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84 Comments
- jeffness, on 06/30/2009, -0/+14You're right to a certain extent. Ice that floats on top of water would not increase sea level, but ice melts that are already on land such as those in Greenland or Antarctica would increase world sealevels in theory.
- toconnor, on 06/30/2009, -1/+13The ice is currently above water.
- toconnor, on 06/30/2009, -5/+16Thank God the warming period has ended!
- inactive, on 06/30/2009, -4/+14A couple reasons I'm not worried:
- We're intelligent humans, which means we adapt to survive
- Short-term trends are a poor way of predicting long-term climate movement, so the seas are just as likely to rise as they are to fall - jeffness, on 06/30/2009, -1/+9how exactly does anyone propose to "protect" the keys, or any island, or any coast for that matter from the supposed threat of sea level rises? I fail to see an engineering solution that would be practical. I don't think it's practical to build levees around an island. I think it's best to just discourage those living there from staying there. Insurer's shouldn't insure sure-losses and as soon as people lose their homes they'll have to move.
atleast that's how it is supposed to work; practical disincentives to encourage risk avoidance.. But i know that's not how it really works. PEople living there expect the government to build them 10-20 foot levies around their entire island and then reimburse them for their loss when their malinvestment disappears from the globe.
oh well. - AraleNorimaki, on 06/30/2009, -0/+7Under the sea,
Under the sea,
There'll be no accusations,
Just friendly crustaceans
Under the Seeeeeeeeeeeeea! - smdyson, on 06/30/2009, -0/+6Here's a suggestion. Don't live in areas below sea level. That is all.
- Elliuotatar, on 06/30/2009, -1/+7Planning? The keys? What's there to plan for? If the water level rises three feet everything's gonna be underwater. You can raise your house on stilts, but what good will that do? They're not gonna build high ocean walls around all the beautiful islands and ruin the beaches to keep the water out. And if they did, then they'd have to install pumps like New Orelans just to keep the place from flooding during a hurricane.
I guess it's possible they might build such a wall for Key West since it's pretty urbanized, but most of the other keys don't have much on them. - Hraes, on 06/30/2009, -1/+6That's what I came here to say, actually... it looks like Florida is triply-Roman-prepared.
- inactive, on 06/30/2009, -1/+6There is a considerable volume of water sitting above the waterline.
True that only 10% is above the waterline and in theory, the displacement of water should result in a null effect as ice is also a little less than 10% larger larger in volume than its liquid counterpart...........
The big concern is the huge continent like sheets above the waterline.
I think that we will see island sinkage as more building is allowed on these sandbars! And it really is only because we don't belong there. - Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -2/+7"Short-term trends are a poor way of predicting long-term climate movement, so the seas are just as likely to rise as they are to fall."
You seem to be ignorant for why the seas rise and fall and are apparently under the impression that the world's oceanographers are just as ignorant as your self. Not true. - publiclurker, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4I think a lot of the ice on the southern ice cap is actually on land.
- jester11, on 06/30/2009, -2/+6Wow this was uploaded 39 minutes ago, the keys must be underwater by now.
- whiplash65, on 06/30/2009, -9/+13god damn what a bunch of alarmists
- sshofkom, on 06/30/2009, -4/+8It would only drop if you assume the ice is already floating in the ocean. Much of the melting glaciers are on land masses dufus.
- s0krat3z, on 06/30/2009, -0/+4The temperature of the ocean water is rising. Thermal expansion is the primary contributor of increasing sea levels. It is quite quantifiable, and has almost doubled in recent years. Glacial contributions are less quantifiable, less predictable, and less significant.
- bratterscain, on 06/30/2009, -7/+11Am I the only one bothered that when typed, capital i looks like lowercase l? FFS, there's only like an infinite amount of shapes we can use for an uppercase i or lowercase L so they're not the same. WTF were they thinking when they came up with this? Can we please have a font where the uppercase I has the top and bottom bars on it?
- Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+4Oh, that is true for the entire globe is it? All the islands and sea side shore all decided to start sinking at once?
- inactive, on 06/30/2009, -1/+4I think the issue is that most glaciers are on top of land, so when melted the water would run off into the oceans. You are correct; the ice caps melting would have no effect on sea levels, as the water's flotation would be offset by its density.
- Jordan117, on 06/30/2009, -2/+5All you folks scoffing at this supposed alarmism: Tuvalu, one of the lowest-lying nations on Earth, is already experiencing the effects of sea level rise, and its government is taking climate change as seriously as terrorism. From Wikipedia:
"At its highest, Tuvalu is only 4.5 m above sea level, and could be one of the first nations to experience the effects of sea level rise caused by climate change. Not only could parts of the island be flooded, the rising saltwater table could destroy deep rooted food crops such as coconut and taro. In 1978, a tide gauge was installed at Funafuti by the University of Hawaii and measured a sea rise of 1.2 millimetres per year over 23 years, a figure consistent with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) global mean estimate of 1 to 2 mm per year over the twentieth century."
