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Computer Gaming College Degrees: Students Rush to Enroll

theaustralian.news.com.au — It's not as fun as it sounds. I predict a 'high' dropout rate.

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  • bdub92, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28Ya, they will have to play Barbie's Princess Pony adventures for hours and hours...
    • Akaji, on 10/12/2007, -0/+75Or worse yet, get a job as a programmer at EA.
    • gxcdesign, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9"So where do you see being good at video games is going to help us here at Oracle?"
    • kingkilr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Hello Kitty Island Adventure will comprise 3/4 of the class work and the final.
    • rockforever, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18Honestly, you see this kind of thing all the time. My first semester in college I was taking a VB course, logic, English, and Freshman Algebra. In my logic class there were maybe 9 people who wanted to be programmers (including me) and 8 of them wanted to program video games (i was the only one didn't). Next semester in my C++ class 6 of those same people are in there. Not one of them EVER CODED IN HIS LIFE. It was pathetic. They didn't know squat about what it meant to program. They just think they know video games so they can make them. Still programming games is one of the hardest things to do. Its one aspect that encompases many sides of programming. Now after seeing some game design I think I wanna jump into that field. Its pretty interesting.
    • Software2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I go to DigiPen, and yes, the overwhelming majority of people drop out (More than half the first year, and then half of that the second). Honestly, most people have the mentality that making games is the same thing as playing games. It isn't. But hey, I don't want that illusion to end. It's good job security for me. Virtually every game company (except EA) loves DigiPen students, becuse they know that they actually know what they're doing.
    • Drakoola, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I'm in High School and aspiring to attend DigiPen. Though I have 2 years of coding experience (torque script) and 1 year of DirectX. No official classes yet just books (Game Programming Gems), internet, and self teaching. I'm hoping that will be enough to get my head above the masses and make it into a high demand school like DigiPen.
    • invader, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i dropped out of a video game design bachelor program a couple years ago. my classmates all A.) didn't know how to program, B.) had never used a graphic design tool, and C.) did nothing but play video games during their free time.

      most of the classes seemed to be dumbed down for them.. i got half way to getting the BA, and the only 'technical' course i had taken was javascript.. it was a waste of my time and i really doubt that degree would be respected by most companies in technology industries -- especially with colleges handing out video game design degrees to dimwits like my classmates
    • Konrad9, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1I'm currently in the E-game programming class at Champlain College, in Burlington, Vermont.
      2nd semester of freshman year and we're doing intro to C++.
      I'd like to say I'm learning a lot about C++, but my teacher doesn't know anything so until my class transfer goes through I'm SOL.
      The course outline, however, is extremely promising.
      http://www.champlain.edu/majors/egame-prog/curriculum.php
    • MasterSharma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Drakoola I am in high school as well (junior) and have some years of experience with C++ and took AP Computer Science (advance placement, gives college credit with is good). I found it to be a little boring, but it gives you some experience with Java, which is good because learning OOP programming is an imperative if you want to be a programmer.

      I don't like some of those self teach game programming books that run off Visual Basic and try to make it look fun and easy. The fact is that programming is all logic, math, and figuring the smoothest and more efficient algorithms.
    • darkspire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Software2

      I hate to break it to you, but more than just EA aren't interested in DigiPen, GuildHall, and other diploma mills. Many game development firms are looking for computer scientists over people with game development degrees because they have a larger range of knowledge and typically have an easier time adapting to new technologies, or even developing new technologies. They may hire plenty of people from DigiPen, but the majority are just for doing grunt work because at that point you are really not much more than a technician.
    • gfixler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I went to an art school with a good curriculum for its Computer Animation degree. I have worked for a handful of games companies since. The class was divided in its wish to go into games, or film, and those were the places where the major's intentions were pointed. A good number ended up in one or the other, but as good a number didn't go into either, and I've talked with several old classmates who are looking to get out of it now, as it's quite a time consuming thing, and can really wear you out if you're not the go-go-go all the time type. The people getting out of the industry are going into things like real estate, or mental institutions :) At many places, it can be a quite stressful, and bizarrely unhappy job, especially if you have a stereotypically bad boss, of which there are plenty (current boss rocks, thankfully).

