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Porsche Had World's First Hybrid 100 Years Ago

ecogeek.org — Surprise! The first hybrid car is a 100-year-old Porsche! The car had in-wheel electric motors and an onboard gas engine to recharge the batteries. This makes the car a serial hybrid (only one engine drives the wheels) like the Volt, instead of a paralell hybrid (both engines drive the wheels) like the Prius.

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  • theabbaguy, on 11/14/2007, -18/+1If the engine is in the wheel, would it be a whengine?
  • swordedge, on 11/14/2007, -8/+19the only thing a gas or diesel engine should do is charge batteries. This way it can be tiny. Electric motors are vastly better for cars than gas/diesel engines. Except for 0 rpm, the HP is nearly flat. At 0 rpm, its about 8 times higher, right when you need it most.
    • brufleth, on 11/14/2007, -5/+6The energy lost going from gas to kinetic energy goes up significantly because you're adding the additional generate electric power, store power, use stored power in electric motor steps. While an ICE is better off (more efficient and longer lasting) running at its sweet spot instead of revving high and low like in a typical ICE powered car it would require a study for the given car to determine if just an ICE is more efficient or an ICE to generator to battery to electric engine would be better. Different conditions also call for different means of power. On a highway where you're going a constant speed your serial recommendation goes out the window because you're just dumping energy from your ICE out the window to feed your extended energy chain.
      • PorcupineTree, on 11/14/2007, -1/+2Perhaps my physics is off, but wouldn't you use more a lot more energy burning fuel to charge the battery, than energy actually used to power the vehicle? Therefore, it would be more efficient just to power the vehicle by gasoline alone?
        • brufleth, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1In most vehicles and under most conditions yes. That was my point.

          I think in larger vehicles that are constantly stopping and going (like city buses) you might pass some threshold where the serial design is better. I'd want to see the study showing improved overall efficiency though. Including maintenance and manufacture footprints.
        • MindStalker, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2You would think so. Effectively gasoline (or diesel) engines that are used for power generation and engines that are used to automobiles are designed significantly different. Power generation motors are designed for efficiency period. There is no concern about horsepower. and they are either off or running at a constant RPM at peak efficiency. Electric motors on the other hand can run at peak efficiency at many different speeds and torque conditions. This system puts each motor in its ideal position.
          The problem of course lies in the issue of loss from power storage, which is huge. New battery technologies are being developed to assist in this issue, but its definitely an issue. Though even today its been shown that serial hybrids beat straight gasoline in Miles per Gallon, batter efficiency improvements will only see that go up.
      • stoanhart, on 11/14/2007, -0/+6Wrong brufleth!

        Your typical car ICE has something like 30% efficiency. Then you have to transfer that power through a gear box, down some axels, through some differentials and CV, etc. There is a ridiculous amount of lost energy in this entirely mechanical process.

        With a serial hybrid, you can use a very tiny optimized diesel generator which, as you said, always runs in its sweet spot. Diesel generators can have up to 60% efficiency. Storing in a battery is over 90%; supercapacitors, which are maturing now, are even better with almost no loss at all. The same goes for restoring power from a battery or capacitor. Finally, a DC brushless electric motor has over 90% efficiency too. So in the end, you get about 0.60 x 0.95 x 0.95 x .90 = %48.735 efficiency. Try that with a normal car!

        Also, that is 48.735% efficiency on a tiny engine, so you will be burning far less gas and doing it more efficiently. On top of that, you can drop the weight of the car considerably. No massive engine, no transmission, no powertrain. In addition to the weight, that saves a ton of friction, and removes some of the most common things that break on cars, due to lots of complicated moving parts. On top of that, you can have way better traction control, since you can adjust the speed of each wheel independently by software, rather than trying to build a physical differential.

        All in all, serial hybrid is the way to go if you're still going to burn gas. The best part is, when capacitor technology gets there, you can just plug your car in at night and never gas up. For long trips, you've still got the little ICE to charge your cells.

        Once I graduate from school and get some income going, I am going to be starting a serial hybrid conversion project. Should be loads of fun!