From the Prime Minister of the nation:
"We live in constant fear of the adverse impacts of climate change. For a coral atoll nation, sea level rise and more severe weather events loom as a growing threat to our entire population. The threat is real and serious, and is of no difference to a slow and insidious form of terrorism against us."
See also:
http://www.tuvaluislands.com/warming.htm
for a few dozen articles about the problem. - Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+4"No dumbass but those islands have been sinking since man fist inhabited them but some how they became the poster child for the religion of global warming as if man has any thing to do with their eventual demise "
So all the world islands have been sinking for 10k but only now is anybody noticing. Damm that is dumb.
"as for the oceans rising yea they and have been for over 10k years or since the last ice age"
What is that mechanism? You do know that Milakovitch cycles and irradiance from the sun have been ruled out? What is your natural mechanism genius? Come on now point out to me using peer reviewed information what all those astrophysicists and and geophysicists have missed.
"but suddenly it is all "man made global warming " ***** and at an annual average of less than 1/4 inch per year i think we have some time before we really need to get concerned."
Argument from Incredulity. Logic Fail. - smdyson, on 06/30/2009, -3/+6Exactly. Then when they don't rise, because they won't, they will expect praise that their taxation worked and stopped global warming dead in it's tracks!!!
Hooray for taxation! I don't know who got these taxes. I bet they convert all of our taxes into coins and put them in bags. Then use those as "sand bags" to hold back the water. Or.... they taxes will go to God knows who and we'll get taxed for greed as opposed to action. - enantiodromia, on 06/30/2009, -3/+6you, and all your supporters, assume all ice must be already floating in the ocean, for this to be correct. some estimates put the the amount of ice which rests on land, and not floating in the sea, at 90%.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/HannaBerenblit ... - OriginalLucid1, on 06/30/2009, -3/+6They could be, but they aren't. I've been told for twenty years that twenty years from now the polar ice caps will be gone. There still there, thicker than ever.
- Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+4So sea level rise a giant conspiracy of the world oceanographers now is it?
- Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -0/+2If you would pay attention to the evidence then you would know that the laws of thermodynamics have not been suspended because you do not like government action. Grow up.
- RonPauls, on 06/30/2009, -2/+4who is King Florida Keys the 3rd?
- Larsonal777, on 06/30/2009, -1/+3I logged in to comment on my wondering what Keys III was and why we care that they were prepared.
- Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+3"The sea levels have been rising for the last 18,000 years.. and there's no reason to believe that the changes we see today are in any way special."
Milankovitch cycles. Learn it and know we are not in the middle of one:
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac ... - offrdbandit, on 06/30/2009, -5/+7"how exactly does anyone propose to "protect" the keys, or any island, or any coast for that matter from the supposed threat of sea level rises?"
Taxes + a Czar or two + a special committee + a few "let me be clear" speeches + more taxes.
Sounds like a plan to me! - bratterscain, on 06/30/2009, -0/+2Correct. Greenland, as I understand it, has the largest percentage of land ice and has been following a slow but steady melting trend. I tried to find a reference so I doubt what I said but its melting ice would have a significant impact on sea levels.
- itstodd, on 06/29/2009, -8/+10I have some ocean from property in Arizona I will trade you for your "sinking" beach front property!
- Trent1492, on 07/02/2009, -2/+4"OMG with a temporary sea rise increase to 2mm a year the Florida keys will be under water in just under 1000 years what are we to do."
Why do say temporary? What empirical evidence do you have that the sea level rise is temporary? How do you square your above statement that the sea level rise is temporary with your insistence that current sea level rise is natural? Got inconsistency? Oh, btw if you had been paying attention you would know that rate is predicted to accelerate.
"your dumbass head was stuck so far up your ass you might read something other than mother jones and greenpeace press releases and figure out just as you started above the poles melted and then stopped and then started again wow normal climate variation whod have thunk it"
The Genetic Fallacy of Reasoning. Just because something has happened in the past for one reason does preclude the same event happening for another. Logic Fail. You really are that stupid. Oh, do you remember you insisting that the ocean has been rising for the past 10k years? Suddenly that argument has gotten thrown out of the window. Convenient.
"Explain the mid evil warming period no co2 there,..."
No. You explain why you have not just committed another argument from ignorance fallacy of reasoning. Btw, I do not think that any one has failed to notice you moving on to another Denier talking point. What is the matter? Do not go the chops to go in depth in one area? Also you may be interested in the following NOAA article on the MWP:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medie ...
"In summary, it appears that the late 20th and early 21st centuries are likely the warmest period the Earth has seen in at least 1200 years."