      I've had conversations at a few companies, large and small, wherein I've asked things like "Why are we all so pissed off, and unhappy all the time? We're making video games. This is supposed to be a fun job." The answers were usually just tired, ponderous starings off into space, possibly while attempting to figure out why it isn't like that, or dismissive mutterings. The thing is, the core components of the job *are* fun. I enjoy using the tools, and making the elements that go into it - it's my kind of work - but people get used to anything very quickly, and it just becomes another thing that you "have to do," when you'd rather be doing whatever else is on your mind. That's the key - do what you actually like, but know what you're going to be doing ahead of time. Don't presume anything about any job.

      Overtime is the norm, and usually it's expected, and uncompensated, as you're on salary, and other people want your job, so you don't have much leverage. At all but one company, I've had to stay very often 'til very late, sometimes past midnight, or 'til 2AM, or have had to work 6 day weeks, or give up entire weekends (4 or 5 in a row sometimes), or 'til 10PM every night for weeks, and you never know when it will happen. You'll be packing things up to go home at 8PM (fairly normal games industry clock-out time in LA), and find out you're needed for an undetermined extra amount of time, usually many hours. That's happened to me more often than I can count (or would care to know) at several companies, again, great and small. There's a great amount of competition, and an urgent need to squeeze more into less time, to compete with all the other companies doing the same thing. Once I spent 4 days in a row greater than 20 hours each day (2 hours sleep/night) to get something monumental done by an important deadline. This was uncompensated. Compensation is for sissies. Another time I saw an art director sleep under his desks 2 or 3 nights in a row, because the deadline loomed so large, he couldn't afford to go home. He smelled a bit by the end. There are always crazy deadlines, and something, or several somethings always go wrong, regardless of how well, or how carefully everything was planned out.

      That said, we do have our share of fun (though at one or two places there was seriously no happiness at all), and there are a not insignificant number of hardcore gamers where I work, who can really let the job be their life, devoting most resources, especially time, to developing better things. It is not what's seen on the Westwood College commercials, though I do admit that we have been known to "tighten up the graphics" occasionally. It's just necessary sometimes.

      My two pieces of advice, to take with a grain of salt, from both getting hired to several companies, and being part of the hiring process at several companies (currently I have most of the say over hires for my particular department) for the last 5-6 years. The college you went to means very little beyond "Oh, I heard that place is pretty good," or more often "Never heard of it." In games, and film, it's the demo reel that counts. However you can get to the point of making a great demo reel (and not by luck), that's the best way. That's really the first thing seen. We pop in the tape, or homemade DVD, and in 10 seconds know if it's worth our time, or not (put your best stuff up front, and don't include anything that isn't very good, or great). If it looks good, then we say "This person really tightened up their graphics (or whatever) - who are they?" THEN we look at the details. There just isn't any point reading all of those words first, because there can be a lot of reels to go through, while we're under tight deadlines, and we're not hiring people for their proper spelling, or page layout skills. We want to see the proof, the action. A well-made resume is nice, but exists at the very bottom of what anyone cares about, at every games company where I've worked. I would fully accept Engrish, typed up in Comic Sans, if the reel rocked hard enough.

      The second thing is to note that you're being hired to fill a void, not because *you* love RTS games, or are at whiz at MMORPGs, and everyone said you should make them. We can all be friends, and bat around interests when you're hired, but up front, no offense meant, few will care what you're into. That's all great, and certainly interest, and skill in games will help some in making components of games that you'd enjoy playing yourself, but you have to think of the other side - from the employer's perspective. The people looking at the reels are the people in those departments, because an HR person, unless you're at a gigantic place, doesn't typically know what they're looking at. They're not trained in that. It's the person, or people working specifically in that department every day who are going to know what's good, and what sucks, so they're the ones in your reel, watching your demos. This is time out of the time they have to finish their own work, and often, if they're looking to hire, it's because there's a need, i.e. they're stressed, with deadlines, and need someone who can hit the ground running, and can show them that in the first 15 seconds of demo reel. Don't waste their time with 15 seconds of your name turned into a sweet, spinning logo, and lots of effects. Just get to the content - can you draw very well, can you animate beautifully, can you code up a 4-dimensional Game of Life on your lunch break? If you can do the last one, post it to Digg, because that would be cool. I want to see it. Back to the point - if you can do great stuff, flourish, and pieces of flare will be a nice touch, provided they're not in the way. Otherwise, fancy business surrounding no content will get your tape 3-point thrown into the garbage can. Sorry - it's just business - and a hectic one at that.