        Pascal

        • digudown, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1kool .. which school u r going to? Your business plan makes me interested.
    • cawpin, on 11/14/2007, -0/+10I burying you because you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Horsepower has nothing isn't the advantage electric motors have, torque is. Horsepower is a function of rotational speed and torque. At 0 RPM there is 0 horsepower. The TORQUE curve of an electric motor is linear AND flat. The HP curve is linear and NOT flat.
  • dlightning, on 11/14/2007, -2/+5Interesting article. So what was the top speed?
    • easypie, on 11/13/2007, -0/+4And what was the mileage?
    • Classico, on 11/13/2007, -5/+1I doubt it went anywhere near 40mph.
    • jtinz, on 11/13/2007, -0/+0I didn't find anything on the speed. But each of the motors delivered 2.5 HP.
  • ikkonenlev, on 11/14/2007, -4/+4It would be interesting to know the people will recollect through 100 years about the first development of the hydrogen engine? (: for example by BMW company ?
    • Amazetbm, on 11/13/2007, -1/+4BMW wasn't around 100 years ago. When they were founded in 1916, their core business was aircraft engines not automobiles.
      • Bluejaye, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2The usage of the word _will_ denotes a future tense. ikkonenlev is suggesting that 100 years *from now* people will look back at BMW's current hydrogen engine program and wonder why it wasn't popular.
        • ikkonenlev, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Yea blue ure right :( mean that will from now
        • Amazetbm, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Yeah okay. It's not the engine...it's the lack of infrastructure.
  • digggggggggg, on 11/14/2007, -1/+7Well, this whole Hybrid technology is actually a pretty old concept. Even the earliest submarines, for example, would use electric motors to move around when underwater, since they couldn't run their diesel engines.
    However, I had no idea that the concept was _that_ old
  • databoy, on 11/14/2007, -18/+43The problem with current electric hybrids is that they are using 100 year old technologies. DC motors are inefficient. 3 phase AC traction motors are more efficient but at 50/60 Hz they are too big and heavy and the alternator suffers from the same problem.

    Once the frequencies are increased to 440 Hz, ferric oxide can be used instead of iron which reduces the weight and motor size. Above 2KHz sizes to weight ratios is reduced farther. Open up a switched mode power supply from a computer and have a look at the transformer and compare it with a 50/60 Hz transformer.

    All the electronics and tooling exists to build a 2KHz 3 phase direct drive hub motors and alternator. One in each wheel and computer sever controlled. Too easy, except that vehicle manufacturers do not want you to have the technology.

    Currently, the money is made in the servicing and sale of spare parts after the vehicle sale. You cannot have a maintenance free vehicle which will run for 10 years without a service.

    Do you own research and you will be amazed at the cheap cost effective technologies available.
    • spawnfree, on 11/14/2007, -4/+3Hurray for the free market.
      we are free to buy what they offer us.
      I cant recommend trying to set up a company to make good electric cars either. You wont last long.
    • brufleth, on 11/14/2007, -4/+30What the F are you even talking about?

      Ferric oxide is rust... You know, iron that has combined with oxygen. What does this have to do with engine frequency and weight? Are you suggesting we make electric motors out of dust to save weight?

      A brushless DC motor is typically 85%-90% efficient. You're claims are weird mumbo jumbo bogus. Stop getting your science from tabloids.

      In addition, unless it is a plug in hybrid or built for the specific purpose of commuting or city driving the serial design doesn't make much sense. On long trips where you're doing high speed, long distance driving you'll just be running the ICE all the time to charge batteries to run electric motors. Effectively extending your energy chain and as any high school science student can tell you, when you add additional energy transformations your reduce your efficiency.