"but then your blind to anything but your holy scripture on the religion of global warming and the evil corporations so why bother arguing with such an inexperienced dumbass"
I think you rather suspect your incompetence, but your pride and ideology will not allow you to admit the ignorance. I suspect that is why you are still here. BTW, you are the one who is ignoring the science. Which part of the laws of thermodynamics has been suspended, pray tell?
"Wait 10 years until your gas costs 15 bucks a gallon,..."
How does the price of gasoline in ten years make the geophysics of climate change go away?
"...your car is the size of a cracker box..."
How does the size of a car negate Stephan-Boltzman Law on Black Body Radiation?
"... and you live in a 500 sq foot house..."
How does the size of my house make the Suess Effect disappear from reality?
"... all the while paying exorbitant taxes"
What does U.S Federal Tax policy have to do with the reality of warming troposphere and an cooling stratosphere?
" ...for the so called global warming while your up to your as in snow ,..."
You are aware that higher temperatures, means more water vapor in the air, which mean more precipitation? How is it you seem so ignorant of the fact that it is possible for it to be too cold to snow? In other words, increased temperatures can lead to more snow. Yep your stupid.
"hey how about this report by the EPA showing global warming is a hoax
http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004 ..."
Oh! Lookie Another talking point!
A. It is not a EPA report.
B. Neither authors are climate scientist.
C. Neither offer much in the way of peer reviewed science of any sort. As Real Climate says:
"But it gets worse, what solid peer reviewed science do they cite for support? A heavily-criticised blog posting showing that there are bi-decadal periods in climate data and that this proves it was the sun wot done it. The work of an award-winning astrologer (one Theodor Landscheidt, who also thought that the rise of Hitler and Stalin were due to cosmic cycles), a classic Courtillot paper we’ve discussed before, the aforementioned FoS web page, another web page run by Doug Hoyt, a paper by Garth Paltridge reporting on artifacts in the NCEP reanalysis of water vapour that are in contradiction to every other reanalysis, direct observations and satellite data, a complete reprint of another un-peer reviewed paper by William Gray, a nonsense paper by Miskolczi etc. etc. I’m not quite sure how this is supposed to compete with the four rounds of international scientific and governmental review of the IPCC or the rounds of review of the CCSP reports…."
Real Climate
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009 ...
Oh, here is another gem from Real Climate:
"They don’t even notice the contradictions in their own cites. For instance, they show a figure that demonstrates that galactic cosmic ray and solar trends are non-existent from 1957 on, and yet cheerfully quote Scafetta and West who claim that almost all of the recent trend is solar driven!"
In short you and your elk are idiots.
"...and see if your youthful rebellion has finally caught a clue and learned it was all ***** to take your money away from you to stop a supposed calamity that was never there..."
Once again, how does fiscal policy of any sort negate geophysics? - Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -0/+2"Today is the day the seas stopped rising,..."
I am going to provide you with the full text of Obama's speech please point out to me the appropriate section of the speech you partially quoted.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/28/barack-ob ...
"If you actually bother to look at he bloody temperature readings and compare them with last years and the year before ... you will see that we are going into a cooling down cycle."
Do you know what the word statistically significant mean? How about you go find out how climate is defined and then learn why you come across as total tool. - Trent1492, on 07/01/2009, -1/+3your such an idiot "
And you suck Exxon-Mobile Dick.
"The island I speak of is Tuvalu but you seem to ignorant to figure that out and yes it has been subsiding since it was first inhabited( it is a coral atoll and is common scientific knowledge that most atoll islands do sink because it is the living coral that build the island and they don't live well on dry ground )"
Who gives a ***** for your lame ass excuse to do nothing? The whole god dam ocean is rising and it is because human have raised the temperature. How does that Exxon-Mobile propaganda taste in your mouth? What part of GLOBAL SEA RISE do you fail to understand?
"as for the oceans rising for the last 10k years ..."
Actually you keep on making this assertion but without any empirical evidence to back up the claim that the current sea rise is natural. Which brings me to the next bit of your moron thoughts. If you think that sea rise is normal why do keep on trying to deny that it is happening by pointing to individual cases where it may not be the case? Got self contradiction?
"...you were not such a dumbass simple logic tells you that 3-5 miles of glacial ice built up on the continents that melted and continues to melt would cause the oceans to rise ( about 300' since the low point during the last ice age )"
What logic is that? The type found in Disney Land? Yo Ding Dong. Which part of "show me the mechanism" are you failing to grasp? Do you think ice just decides to up an melt? Listen ***** Head. Unless you come up with a MECHANISM and have EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to back up you are just another suck dick for the fossil fuel industry? Got it ***** Tart? - Trent1492, on 07/01/2009, -2/+4"so In your little world the last ice age ended10k years ago because some cave men were burning wood and caused global warming ?"