      I've been there, and felt the "sweet relief" of a room watching a reel, and getting very excited, not because they love the work so much, but because they've found the person who's likely going to make everything a lot easier for awhile. Anyone at any job would love that, but especially in a job with batnuts crazy deadlines. If you can be that person, you're hired, and the people will say "Get this person on the phone *now,* before someone else hires them." The way to be that person is do the work, all the time, so you get really proficient, and adequately skilled. You can't fake it to the companies, because they deal with it every day. I couldn't ***** my way through an interview with a few construction foremen, and you can't ***** your way past me with bad animations. Use the intertubes. Show your work around - crave criticism, and thank people. Don't burn any bridges, because the industry is surprisingly small, and you will keep running into the same people everywhere, and you'd be surprised how often I've been watching a demo reel, and one of the 5 people in the room says "Oh, I worked with him at ____ - he was a complete ass." That's all it takes, and the tape is in the trash.

      Compare and contrast your results with anything you can find out there - online and off - and there are many great online resources. Here's where a great art school, or engineering school is crucial - not for the resume (plenty of people from any school who just can't do the work for whatever reason(s)) - but because you'll be in among colleagues from whom you'll learn more than all of the teachers and classes combined. This was true at my school. The students all taught each other so much, because everyone was better at something, or sucked really hard, and warned the rest of how not to do things ;) Also, these will be your "connections" when you get out there, and it's HIGHLY important in this industry. I've gotten several jobs because I knew someone who knew me when, and knew I could do this, that, or some other thing they needed, even when it wasn't exactly true. It's human nature to like familiar things. Hiring friends (provided they don't suck) is exceedingly common, as are bosses saying things like "If any of you have friends who can ____ (whatever job skill is currently necessary) - get them to apply, 'cause we're looking." You can start to gather connections by just being polite, and persistent with companies, and asking around if people are willing to critique your work (people who would know - not your cousin in high school), and taking their advice, and being very proactive. Or, find a good school, and use all of its resources.

      In talking with engineer coworkers at a few companies, they care that you can work through weird problems - being quick on your "feet" as it were when faced with bizarre errors, and ridiculous restrictions. It's key that you have a great foundation in as much of the useful maths as possible. This always seems extremely important. Experience writing solid AI, pathing, collision, game logic, all of the ins-and-outs of working with DirectX, or other graphics libraries - any and all of that is a big plus, and in fact, will make or break your chances with a good company. You have to be ready for the fact that the code is likely going to be a mess, and completely undocumented, as necessitated by short deadlines, constant feature addition and removal for reasons like going over memory footprints, or lagging framerates, or orders handed down from upper management, or bugs returned from Q&A, and even a heavy turnover rate. I've had scripts that used 4 or 5 languages to get a simple job done, because each person who touched them had a different skill set, and hooked in with Perl, or Python, or C#, or who knows what else, requiring me to install a handful of virtual engines just to properly install an exporter. The programmers have it very rough, and at quite a few companies, have appeared to me as wraiths, moving in slow-motion, beaten down by unreasonable time constraints, and ship dates, and bug tracking lists that look more like world population figures. Only the fresh engineers still have their spirit, and lofty goals, at least through the first few crunch times :)

      There are plenty of people enjoying the field, though, and this isn't all to scare anyone away. This is just info in hopes of giving interested parties a sense of the commitment required, and uphill climbs endemic to the industry, so you can make a more informed decision. It is most definitely not a 9-to-5 job, unless, as was mentioned, you're working on a Barbie game, and I've had about 5 old college pals who've done just that (and hated it). Best of luck.
  • Dibbz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+57Is this the same college where people tighten up the graphics for games?
  • Salgat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19I wish people would take college more seriously, a degree is worthless if you can't do anything on the job site, or for that matter if the jobs aren't even out there.
    • intent, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Yeah. College is the new high school in terms of opportunities opened, difficulty, and prestige.
    • Hydraulix, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3College is overrated.
    • Firehed, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4I wish my college took education more seriously. I don't even know why I came back for second semester, let alone how the school's won awards for anything, let alone in what I actually came here for.