      Serial hybrid vs parallel hybrid argument aside you still are just spouting BS. Seriously, was your comment just to see how gullible people on digg are?
      • qpn6ph9q, on 11/14/2007, -0/+3Maybe he is talking about ferrite permanent magnets?? I am no expert in this field but his claims do sound rather bogus. Ferrite magnets can be used in either AC or DC motors, and the AC frequency has nothing whatsoever to do with it. They are simply more powerful and more efficient than regular magnets. PC power supplies I do know about; and they produce about 75W of low voltage DC, so I have no idea why this would be even mentioned with reference to AC motors. Strange. I do however agree wholeheartedly with his closing remarks.
      • databoy, on 11/14/2007, -3/+3If you want to be truly technical and scientific; the ferric oxide used in high frequency switched mode transformers, brushless motors, and high frequency motors is called ferrite. The rest of the technology is off the shelf technology already in use in industrial applications. I doubt that you have serviced a DC traction motor, single and three phase electric motors, switched mode power supplies, built high frequency switching transformers or wired 3 phase AC transmission lines. Get a job in the industrial electrical real world and you may learn something that is not printed in textbooks or posted on the net. An interesting phenomenon occurs when you increase the frequency to 2 KHz. The magnetic core is smaller that 50/60 Hz. The transformer turns ratio is smaller. From 2 turns per volt to half a turn per volt. Current is current at any frequency so the copper cross sectional area is the same. Overall the transformer is about 10% of the weight of a 50/60hz transformer. So are the hub motors. Using a 2KHz 3 phase traction system similar to the mining dump trucks will reduce the weight of the vehicle. At the moment it is weight which prohibits the manufacture of economical electric cars.

        Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)

        Ferrites are usually non-conductive ferrimagnetic ceramic compounds derived from iron oxides such as hematite (Fe2O3) or magnetite (Fe3O4) as well as oxides of other metals. Ferrites are, like most other ceramics, hard and brittle. In terms of the magnetic properties, ferrites are often classified as "soft" and "hard" which refers to their low or high coercitivity of their magnetism, respectively.

        Altogether there are sixteen known iron oxides. These compounds are either oxides (wüstite, hematite, β-Fe2O3, maghemite, γ-Fe2O3, ε-Fe2O3, magnetite, ferrihydrite), or hydroxides and oxide-hydroxides (goethite, akaganéite, lepidocrocite, feroxyhyte, bernalite, schwertmannite and green rusts).

        Some of these oxides are used in ceramic applications, particularly in glazing. Many metal oxides provide the colours in glazes after being fired at high temperatures.

        Iron(II) oxide (FeO) or ferrous oxide is also known as wüstite in its mineral form. The black-coloured powder in particular can cause explosions as it readily ignites.
        Iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3) or ferric oxide is also known as hematite or maghemite in its mineral form, or rouge as an industrial chemical. Purified, it is used as a coating in magnetic audio and computer media. In a dry or alkaline environment it can cause passivation and inhibits rust, yet it is also a major component of rust.
        Iron(II,III) oxide (Fe3O4) or ferrous ferric oxide is also known as magnetite or lodestone in its mineral form. Magnetite is an iron ore. This form of iron oxide tends to occur when iron corrodes underwater, and so is often found inside tanks or below the waterline of ships.

        Ferrite cores are used in electronic inductors, transformers, and electromagnets where the high electrical resistance of the ferrite leads to very low eddy current losses. They are commonly seen as a lump in a computer cable, called a ferrite bead, which helps to prevent high frequency electrical noise (radio frequency interference) from exiting or entering the equipment.
    • Davekcon, on 11/13/2007, -1/+2have you ever thought about the costs involved in transforming a traditional internal combustion car factory into an facility that manufactures a completely new electric car? Not to mention the losses in equipment and knowledge you encounter when your factory changes to electric motors. Combine this huge economic gamble with the idea that the new platform might not even be marketable, and its pretty clear why we aren't driving electric cars to work. Once one manufacturer accomplishes this transition and sells a successful electric car, you can bet all the other manufacturers will be forced to convert too.
    • digggggggggg, on 11/14/2007, -0/+3What you said makes absolutely no sense.
      First of all, a brushless DC motor is the same as an 'AC motor'. The only difference is that there are internal electronics that do the commutation, which basically converts the DC into AC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor . No hybrid vehicle would use a DC brush motor due to obvious problems with sparking, heat, and inefficiency.
      You talk about frequencies. What do these frequencies mean? You seem to imply that this is the frequency of the AC power supply to the motor, which makes no sense. The frequency of the AC is proportional to the speed that the motor is spinning. To make a motor spin faster, you would gradually increase the frequency of the alternating current. See this article for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_motor
      Then, there's the thing about ferric oxide. As brufleth mentioned, ferric oxide is rust. How would you build any part of a motor, rotor or stator, out of rust? You tie this in with the 'frequency'. I can't imagine why these two things are related.
      Finally, I just wanted to point out that modern hybrid vehicles don't use 100 year old technologies. Do you really think that they just hooked up a DC brush motor to a potentiometer to control the velocity? A modern hybrid uses computer controlled commutation to control a brushless motor. The frequency of this commutated signal is proportional to the velocity at which they want the motor to spin. The electronics of a hybrid vehicle, like the Prius, are very well designed and require surprisingly little maintenance, it's the battery that ends up eating up most of the maintenance cost.

