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Cathedral row over 'Resistance: Fall of Man'

news.bbc.co.uk — The Church of England is seeking legal action against entertainment company Sony for featuring Manchester Cathedral in a war battle computer game. Sony Playstations 'Resistance: Fall of Man uses the interior of the cathedral's nave without permission. The game, which has sold more than one million copies, shows a virtual shoot-out in the cathedral

Who dugg this? Made popular Jun 9, 2007

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  • inactive, on 10/11/2007, -10/+152Some people really need to understand the concept of reality and fantasy.
  • danep, on 10/11/2007, -9/+76Seriously... I think my thoughts on the matter can be pretty well summed up by the quote by the Sony representative... "[Umm... are you guys for real?] It's entertainment, just like Dr. Who or any other science fiction. It isn't based on reality at all." If you can't separate entertainment from reality (a problem a large part of our culture seems to suffer from) you've got some serious issues my friend. Doubly so if you've risen into a position of power (like bishop) without being able to differentiate the two.
  • Scarfy, on 10/11/2007, -5/+66OMG SHOOTING IS SO COOL I'M GOING TO GO SHOOT UP THE MANCHESTER CATHEDRAL BECAUSE ITS ENCOURAGED BY A VIDEO GAME
  • kenvsryu, on 10/11/2007, -19/+75In religion, fantasy is reality.
  • Eastlygod, on 10/11/2007, -1/+43The article was updated after I submitted it - the description I added was straight from the article at the time it was submitted.
  • Twoodge, on 10/11/2007, -5/+47CoE, you need to get a ***** grip.

    Why don't NYC officials sue Rockstar for GTA IV? What about The Getaway - they literally copied pretty much every street in London. Actually, why don't we sue every game company who's ever used a real location in their products?
  • aegis9975, on 10/11/2007, -1/+40Human on mutant alien violence as depicted in Resistance: Fall of Man should be condemned. Period. Kudos for the Church for standing up for the rights of the Chimera.
  • grumbel, on 10/11/2007, -2/+41Shouldn't any copyright on that buildings have expired a few eons ago?
  • hiPpymIck, on 10/11/2007, -6/+41"seeking legal action"
    FTA
    "The Church of England is considering legal action"

    big difference
  • Caiman, on 10/11/2007, -1/+26You'd think they'd appreciate the free advertising. Who knew such exciting events could take place inside a cathedral?
  • ahpro, on 10/11/2007, -5/+29I'd just like to point out that not all us brits are stuck-up like that. :-)
  • thatsmyaibo, on 10/11/2007, -4/+26@azi

    So do you believe all the GTA games should be scrapped for using the exteriors too?

    (Twoodge, you beat me to it)
  • Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -1/+21Any similar problems with Hellgate: London?
  • jacksons98, on 10/11/2007, -5/+20This is totally insane. What's next the state of Hawaii sues the makers of "Lost."
  • InetRoadkill, on 10/11/2007, -17/+32Organized religion sucks.
  • soulscreme, on 10/11/2007, -3/+17Well, I can't say for sure as I am not knowledgeable of British law. It seems that Sony asked permission and was granted it, but now the church claims that the permission was only granted for the exterior and not the interior.

    The whole thing is ridiculous, in the game it is set up as an abandoned field hospital. This was frequent in Europe during the real events of WWII. It's not like you are killing humans or innocents inside the church. You are killing alien monsters.

    I'm just happy because for once it isn't my church, the Catholic Church, looking like a bunch of loons.
  • HunterTV, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15Off hand I would think it depends on if it's private or public property. Public, "fair use," private, needs permission.

    I've personally never heard of someone suing for using a depiction of a building in a game before, but maybe that's because permission was obtained in most cases. Did Michael Bay need to get permission from the owners of the Chrysler Building to destroy it in Armageddon? It's more or less the same thing; depiction of a building in a work of fiction.

  • Ragnar0k, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15Being able to afford a PS3 as well as being able to play on a console 9 hours a day?

    Man, I need to get into your line of work. Screw studying physics.

    ``Rag
  • admirabumblebee, on 10/11/2007, -13/+25Well... I use to play gears religously, nearly 9 hours a day (I own my own business) since it came out, as well as all my friends. It is by no means a bad game at all.

    Then I ponied up for a ps3 and suddenly everyone drops gears for RFOM. Some even SOLD their xbox's for the game, of course those people were morons, but it does get my point across.

    There's a lot of depth in resistance if you take a deep look, and there's an update coming soon (week or so?) with free maps and whatnot.