      College is definitely overrated. Or, at least, mine is.
    • drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3People won't take college seriously until college takes college seriously. Until the university systems stop dumbing down material to get their pass rates up, charging through the nose for tuitition, room and board, and stop the ***** PC policies on campus; college will not be taken seriously. The only colleges that are remotely taken seriously are Ivy league and your big name schools, everything else can safely be labeled a "party" school where parents send there kids to live for 5 years ( so few actually graduate after 4 anymore).
    • manova, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8No, you should take college seriously. College only provides opportunities. If you only go to class and study just enough to pass, then, yes, college is nothing special. To take college seriously, you need to take the opportunity to read more than what is assigned, to do more on an assignment than what is asked, get involved with a professor's research, take advantage of study abroad or internships, etc. Your goal should be to leave college with something real, one product, one business idea, one publication, one composition...you name it. College gives you a great opportunity to work on your own ideas and not your boss's. Everyone applying for jobs has a degree, but only a few people actually leave with proof that you can take an idea from beginning to end.
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@drmangrum

      "People won't take college seriously until college takes college seriously. ... The only colleges that are remotely taken seriously are Ivy league and your big name schools, everything else can safely be labeled a "party" school ..."

      The ivy league schools are taken seriously because of their admission standards. They don't need to do much to educate their students. But you can go to much lesser known colleges with good faculty and get a top-notch education if you want to. Yes, you'll have the same degree that a lot of fellow student slackers got, but it won't hold you back. To someone who seeks education, university is only the first 4 years of a lifetime of education.
  • TonyBuzzan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11"One of our terrible fears is that we're going to have this cohort of students who imagine that they're going to be allowed to play games 50 hours a week for three years and then be handed a degree,"

    Did he just accurately describe the average digg reader doing a degree?
    • drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5No, he described the average student who gets forced to go to college whether they are ready for it ot not....and most are not.
  • BarryChuckle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27I'm on a similar course at university.

    The thing people sometimes don't understand, is its basically the same as any other generic computing course, however it also includes things such as 3D design & animation, as well as having a lean towards the games industry. There is ALOT of Mathematics involved, as well as hours and hours of design and programming. We do the same examinations as the generic computing students, and then some more.
    I could walk out with a degree, and never work for a games company in my life, I've learn how to write programs in two languages since starting the course, and have also built up from my previous experience in 3D design and am hoping to create a nice portfolio (who doesn't).

    To say this course is useless, is really rather naive. There are hundreds times more people enrolling on courses such as Film and Television Media, or Psychology, which, from experience, are pretty much useless.

    The people who join such "games" courses thinking that they'll have an easy life playing and making games for three years, Have a very big brick wall that they're heading straight for. Luckily I hit the ground running.
    • floridiot2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I went to a school for Game Dev, and there were a lot of kids who thought it would be easy and couldn't hang. I was one of 17 graduates out of 60 for our month. We started out with 60, and ended up with 17. A new group starts every month, it's a year-round school.
    • perogi21, on 10/12/2007, -13/+1Obviously you do not take "ALOT" of English classes...
    • universltravlr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Psych majors are trendy anymore. I will rarely reveal I am one. I usually just say pre-med.
    • TheShad0w, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I got a Game Dev degree and I work in the industry. But I didn't just jump into it, I spent a year and a half as a regular code monkey. I can agree with a lot of the comments here. You have to have a passion for the hard work that goes into creating a game. Its not just a walk in the park. Its just as hard as a regular Comp-Sci degree except you spend a lot of time working with more specific libraries and technologies. When I started my degree there were over 100 when I walked the stage there were only 5 left. People need to stop and research these careers before they go to school for them. That would definitely reduce the amount of time wasted in college trying to decide on a major.
    • durzagott, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@floridot2:

      "A new group starts every month, it's a year-round school."

      Did you go to Full Sail? That's where I got my degree and it is very much how you described. Awesome place, even if it is one big sausage fest.
    • BarryChuckle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@perogi21

      Obviously someone has never heard (or rather seen) forms of verbal speech translated into their online counterparts?
      It's not just 12 year old kids who write in capslock you know, people use it as a form of emphasis, such as shouting.