      Long story short, if you want to make it sound like the automakers are intentionally withholding technology from us for the sake of profit, I would recommend that you try to spew random jargon about battery technology. The motors that they use are exceptionally well designed, contrary to what you believe.
    • p0ss, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1two words

      "Joe cells"

      google it
  • gdungan, on 11/14/2007, -1/+9hell, the Flinstones had an alternative source of energy for their cars...why can't we figure it out??
  • druidmerlyn, on 11/14/2007, -0/+3Just to add a little side bar trivia here, the diesel engine was originally ran on vegetable oil.
    • bigsteve, on 11/14/2007, -0/+2Hence why it is so easy nowadays to convert diesel vehicles to run on vegetable oil. Honda is apparently working on a version of their Accord that runs on diesel.
  • linuxrebel, on 11/14/2007, -5/+14Buried for inaccuracy. You see June 8 1948 is considered the official birth date of Porsche. Near as I can figure 2007 - 1948 is < 100. For reference I add this link http://www.dennigcars.com/history_of_porsche.htm
    • Zygo, on 11/14/2007, -9/+5Indeed, it's bull crap. 100 years ago the founder of Porsche wasn't even born yet.
    • andibarnes, on 11/14/2007, -1/+13@ Zygo - Ferdinand Porsche was born in 1875, so he definitely was around at this time. Though this isn't truly a Porsche, the great man was involved in its creation, for a Viennese company called Jakob Lohner and co. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche)
      • Zygo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+6You're right, I was talking about his son.
  • easypie, on 11/14/2007, -6/+2So What?
  • fubuvsfitch, on 11/14/2007, -2/+1Honest question, how is only one engine driving the weels when there are four motors in the wheels themselves?
    • Circuitsoft, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1One engine drives a generator to charge one bank of batteries. Then, four motors are switched onto the battery bank to drive the car.
    • brufleth, on 11/14/2007, -1/+4It is worded poorly. As stated there is just one internal combustion engine which charges batteries which then drives the motor in each wheel.

      Since the energy chain is always longer there are situations where you will always be less efficient than just an ICE. Since this was 100 years ago I would suspect the generation and storage of electrical energy wasn't so great and this car design was probably scrapped for being inefficient and under performing.
      • fubuvsfitch, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Thanks. I figured it was just worded poorly.
  • troon, on 11/13/2007, -4/+0This predates Porsche by decades, and those look like drum brakes to me.
  • troon, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Oh hang on, here it is. I was wrong:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_ ...
  • mCanada, on 11/14/2007, -3/+1I've always wondered (maybe this is in the works): Why not produce an electric car that is primarily electric, but has a backup combustion engine in case you run out of electricity. I've heard that most consumers wouldn't buy electric because they're worried about being stranded. Wouldn't this approach ensure that there's a backup? ie. a reverse hybrid?
  • alchemist27, on 11/13/2007, -2/+1And now there at it again...