    If ANYTHING, resistance MP doesnt have 7 12 year olds screaming profanities at the top of their lungs and bitching about lag. That in itself is worth the price of admission.

    ---

    edit: I just noticed my top comment went up to +15 then down to -1 while i wrote this post. Jeez, fanboy much? I always keep forgetting digg's irrational buttsecks with the wii60.
  • GhostToon, on 10/11/2007, -6/+17How long until Jack Thompson calls the church? He is crazy enough to think he can practice law in the UK.
  • staticneuron, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11your right viraz, Sony would be much more justified if aliens actually invaded and we had a shootout with them at one point in time......
  • beetlejuice101, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12Its SciFi for god sake, no different to a TV show or a book... again these guys proberly haven't even seen the game in true action or understand the plot/background story.

    Its not like the cathedral has been portrayed in a GTA style game with mass murders of innocent people inside, its a bloody SciFi war game with where the good guys fight the bad guys!
  • supermanred, on 10/11/2007, -2/+13This whole thing is stupid,

    does Doctor Who now have to get prermission from the Queen to fly a flying saucer into Big Ben? Will future episodes of the Simpsons need permission to feature American landmarks in them? How will this court action affect future and past movies / games? I bet you many existing places have been re-created in hollywood studios or in 3d worlds for video games in the past without permission. Will the makers of any movie featuring Iraq now be forced to pull their movies off the shelf until the Iraqi government or the specific landmarks in Iraq that are re-created give permission or recieve royalties?

    This is sooo stupid. The Bishop should be concentrating on keeping his priests from raping little boys in the back room and turn off his PS3. If anything, more kids will want to see the Cathedral after helping to save the world in a video game in which part of the righteous battle to save the world occurred inside the cathedral.

  • Kingfisherx, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12There's already precedent for this ***** and the CoE is on the wrong side. They had the same problem filming scenes for the Da Vinci Code. The Vatican refused Ron Howard access to shoot on site. So what did they do? They recreated all the cathedrals digitally from the ground up. Guess what that means? Brand new property rights cause virtual works are a brand new piece of art asset, which belongs to the creator. Just because you inspire something doesn't entitle you to owning what you inspire.
  • inactive, on 10/11/2007, -3/+13"in terms of copyright, the outside of a building is fair game because its in plain sight. The interior is not."

    Since construction began in 1215, the copyright holder is fairly certain to be long, long dead.

    Disney has fought (and bought) hard, but even they haven't managed to get copyright extended to 800 years. Surely the building, inside and out, is public domain by now?
  • maoa, on 10/11/2007, -9/+19I don't think it's just that they used the Church's interior without permission - it's a whole game genre that goes against the Church's beliefs. It's a bit like a game using Jack Thompson's house as a location for a violent shoot-out - the main difference being that Manchester Cathedral is a public place. I agree that legal action would be overkill, but you can understand the Church getting a bit upset. Furthermore, the article does specifically say they are "considering" legal action rather than "pursuing", so we perhaps Sony will apologise over the phone and we'll hear no more about it.

    I'd have expected this kind of reaction from Manchester Cathedral, anyway. I live in Manchester and know the Canon's son, and I remember they held a faith-affirming "Da Vinci Mass" in reaction to Dan Brown's film... they advertised through parody billboard posters and the works. It's not the first time they've overreacted to popular culture.
  • fragged23, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10how lame do you have to be. everyone wants to sue sony, must be what all the cool companies are doing now-a-days...
  • EbowUK, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10Shame on the BBC for sensationalist reporting.

    Must be a quiet day in the damn Big Brother house...
  • ICSU, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8"It is well known that Manchester has a gun crime problem,"

    At least they are ready for that alien invasion.
  • bashar129, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9I'm a religious person and I think this whole thing is absolutely absurd. Believing that having the cathedral in the game will in any way inhibit people from visiting or make them think that taking a gun to church is a good idea is absolutely ridiculous. It's sickening that people actually believe that these games are the cause of the violence in the world.
  • admirabumblebee, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11I dont waste my money on cable tv, eating out, leases, credit cards/loans etc...

    Make your own food, only buy what you have money IN your hand to buy and learn to live without stuff you'll end up bitching about anyways (tv, internet, expensive shoes/shirts/pants or whatever).

    Hell, a ps3 and a couple games cost less than 1 year of cable tv (which is about $60 a month here), and it's a lot more entertaining.