      This isn't English class, This is Digg.

      @TheShad0w

      Yeh, we started with around 60-70 students, thats since been halved. with some moving onto a similar course aim solely at the design portion. as you said, people shouldn't take the 'games' title of the course literally.Maybe they should change its name to something less appealing?
  • KyleMistry, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2Kaplan?

    By any chance, is this University run by Nintendo? Because it'd be pretty neat to have Mario as a Literature Professor and Link as the coach of the Football Team.
  • LurkerSteve2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The closest you can get to "playing games" for 50 hours a week is in QA, where the pay is low and, chances are, you'll end up testing boundary conditions. And that's if you are testing a GOOD game.
    • Atomic1fire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Video Game Quality Assurance

      QA has traditionally been the position where non-technical game enthusiasts get there foot in the door-its an excellent path to becoming a game designer or other production - related positions in the industry.

      Video Game QA salaries per years of experience and position:

      Game Testers: video game testers with 3 years or less experience make on average $33,362 a year. Game Testers with 3-6 years of experience average $33,385 a year and Game Testers with 6 or more years of experience average $48,435 a year.

      QA Leads: video game QA leads with 3 years or less experience makes an average of $38,340 a year. QA Leads with 3-6 years of experience average $43,195 a year and QA Leads with 6 or more years of experience average $60,929 a year with the highest salary being reported at $225,000!. .
      http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html
      the pay still depends on experience
    • TheShad0w, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@atomic1fire

      This is true its based off experience but there aren't enough people who are willing to stick with it. It sounds like fun but its hours of repeating the same steps trying to recreate a bug. Its no glamorous thing and you have to really enjoy it.
    • Kwipper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It sounds to me that QA will actually take the fun out of playing video games.
  • blahtastic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I don't really think they have that much to worry about. Most people who would be interested enough in games to have a degree in them should know what that degree entails. Except for a few halo loving fratboys (nothing wrong with halo, just some real morons I've encountered online) I'd bet the vast majority are expecting programming and 3d animation classes.
  • etnu, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2Video game degrees are stupid for the same reason that film school degrees are stupid: you can't make someone into a better film maker or better game designer this way. Instead, what you need is to focus on the components that make up the degree. For film, we're talking acting & cinematography. For video games, we're talking programming and animation. Writing plays a big factor in both.
    • patjk, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1I disagree. You can work on programming and specifics of gaming programming with the degree. Film and phycology though, you're right on, they suck

      http://www.pjkcubed.com
      http://www.cleancomputerhelp.com
    • zatch5412, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Film School Degrees are useless? I'm not arguing with the fact that there is an element to film making that can't be taught. However, film schools can provide a person with a valuable environment to learn the technical aspects of film making. It can mean the difference between coming straight out of school and directing (as many Art Center graduates do) or struggling your way up as a PA, trying to save enough money to make a reel... which there is no guarantee anyone will even look at once it's finished.

      I'm not saying you need a film degree to work in the industry, but having a degree has never hurt anyone. To say they are useless is a very jaded view.
  • yobbo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm currently doing one of a games degrees at uni and I can confirm the drop out rate. Some of the early games units are pretty much a room full of guys who love gaming making jokes about being no girls in class - some then drop out after finding out the work involved and the skills needed are more than what you need for a regular computer science course (Games require pretty much all your OOP skills, C++ pointers and of course maths and maybe physics). Your really need to be more of a coder than a designer - its very much a science and not an arts degree.
    Having said that, once the nOObs drop out of the games course you're left with the more dedicated games programmers so its not all bad as some doubters think. You can do some pretty good ***** in a games degree (good for the CV) compared to the relative easy passage of the computer science degree (which i've completed)
  • mharroun, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2This follows the flaw of "good at all...master of nothing". Games require code that is efficient in both of terms of speed and memory usage and many games are now going the way of online multi player, coders must also be skilled in coding for distributed databases and network sockets.