    http://digg.com/mods/Porsche_Cayenne_Hybrid_INFO_P ...
    • jj101, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Havent seen the hybrid but the regular Cayenne is seriously ugly.
      • alchemist27, on 11/14/2007, -0/+0they hybrid cayenne looks just the same, except it has ugly decals stating that it's a hybrid on the side of the car, as seen in the pics
  • maccribipod, on 11/13/2007, -2/+0nice story
  • tupperbacharach, on 11/14/2007, -5/+2I wonder if the current difference between a porcupine and a Porsche applied back in 1907: On a porcupine, the pricks are on the outside.
  • jtinz, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1The car is a Lohner-Porsche. It was constructed by Ferdinand Porsche, who worked for Lohner at the time. The car was presented at the world fair.
  • neiltc13, on 11/13/2007, -1/+3Buried as spam. Original link:
    http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0711/gal ...
  • Error601, on 11/13/2007, -2/+2Duh. Why do people have such a hard time understanding hybrid is just a stupid buzz word for old technology?
    • Billions, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2So, what do you suggest we call it? You have something less than five letters and two syllables that everyone understands? No? Maybe 'people' aren't the ones having a hard time 'understanding.'
      • bigsteve, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Hmm, what *will* we call this technology where combustion and electric work together... perhaps if we had a word that described something with two modes, or technologies, working together...
  • atdakore, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2at the beginning of the horseless carriage era, there were options other than just internal combustion to get the wheels rolling.
    The Oil industry eventually worked out the threat of non-commodity powered vehicles, and bought out a lot of electric car companys.
    Just look at how many electric car companies were registered at the turn of the last century.
    Does anybody remember the electric tram?
  • avengingturnip, on 11/13/2007, -3/+1Taking the electricity down to the wheels, huh? So what happens when it drives through a puddle?
    • PDubNYC, on 11/13/2007, -1/+0god you're an idiot. Gee, I sure hope the headlights don't short out when it's raining....
      • avengingturnip, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1I'm the idiot and you cannot see the difference between the two? One is totally inside the vehicle, sealed, and runs on 12 VDC power. The other is outside the vehicle, underneath exposed to the elements, and runs on a much higher voltage.
  • CovardeAnonimo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+4train locomotives have been running on an hybrid system for decades now (diesel electric), it always amused me why the same system wasn't in use for cars.
  • Billions, on 11/13/2007, -0/+2Too bad this tech was left alone for so long. We coulda been off petroleum fuels by now!
  • arnoldrimmer, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Ferdinand Porsche's desigend also the Beetle

    Germany FTW
  • SecondLaw, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1The book "The Electric Car" by Michael Westbrook has a lot of interesting history in it. We think of it as being new technology, but they were very prevalent at the last turn of the century.
  • spritom, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Buried as inaccurate.

    Ferdinand was 26 at the time, but working for other companies, in this case, Ludwig Lohner. While the model had the System Lohner-Porsche name, it was Lohner property, just as the VW Beetle, which Ferdinand also worked in the design, was property of VW. The Porsche company wasn't founded until 1931.
  • joeanon, on 11/14/2007, -4/+2I agree the MOST likely reason electric cars have not been made is a fear they will become..too reliable.

    There is not other reasonable explination as to why companies refuse to make these cars for so long and companies like GM pulling their electric car even against their customers wishes.

    That is unusualy for corporations to make a product like this that gets decent reviews and then mysteriously stop. Either it was secretly poisoning people or it was too good for their bottom line.

    The new hybrids with battery packs are the real buys I think or they'll be here soon. Lead Acid isn't too great for the envrionment, but completely recyclable some 96% of car batteries are recycled. So, the electric car is really just here and waiting. Most people could already get buy on electric if someone would mass produce a cheap electric or conversion kit. The hybrids are just a step up, but I wonder how they didn't think to make these cars chargable in the first place. Who doesn't know that generating power at a power plant is more effcient than using a small generator ? Certainly you'd think hybrid engineers would know that and re-thinking the fuel strategy. Perhaps they are obsessed with using lithium ion batties. A nice choice, but seemingly not made in bulk enough to meet demand at the right price.

    Well the answers seems to be a solid state battery and I do think it will consumer ready in 20 years or even less as the energy crises forces change, however to actually get it in wide use still takes time, especially with todays government. So, I think we are more or less waiting on that and hybrids are the best INTO to the electric fuel revolution.

