+9Wow.....EVERY game nowadays gets delayed and every time they do, there is something always wrong with the company or the console.

    Said it once and I will say it again...delays are fine in my book as long as the final product shows the reason for the delay.

    People lack patience.
    • snoox, on 10/11/2007, -3/+0this is quite common, just more notable when the title is a big one. PR/marketing departments have their own ideas of how games will launch and surprise surprise, so do developers and the manufacturers. its all business folks.
  • Lou3000, on 10/11/2007, -10/+12Also note that the titles that PS3 owners have to look forward to are just sequels. MGS4, GT5, FFXIII. 360 owners get a lot of new IPs, though many of them may really suck, surely one will come out on top with Mass Effect, Too Human, Two Worlds, Blue Dragon, BioShock, Lost Odyssey.
    • roxya, on 10/11/2007, -16/+14MGS4... GT5... FF13... God of War 3...

      Umm, I'll take those sequels over any 'new IP' :)
    • proxima, on 10/11/2007, -13/+10I agree. I think it is great that 360 software is selling so well, especially including the fact that a lot of it is new IPs. What better way to spur creativity than allowing developers to create entirely new games. Not that I dislike sequels to proven games (read: Halo), but when your sequel count is closing in on 15, it might be a sign that its growing a little stale.. ;)
    • NeoTechni, on 10/11/2007, -8/+7And Lair, LittleBIGplanet, Eye of Judgement, we just got Calling all Cars
  • djphatjive, on 10/11/2007, -11/+5Maybe they can't get it to run on the ps3 hardware like they showed it running on the demos. Things like AI and other things making it not a possibility once everything else is thrown into it. There waiting until they have the programming knowledge to pull it off.
  • Mamesj, on 10/11/2007, -12/+17(disclaimer: I am a 360 owner) I know this thread is filled with circle jerking 360 fans who are going to bury me, but there was never an official release date for this game. it's not delayed, gamestop is just being a little more realistic.

    Besides there's plenty to play this Fall/Winter for PS3 owners. Aside from Halo 3, the PS3 line up for this year is pretty much on par, if not better than the 360 line up in its first year and this Fall/Winter (not combined.)
  • knodi, on 10/11/2007, -6/+1Kind of know a while ago when they said they where only just started(March) with the games voice overs.
  • soban, on 10/11/2007, -16/+3LOL so much the PS3
  • Marijuana, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8I like to look at this positively. I wanted to buy a PS3 whenever either Ratchet and Clank came out or MGS4. Since it's delayed that also means the PS3 might be lowered by the time MGS4 comes out.
  • roxya, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12Delayed? The game _never_ had a release date. It was a placeholder date, and now has a new placeholder date.
  • FrawQ, on 10/11/2007, -10/+3I hope so bad that a 360 MGS4 game comes out the only reason i would even think about buying a ps3 is for that game.
  • dave932932, on 10/11/2007, -5/+29They're waiting until them 5TB Blu-Ray discs come out which are neccesary for the 70 hours of cut scenes.
    • thehype2049, on 10/11/2007, -9/+3HA HA HA HA
    • netkid91, on 10/11/2007, -5/+18Amen to that, 70 hours of cutscenes and 2 hours of gameplay is my guess.
  • griffon2k, on 10/11/2007, -10/+4Eb Games/Gamestop isn't far off. MGS4 may even be a Fall 08 game. Kojima needs to give up waiting on the install base of the PS3 and just drop the game on the 360.He could always release again for PS3 later when the install base has grown, if it ever grows as high as the 360.....Ask Capcom, Namco Bandai and Square Enix, they know what's up.

    Muiltplatform is where it's at this gen.
  • waterdrop, on 10/11/2007, -8/+4They would have had it out earlier, but they started making a Xbox 360 version when they realized that the PS3 version wouldn't sell so well. And so the work on the 360 version of the game has delayed the PS3 version.
  • LeFrenzy, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7it partially has to do with implementing vibration functions in time for the new PS3 controller.