    So either the Computer Science degree is bloated or the Gaming degree delivers under skilled coders.
    • greevar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Game Design and Game Programming are two very different aspects of Game Development. Game Design pertains to the creation of the game system (mechanics), story, characters, environment, and other design elements, which is an art form in the industry. Game Programmers receive the game design document and make the game "engine". Programming is not the core of game design. In fact, it is a small part of the process. What I'm learning in this program can be applied to much more than just games. It can be used to build simulation tools to train users on equipment they will use at their job, my department chairman used 3DS Max to create a CG version of Minneapolis for the civil engineering department so they could better plan their transportation projects, there was a student in my very program that created a tool that trained delivery drivers how to get to their customers at pizza hut. You learn many arts in Game design as well. Story boards used to plan the game's story and flow of action in the game, as well as camera framing for each scene. We learn how to use the tools, photoshop, 3DS Max, torque engine, Unreal Editor, Flash, and so on. You need to know how to write a design document, idea proposals, presentation skill, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, and write press releases. You never know what you might be expected to do.
  • jetsetgo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I tend to agree with this. I took a lot of gaming classes before I graduated recently. Out of 80 or so different students in the various classes I only know of three still interested in working in the industry and I was the only one motivated enough to join the local professional chapter.

    http://www.igda.org if you are interested.
  • LonesomeFighter, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Ya i was one of those video game majors. Seriously i was. But i switched to another major cuz i got bored and was tired of being with cartoon watching japan loving no life nerds.
    ps. since my video game making experience, i have not enjoyed playing games anymore. So be careful, but then again, i now save money by not needing consoles, games and a kick ass computer.
  • tsunamikitsune, on 10/12/2007, -7/+0I want to be a video game journalist. I don't want to make the games; even programming in BASIC is too much for me.

    Here's my blog, so you can all tell me how terrible I am and thrash my dreams. :P

    http://kitsunegaming.wordpress.com/
  • lotuseater, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7For quite a while I wanted to be a game designer. I tried out a number of different level editors, programming, and 3d suites. I never finished anything, and I finally came to the hard realization that this work was much too tedious for me. I really don't have the mind to sit down for hours on end and meticulously map out a mod. I realized that what I wanted to be was an idea guy. I suspect that the majority of these eager students are the same way. You're not going to get a job as the idea guy.
    • Kwipper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I have to agree with you there. A lot of gamers, (myself included) have lots of good ideas towards making good games. However, we don't want to be the guy to actually program them, and design them through code. It's a lot of hard work and requires lots of training and knowledge for those kinds of things. Instead we want to be the guy who goes....

      Here is an idea for a cool game. I want it to do this, and look like that, and play like this and flow like that! I don't want it do to this like that particular game over at this place, because that game sucked and it got poor reviews because of it. So instead, do it like this, and you'll be good....

      .. and let the the programmers and artists do the work for you.
  • fantasyflamz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm actually getting a degree in IMGD (interactive media and game development) at my school WPI (worcester polytechnic institute). Although I just switched majors to that (from bio), I know it's just not playing games. I mean it depends on if you do a technical or artistic concentration, but you do lots of programming, especially in game engines, or do artistic and 3-d modeling things.
    • razordancer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I heard that school offers a great sauce program.
  • Nick22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you dont understand what game design involves, you shouldnt enroll for courses. Not saying you need to know the programming or anything, but just understanding that it does involve alot of hard work, programming, art work etc. (depending on what position you want to work on)

    My friend for example, he seems to think hes going to make a MMOFPS. I asked him if he even knows what it takes to make a game and he responds "Do you?!"

    Personally, I would love to be a game designer. Iv made mods, flash games etc. before and I currently do web programming, so im not just one of those kids that has a bunch of cool ideas for a game and figures that he could make it happen, only to quit like a week later.
  • DigitAl56K, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I did a degree in the UK for computer games and virtual environments, and it was no piece of cake. The first year was deceptively straightforward - some basic C, java, audio/midi, 3d modelling, even HTML (the 'wtf?!' module). Then came OpenGL, Direct3D, surround audio programing, and crazy crazy maths. Because the maths was related to 3D transforms, signal analysis/generation, etc. etc. it rivalled the work in some dedicated degrees. Know what you're getting into - it can be *immense* fun, but it's no piece of cake. One thing I would say to people running these courses though is make the workload consistent: By the time I had got to second year of my course I was bored out of my brains because the first year modules were a joke. After that the real work came in, but I had lost a lot of interest by that point (12 months later), which was a shame.
  • thepxc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I think I'm in almost the opposite situation of a lot of these kids. Granted, I'm still in high school, but here's what I've found out, having taken four programming classes (three of them college-level). I came into programming wanting to make video games--it just seemed like the thing to do. As I've learned more and more about it, I've realized that programming for the sake of programming is satisfying to me--it wouldn't matter to me whether or not I was developing Elder Scrolls VII or the next TurboTax.