    The government of WW2 was able to build a replacement transport fleet in 4 days in cooperative shipyard around the coutnry (yes this country). it took us about that long just to react to Katrina. Being rich makes us fat and lazy. Mexican workers are the only ones willing to actual work still because they haven't sat around for 2-3 generations enjoying the spoils of excess. I think that's the biggest problem with American's losing jobs, we have become inferior workers in many cases. Poorer skinnier people are just willing to work more hours and that's what really gets it done. You can bust ass, but you can rarely be more productive than someone who simply puts in more hours. That being the case, you'd think we would become a society of thinkers... which I find humorous, but in a way we are thinkers I guess. We think about how to make money with the least amount of effort, we think about guns, abortions and gays a lot, thinknig about whats on TV next. We are certainly busier thinking than we are being productive.
    • Porch, on 11/14/2007, -0/+2They do make electric conversion kits for a lot of cars. And Toyota made a pure electric Rav4. Along with Honda. If you want a pure electric car, then you can get one.
  • mattclare, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1"This makes the car a serial hybrid (only one engine drives the wheels) like the Volt," .. or a locomotive
  • Homerr, on 11/14/2007, -1/+1Hybrid does not always mean green.
  • designerutah, on 11/13/2007, -1/+1Tell me something. Why hasn't anyone built this concept into an off-road vehicle? Think of the ground clearance possible with no axles, and the flexibility that computer-controlled individual electric engines on each wheel could provide. Or has this been built and I just haven't heard of it?
    • Porch, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Because you need some way to hold the wheels on a vehicle. Be it axle or other method. Drive line angles are not really an issue.
      That and the batteries are heavy and the less weight the better off-road.
  • Bodhinature, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1So? What have they done for us lately? A turbo SUV that gets 12mpg. They were ahead of their time when nobody even knew what a car was. Now that we need some forward thinking designs we focus on what they've done 100 years ago?
  • ghgh1212, on 11/13/2007, -3/+0come on people now, drive a hybrid
  • jimbo92107, on 11/14/2007, -1/+1This tells me two things.
    First, the serial hybrid concept was technically feasible 100 years ago.
    Second, it was recognized way back then as more efficient and mechanically simple than mechanical drive trains.
    With today's advanced manufacturing technology, producing a serial hybrid would be easy - simpler and cheaper to make than the cars made now.
    Why isn't it happening?
    • Porch, on 11/14/2007, -1/+1Assuming you are talking about motors in the wheels.
      Trying to make motors with no gear box that will turn less then 1RPM, yet take a car up to 100RPM is not an easy task.
      And the motors are heavy. Putting 50 or 100lb motors in the wheels will kill any suspension performance. Basic suspension engineering 101. Unstrung weight bad. It would be the worst handling car of all time. Go strap 25 pound weights on your feet and run around the block. Then put them in a backpack and do the same run. Now tell me what is better.
    • apeweek, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1It is happening - in other countries. Here are some Chinese EVs and serial hybrids - look at the prices - they start at just $4500. Yes, that's right, I didn't leave off a zero.

      http://fevehicle.com/services.html
  • SaxmanTrav, on 11/14/2007, -2/+2Buried as innacurate: It doesn't look like a 911, therefore it's not a Porsche. Everyone knows they don't know how to design something new.
  • starguy, on 11/13/2007, -0/+1Every stick shift car on the road today with an electric starter is a 'hybrid'. Have fun moving around electrically by engaging the starter with your key off... great for getting yourself the F out of traffic when your too heavy to friggin push car dies in the road.
  • atarijedi, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1The best thing to do in my opinion is scrap the hybrid, and create cars that use redox batteries, then retrofit the current fuel supply system to use the redox fluid instead of gasoline/diesel. The most popular redox fluid is a vanadium based solution, so instead of refilling your car with gas, it would be refilled with this vanadium based fluid, the only thing I can see being a problem is setting up some sort of pump/vacuum system, so the stations can suck out the old acid, and pump in new acid, and the fact that we will have retards in constant contact with acid.
  • gnatinator, on 11/14/2007, -0/+2Download/Watch "Who Killed The Electric Car?"
  • heliarcer, on 11/14/2007, -0/+0Umm Porsche was founded in 1931... as a DESIGN company, and still functions primarily as one, LaCie has several hard drives that are designed by Porsche. Ferdinand Porsche was alive 100 years ago, he was working for Jakob Lohner & Co when he helped to design the "hybrid;" however, it was not a Porsche; the first Porsche was a 356A look alike named the "64" and was build in '39. What is even more interesting is around the turn of the century there were several "hybrid" and even electrical and biofuel cars competing with one another. Henry Ford meant for the model-T to run off of ethanol (E100).
  • databoy, on 11/14/2007, -1/+1I have re-written my previous post to clarify some issues raised.