    This is fine by me, the #1 reason for me to buy a PS3 is MGS4. If it's delayed, I don't have to buy it until another year, hopefully along with a PS3 discount? ;)
  • btnheazy03, on 10/11/2007, -10/+1They need more time to port over to 360, hence the delay
  • wontyme18, on 10/11/2007, -4/+4There will be plenty of good games coming for Ps3 this Fall. I'm pumped about Lair, Heavenly Sword, Warhawk, and R&C: Tools of Destruction alone. Besides with Home debuting this Fall and Little Big Planet not far behind. I'm certain these games can sell systems and the fact that people will still ask for PS3's for the holidays because they see it as their only chance of getting one(hell that's how I got mine). Not to mention the multiplatform games and Playstation Network games. Be patient cause things are still looking good.
    • snakeplisskin, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1LOL is it so hard to admit a $600 mistake that you have to go into a deep state of denial.
  • sekou, on 10/11/2007, -5/+1My sentiments exactly! I'm happy as hell there's even less reason to buy one right now. Even if the price of the unit doesn't come down in 08, buy then it'll be much easier to find a used one in stores.
  • t3lite, on 10/11/2007, -6/+1This game was suppose to launch way back with the system at one time and now its not coming out until March??? Ive heard of delays but thats just terrible. I'm not here to bash Sony but I currently have a 360 and a Wii and i will eventually have a PS3 but theres just nothing out for it. Resistance is a top-quality FPS and Lair looks amazing but if it doesn't come out in July when its suppose to, I'm going to wait for a price drop.

    Ive went into stores about 3 times now with the thought of buying the PS3 but looking at the game selection, I always go home empty handed. If i buy one now, I would definitely use it mostly for Bluray which looks like its winning the war (unfortunately).

    Also I was looking at release dates to see if anything unsuspecting was coming out for ps3 and I noticed the 360 has 39 games coming out by the end of August and the PS3 only has 20 and the only 3 exclusives that look decent are Ninja Gaidan, Lair, and Coded Arms
  • InfinitySnatch, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7No way. In the trailer he even made a joke about it being released in 2008 only to say that it would come out in late 2007 for sure. No way can he back out from that now after deciding not to keep his mouth shut about it.
    • brandf, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2Anyone in the software industry (especially games) knows that you cant predict a ship date with any amount of accuracy. He probably suspected it would be delayed, but had to spit the company line.
  • christoscamaro, on 10/11/2007, -4/+5I don't own a PS3, but if I did, I wouldn't have a problem with a delay.

    Why? Better to get a solid final product, then to have a buggy incomplete version come out early. My guess is like on the 360, they can release patches and updates. My hope is they don't consider this an excuse to release buggy incomplete garbage.

    So long as it isn't delayed as much as Duke Nukem forever...
  • Matrix_Prime, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1who DIDN'T see a delay coming for this game??? Anyone?
  • TheTjalian, on 10/11/2007, -5/+7Diggers, this delay (if it is true) is more then likely because that way they can release a game with rumble, not due to porting the game to the XBOX 360.
    • TheTjalian, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Did I upset some fanboy? What I said makes clear sense.
  • TocsinFilms, on 10/11/2007, -6/+5Watch this turn into another Duke Nukem Forever. Man, would we all have been fooled!
  • specialK16, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5It's the Patriots!
  • xSEED, on 10/11/2007, -6/+3sweet this should mean it's coming to xbox 360 as well
  • brian1625, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2News would be if it wasn't delayed.
  • Emrtr4, on 10/11/2007, -6/+5Umm to the person who said the PS3's line up is looking dull this fall with the exception of GTAIV, bad news GTAIV is coming out next year on 360, PS3, and PC.

    Sorry to make it even bleaker.