    I'd post my website but that'd probably not go over too well. I make high-end sport kites for a living :)
  • dunezone, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11Nah, they'll go after Spielberg for Jurassic Park instead.
  • Zoids, on 10/11/2007, -4/+12@ Admirabumblebee

    I wouldn't say it's better than Gears, but it's definately one of the best PS3 titles available here.
  • bashar129, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8The big guys are easy to kill, shotgun to the face seems to do the trick. Just dodge and weave around the Auger fire.
  • soulscreme, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7I'm in the same boat and I completely agree. Especially with it being an alternate take on the WWII era. In that era churches were frequently used as field hospitals, shelters, and military encampments. It's not like they made the scenario up out of thin air. It's part of being historically accurate. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd imagine that games like Call of Duty or Medal of Honor have had similar scenarios as it is part of the time period. And in those games you are killing human beings, not alien monsters. It is a shame that people in positions of power in the religious community seem to act so frequently without applying reason. I'm willing to bet that this bishop hasn't even seen the area played and has no clue as to the context in which the scene occurs.
  • Zoids, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Save the ammo from the shotgun in the level before, it makes the cathedral a breeze. Oh, and take down one of the Howlers with a grenade to get the "Fetch!" skill point.
  • redxii, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10If you make a game of a real city, you'll be sent to Gitmo accused that it was for terrorist training purposes.
  • gwolf, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Didn't call of Duty 2 do exactly the same thing; why are they just picking on resistance?
  • mitrovarr, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Actually, I'd say no. If writers have to get the owner's permission to use any buildings, businesses, names, etc. in their products, fiction set in the real world will cease to exist. There is just no way you could get the permission of everyone, especially since a lot of legal departments will just give you a flat 'no' since it's the safest answer, and a lot of places will require money or product placement or some other crap.

    The interior of the church is not trademarked, copywrited, or patented, so I have no idea what legal basis the church thinks it has, anyway.
  • ericrous, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Speaking as the guy who owns the image rights to the standard shipping crate, I would like to say that I hope this establishes a precedent.
  • Travis182, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8Just from the point of ownership...shouldn't a company acquire permission before using interiors of a building? Movie studios need permission to go shoot a movie in someone's building and put it on the screen, don't video game companies need permission to use someone's property whether it's based on reality or not?
  • SolipsistD, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7INAL but in the UK is not really a question of copyright on building interiors, but photographing without permission can be a trespass. However, I've heard a statement from Sony saying that they had all 'necessary permissions' and the views of the Cathedral's interior in the game are all in-game rendered and not photographic in any case.

    What would be more fun, would be if the church thought they could sue under religious law. England is still old fashioned enough and stupid enough not to have repealed the law of blasphemy. Even better, and less well known, is that England (and several other countries) still have the remnants of a completely separate legal system of Ecclesiastical Courts. These are run by the church and cover religious matters and some acts that take place on church property.

    We are already seeing the US government wanting to extend civil tax law to transactions that take place in Second Life and other virtual realities, so perhaps the Church of England will want to try and extend the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts to acts that take place in a virtual representation of one of their churches. Perhaps these virtual aliens had claimed sanctuary within the cathedral - that might make it illegal to shoot them ;-)
  • PhillAholic, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8I can't see this going anywhere. It's not like every single movie production that has used the New York skyline has gone around to every building owner and asked permission to do so. If they were aloud to come in and take pictures, then they should be aloud to use it in a SciFi game. What if I post a picture of me in the church next to a picture of me with a gun? Are they going to sue me for having both on my site?
  • Nick22, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10For christ sake, this is almost like having to ask the US government for permission to set a game in one of their cities. Hell, if a game had a scene that took place in my house, id be overjoyed!
  • ChrisofKent, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Listening to an interview with a representative of the Church on the radio, he stated that even if the action had taken place in an entirely made up church, he would still have called for the withdrawal of the game. He also stated that if it had been the 'holy place' of any other religion the Government would have been involved in calling for the game's withdrawal.

    I am sure that this is not the case.
  • BorisT, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5You guys keep saying "use" as if it was filmed like a movie, when it's really a rendition. Like a drawing.
  • meatmcguffin, on 10/11/2007, -6/+11"In religion, fantasy is reality."

    That's scary enough but the real danger is that in religion, reality is fantasy.
  • ViRaZ, on 10/11/2007, -5/+10Except that the battles in CoD and BF1942 actually happened.
  • fallenone05, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6The Greeks should sue Sony over having their gods in the God of War games.
  • inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Except this is a game set in the United Kingdom based on that country for a console made in Japan.

    Why does everything have to have something to do with the US on this site? This doesn't.
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