    The problem with current electric hybrids is that they are using 100 year old technologies. DC motors and generators are heavy and inefficient otherwise AC would not have been developed. 3 phase AC traction motors and alternators are very efficient torque to weight ratio, but at 50/60 Hz they are too big and heavy to be used for the domestic automobile. In the mining industry in Western Australia, they use diesel driven electric generators electric traction motor dump trucks manufactured in the USA or Japan. The same technology is used in the heavy haulage railway locomotives carting the iron ore to the ports.

    Technologies exist to scale the electric generation and traction system of the mining dump trucks and locomotives if different materials are used.

    Using a 2 KHz AC power generation system, an alternative magnetic material to iron can be used. The material is manufactured from ferric oxide and commonly called ferrite. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)

    Why 2KHz? Mainly because the weight of the transformers, generators and motors are approximately 10% of a 50/60Hz AC system. Also the turns ratio can be reduced from 2 turns per volt to half a turn per volt. Current is current at any frequency, so the cross section of the copper remains the same except there is about 50% saving in the copper used and probably can be reduced to 80%.

    The end product is a generation and traction system that weighs 10% of a DC or 50/50 Hz traction system. Direct drive hub motors using solid state speed control have been in use for over 20 years. You will find them in floppy drives and high end direct drive turntables. They have amazing torque to size ratio. The same technology can be used to build high torque computer servo controlled hub traction motors for domestic motor vehicles.

    The Japanese have developed ceramic piston and cylinder internal combustion motors which do not require lubrication. Ceramics shrink when the temperature increases and also do not require an oil lubricant at the operating temperature. The end product is a more efficient motor which does not burn oil leading to less exhaust emissions.

    In summary, diesel electric dump truck and locomotive technology is already being manufactured and in use in the mining industry. Why, because AC electric traction is far superior to diesel/petrol traction and can be infinitely speed controlled. Scaling the same technology to motor vehicles using modern ferric oxide (ferrite) compounds and using state of the art electronics and computer servo control is feasible and economical on a mass production scale.

    Too easy; except that vehicle manufacturers do not want you to have the technology. Currently, the real money is made in the servicing of the vehicle and the sale of spare parts after the vehicle sale. You cannot have a maintenance free vehicle which will run for 10 years without a service. Vested interests will go bankrupt. Electric motors on the other hand use sealed long life ball bearings and will run 10 years without being serviced. I have seen 30 year old motors which were installed in industrial environments which have never been serviced or bearings replaced.

    Being a sceptic is healthy. Unless you have worked in the industrial electrical servicing industry, you may never encounter the technologies in use. Don’t take my word for it, Google the net, and do your own technology research. Open up a switched mode power supply and compare it with a 50/60 Hz transformer of the same rating. Weigh both and compare them. Remove the iron core from a conventional transformer, unwind the copper and weight it. Do the same with a switched mode transformer. Try turning a floppy disk with your fingers, then open up the disk traction motor. Observe the construction of the motor coils and the servo chip.

    Think about this; Tesla was working on high frequency AC transmission in the 1920’s and 30’s. If Tesla had already designed the AC transmission system, he would have designed the AC traction motors. Where are they?
  • hydrokool, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1Porsche was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche and Ferry Porsche. This is not even an accurate history of which company did what, boooo.
  • thetimehascome, on 01/23/2008, -0/+1this was news to me. i knew diesel-electric locomotives existed in the 1920's but, not cars! Please check out the AFS triinity extreme hybrid 150. we need to get the info out!!
  • nkthen, on 02/26/2008, -1/+1Very interesting...
    http://www.hybridcarsmoney.com
  • pazolozap, on 03/14/2008, -0/+0More people should learn about this. EV technology is really becoming impressive, like the new Zap that does 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds. Electric is looking more and more like the way to go.
  • trev0006, on 04/16/2008, -0/+1Sometimes I wonder why certain car companies bury these ideas when in fact it is the technology of the future. I think they are paid off not to continue their research for money reasons. http://www.dpccars.com/porsche/porsche.htm http://www.discountpartcenter.com/
  • gormanwvzb, on 07/25/2008, -0/+0I read a really good article about this (http://economicefficiency.blogspot.com/2008/07/hyb ...

    I have to wonder though, what if gas goes back to $3.00, will the reason to own a hybrid still be there?
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