    The other weird thing I've noticed is that I do well in computer science and logic puzzles/algorithm design even though math is my weakest subject. The problem with math, for me, anyway, is sloppy arithmetic and lack of showing work. Understanding things in a bigger way is really what's more important for computer science.
    • mustbepatient, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That's kind of an odd comment. Where I work, you can't check in any code without "showing your work" and it will be like that at any sophisticated development organizations. My advice to you is to make sure your code is clear and well-documented, and you will be doing well.
  • ThorPrime, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Here at UCSC, they introduced game design as a major this year. Comparing the requirements to a computer science degree shows some major flaws in the Game degree. The game degree requires many courses outside of the discipline such as theater and art, which is good. However, it does this at the cost of core classes in math and algorithms. Classes such as vector calculus and discreet math, as well as algorithms and hardware. The classes remain a part of the degree, but move to optional. With the courses required, one really doesn't seem to be that qualified for a real programming job.
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Should game *design* involve programming? Design is not implementation.
  • theokandroid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I was in a Gaming Course last year, Actually it was my major, but after realizing that the same people in those classes are the people I'd have to work with day in and day out I figured that it'd be best to switch to Animation instead.
  • BrandonTurner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Michigan State also has a gaming design and theory degree.
  • darthfergie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0friend of mine started off as a "Game Design" major. He never should have gone to college, but he was convinced he was meant to be a game designer. Took him one semester to drop out with 5Fs and 1D. Games and Math?! what?!
  • bustaballs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I recently enrolled at RSU here in Claremore since it now offers a game development program. I've been doing freelance game development for seven years or so and becoming a pro or semi-pro has always been my dream. While it is true that most people don't understand the difficulties behind real game development, I assure you that I won't be one of your predicted drop-outs.
  • thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0May all be fun and games (excuse the pun) at the beginning but as soon as they get to that discrete math course............
  • SargedeathXmode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0wow, I'm getting more confused... I'm awesome at math, my favorite subject, but i don't know if I'll like level designing (can't seem to have time to work on my Zelda map)... but only an idiot would think a game programming major is about playing video games... seriously, people should at least know that when they're paying thousands for college
    • thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Just like people who think computer science is about programming I guess.
  • BJ_Blaskowitz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I came very close to studying for a degree in games technology but at the last minute decided on taking a normal CS degree. While I love playing video games, making a living out of them just seemed too unrealistic to me. I mean, compared to other IT industries there aren't a lot of jobs out there and a lot of competition to go with it. I think that it would be better learning other topics in uni/college while teaching yourself some game-related topics on the side. That way you get a day job and still get to have fun with game playing/making in your own time.
  • ericeman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It seems to me that this is vaguely similar to what happens to film students. Many students go in thinking that you'll instantly become a hollywood director but instead of dropping out (as people say these prospective game creators do) they graduate with little idea of how exactly they intend on using their degree.

    It's similar in regards to the fact that some people associate making movies with seeing movies and think they can become their favorite director without any real effort being put in.

  • Xhemistry, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Last year my college, Case Western Reserve University, offered an Introduction to Computer game design. There were about 90 people enrolled in the class when it started, and by the end of the semester half had dropped out. Apparently they didn't realize that programming video games takes ALOT of time.
  • bluemeep, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Speaking as someone that took a computer animation course (not quite the same vein, but it's in the same limb), I've found it to be absolutely worthless even while trying to find industry work. In fact, I've even been laughed out of interviews simply for having it on my resume.

    Thanks, Full Sail. Give me my ***** money back.
    • durzagott, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmm, I graduated from Full Sail with an animation degree and I did alright out of it. Not as good as others, but I guess I wasn't as interested in making commercials as I thought I would be. Still, my friend from the course went to LA and has his name on several big budget movies now. Full Sail is what you make it, nothing more. I think because the courses are so expensive there people expect it to be a skeleton key into the industry. Really, it's nothing more than a bunch of "Introduction to" courses strung together.