    Meanwhile, between my PC and my 360 I will have
    Halo 3, Army of Two, Bioshock, Mass Effect, Stranglehold, Forza, Splinter Cell 5, Command and Conquer, Half Life 2/episodes, Team Fortress, and all the other goodies. Yea some of this stuff is on the PS3 too, but honestly if you have a 360 and a PC why would you spend money for a PS3 with the same third party games (that are ported to the PS3 and are natively developed for the PC and or 360) and maybe 2 games that I actually want to play (namely MGS4 and GT5).

    Just a thought on how I am saving $600 this year (ha, maaybe I will buy an Iphone instead of the PS3, jk).
  • goldliop, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2Ha, anyone else feel the ps3 deserved it, (im not saying people who got a ps3 deserve this, but sony deserves to burn for being complete a holes.)
    i mean cmon,
    600 bills for a console,
    which they try to ignore by saying " it's also a blu ray player!"
    that tactic worked when the ps2 came out, i mean it was my first dvd player... but i got it cause it also had good games.
    plus i cant afford the hdtv they keep telling me to get in order to enjoy it,
    so ill stick with my ps2 and DS, the game'll eventually get released on another console.
  • daridave, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1oh, the surprise! /sarcasm
  • frepnog, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3I want this game to be PS3 only for one reason - to PROVE that it WILL NOT move hardware in great numbers.

    The damn console COSTS TOO MUCH. MGS4 will sell a few consoles, sure. But not many when the console is SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS. Don't give me any "if you buy the HD-DVD addon for XBOX they cost the same" kinda BS either. The PS3 is in trouble. Failing? No, not really... but not doing well either. Most gamers are "meh" at this point. Most gamers don't have HD TV's. Most gamers don't give a rats ass about Blu-Ray. Most gamers DO want a PS3. But.... most gamers are not going to pay six hundred dollars for a console. They never have, and they never will. Will the price drop? HELL NO, at least not any time soon. Look at it this way - the xbox 360 has been out, what, 2 years... no price drop. No price drop coming, no price drop announced, no price drop needed. Sony needs the PS3 to be 600 bucks for a few years at least... in the long run, Sony has already lost this gen. they simply arent going to catch up to Nintendo or Xbox no matter what 1 or 2 great exclusives they have... especially when most of the "exclusives" are jumping ship like rats fleeing the Titanic. MGS4 is not going to save the PS3. Neither is FFXIII. Killzone certainly won't do it. Lair? Come on, wait till it comes out and NO ONE BUYS it... ask Sega how well dragon games sell, they made some great ones....
    • Mamesj, on 10/11/2007, -2/+0Wow, how original. I haven't read 100000000000 posts just like that in the past year. Thanks for your unique perspective and thoughtful insight.
    • Trask899, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1I do agree with you, in fact it does kill me to miss out on MGS4, but I can not justify spending that much money, even $400 at this point for 2 games. MGS4 and Heavenly Sword are the only ones that look appealing to me. Believe me, I'm a HUGE MGS fan... but $600, especially when every game that I loved on my PS2 has made it's sequel ways to the 360? The Xbox has finally lined up with some worthwhile orginal titles, something it took the first Xbox a long time to do.

      It is the PS3's first year, it came out late, but its enough to be unable to compare lineup for lineup, the 360's sucked for awhile.

      Now I just wish the Wii would A.) Get online(One Mario side game does NOT count) and B.) get some actual games aside from those damn mini games.
    • HBNDonut, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1"It is the PS3's first year, it came out late, but its enough to be unable to compare lineup for lineup, the 360's sucked for awhile."

      Very true, but lets be honest. The 360's launch lineup didn't suck half as much as the PS3's. I mean, even Resistence wasnt that great, graphics especially.
  • footbag01, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1This game was the only reason I was considering buying the PS3. I already have a 360 and wii so PS3 exclusives are the only ones that make me consider dropping $600. If it isn't coming out before Christmas, then PS3 is pretty much giving up on North America. And Lair just seems set to be a dissapointment.
  • UberGeekGamer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2History is starting to repeat itself again....
  • neks, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Did anyone NOT expect this?
  •  

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