      PS: Yes, I've been laughed at in an interview over the name too. I see this as a positive thing, though, as it's a bit of an ice breaker. Once I explain what the place was like most people think it sounds quite cool.
  • alanmarchman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Virginia College in both Birmingham and Huntsville, AL have a "Animation & Game Design" Bachelor's program (I used to run the Web and Graphic Design programs at the B'ham campus until I quit to be a full time web designer), and all it focused on was the design aspect of gaming. Not a lick of programming to be found. They have yet to get students up to the level to do any real game creation yet, but the plan was to teach them Unreal Editor to develop a game from.

    The majority of students in that program are big gamers and are not really into computers or programming or hardware and have never designed or written anything in their lives, yet they are in school to become game designers. Only a few (a scant few) of them were really creative and came to the school with creative ability in both drawing and writing. I would be comfortable saying that 75% of the people in that program can't even draw or put creative thoughts to paper. Imagine an entire class of game design students plagiarizing a paper in Art History. That happened. A large percentage of those students lack basic grammar skills and therefore, don't write or communicate very well, but they love playing games, hoo boy! All they come in knowing is that they "really like madden or halo" and the school signs them up for a $60,000 program they'll never get a job out of.

    But that's not the students of Virginia College or Full Sail or Collins or Westwood's fault. It's how those schools poorly market those programs. "I can't believe we get paid to play games!" or "These guys aren't playing games. They're doing homework!" What a crock of crap. If someone was really doing serious homework about a video game, they'd be picking apart the source code or have their nose stuck in a good C book. Those would make for some boring commercials, though. Even better was the way VC marketed by saying they had classrooms of Alienware PCs. This was true, they had classrooms of Alienwares, hell even my web design lab had Alienwares in it, but while those are great for playing games on, they weren't built for heavy rendering or running 3D studio max all that well. Hell, the Alienware's in my web design lab mostly ran Dreamweaver, Flash & Photoshop and those pieces of crap broke down left and right.
  • ka0tic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2When they realize that their first month consists of playing level 1 of some random game over and over again from 9 to 5, their smiles will quickly vanish.
  • barret232hxc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm currently attending fullsail as well for the game development program. I'm in the 2nd month of final project. for those of you who don't know, final project is your last 5 months where you form a team and make a game similar to how things are done in the industry. We started out by forming our teams then choosing a studio name and then choosing our individual team names. Each person is assigned a role in how the team works such as project lead, tech lead, asset lead, and interface lead. I am the asset lead and handle working with all the artists and scheduling the integration and delivery of assets. The first month is all about design and writing your design document which is what we like to call a game bible, it has everything and anything about your game. The next month you focus on asset requirements and your tech doc. The tech doc lays out all the modules you will need for the game as well as their descriptions and how everything is going to be related such as depend ices and inheritance. Then you also have to have what is called a gant chart. this gant chart is basically the master schedule which has all the tasks and whom they are to be completed by and when they are to completed by. They take things very seriously. You must do many presentations to pitch your game as if you were presenting to a real publisher to get people interested in your game. I can't say that I've ever had a better experience and I finally feel that I'm getting my money's worth after all the hard work to get here. I myself had no programming knowledge coming into this school and the dropout rate is extremely high. I heard one guy thought that we just use warcraft 3 editor and make maps. The whole thing is that you got to have a passion for what you love and to not let anyone else tell you otherwise. I have had a great experience so far and hope to continue on and become successful. I do agree the marketing is complete *****. when they bring people to fullsail and I hear them explaining the game development program they never talk much about coding they just make it seem like it's all fun and games but it's really the biggest challenge I ever had. I never had any trouble with school till i came here. I actually had to step up to the plate and pitch what was being thrown to me. I hope anyone interested and really serious will take full advantage of the opportunity b/c school's like these were not available years ago and are fairly new.
  • siddiqui03, on 10/27/2007, -0/+0yo im still in high school and wanna go in the field of game development.....i am also very decent with all versions of 3dsmax and have made many cool things but if anyone could point me in the right direction (courses, degrees, colleges) for game development it would be appreciated.....and also i need to choose my field so i also have the question about the job availability and pay if i go game develpment as a programmer and designer...
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