No moron, no one is saying that. If you pay attention to what the geophysicist, astrophysicists are actually saying and stop swallowing with such enthusiasm the fossil fuel industries propaganda, then you would be aware of such factors that influence the Earth's climate as the changes in the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit, precession, etc. Do you always erect straw man positions that your opponents never take? What a ***** head tactic.
"no one knows why we have ice ages and why we come out of ice ages into warmer periods,..."
No your just ignorant of the cause and your over inflated ego does not allow you to investigate the science. Care to get a little knowledge into that peanut head, of yours?
Here you go Milankovitch Cycles:
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac ...
"emperical evidence from nasa is that good enough little boy"
You either do not understand what you linked or your being dishonest and hoping that nobody will read the link. I think it is the former because you are that stupid. Here allow me to demonstrate your incompetent reading comprehension skills:
You have claimed that the sea has been rising for the past 10,000 years yet in the article you linked to we find the following periods where the sea level actually decreased.
"By the mid-Holocene period, 6000-5000 years ago,*GLACIAL MELTING HAD ESSENTIALLY CEASED, while ongoing adjustments of Earth's lithosphere due to removal of the ice sheets gradually decreased over time. Thus, sea level continued to drop in formerly glaciated regions and rise in areas peripheral to the former ice sheets. AT MANY LOW-LATITUDE OCEAN ISLANDS and coastal sites distant from the effects of glaciation, SEA LEVEL STOOD SEVERAL METERS HIGHER THAN PRESENT during the mid-Holocene and HAS BEEN FALLING EVER SINCE."
In the next sentence of the passage already quoted above we find a description of the past few thousand years of sea level rise, "Over the past few thousand years, the rate of sea level rise remained fairly low, probably not exceeding a FEW TENTHS of a MILLIMETER PER YEAR." So tell me, how do you reconcile those quoted passages with your assertions about sea level rise? Which part of "By the mid-Holocene period, 6000-5000 years ago, glacial melting had essentially ceased..." Do you fail to understand? What part of the sea level use to be higher at low latitude islands (Tuvalu hello!) and has been dropping ever since do you not get?
Then in the next paragraph we find a comparison to the present rate of sea level rise to the past:
"Twentieth century sea level trends, however, are substantially higher that those of the last few thousand years. The current phase of accelerated sea level rise appears to have begun in the mid/late 19th century to early 20th century, based on coastal sediments from a number of localities. *TWENTIETH CENTURY GLOBAL SEA LEVEL, as determined from tide gauges in coastal harbors, HAS BEEN INCREASING BY 1.7-1.8 MM/YR, apparently related to the recent climatic warming trend. Most of this rise comes from warming of the world's oceans and melting of mountain glaciers, which have receded dramatically in many places especially during the last few decades. Since 1993, an even higher sea level trend of about 2.8 mm/yr has been measured from the TOPEX/POSEIDON satellite altimeter. Analysis of longer tide-gauge records (1870-2004) also suggests a possible late 20th century acceleration in global sea level."
So in short we have gone from "glacial melting had essentially ceased," and any many measured rate of rise was in "a few tenths of a millimeter per year" to the present rate of "2.8 mm/yr". Do you at all understand the rate of acceleration of the sea level during the 20th century, or are you innumerate too? All of this information comes directly from your link. So in short your an incompetent suck dick for corporate interests.
*Emphasis added by this author. - Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+3Dear King Canut,
It is rising and no amount of Denial will keep it from rising. - Trent1492, on 07/01/2009, -1/+3"your such an idiot "
And you suck Exxon-Mobile Dick.
"The island I speak of is Tuvalu but you seem to ignorant to figure that out and yes it has been subsiding since it was first inhabited( it is a coral atoll and is common scientific knowledge that most atoll islands do sink because it is the living coral that build the island and they don't live well on dry ground )"
Who gives a ***** for your lame ass excuse to do nothing? The whole god dam ocean is rising and it is because human have raised the temperature. How does that Exxon-Mobile propaganda taste in your mouth? What part of GLOBAL SEA RISE do you fail to understand?
"as for the oceans rising for the last 10k years ..."
Actually you keep on making this assertion but without any empirical evidence to back up the claim that the current sea rise is natural. Which brings me to the next bit of your moron thoughts. If you think that sea rise is normal why do keep on trying to deny that it is happening by pointing to individual cases where it may not be the case? Got self contradiction?
"...you were not such a dumbass simple logic tells you that 3-5 miles of glacial ice built up on the continents that melted and continues to melt would cause the oceans to rise ( about 300' since the low point during the last ice age )"
What logic is that? The type found in Disney Land? Yo Ding Dong. Which part of "show me the mechanism" are you failing to grasp? Do you think ice just decides to up an melt? Listen ***** Head. Unless you come up with a MECHANISM and have EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to back up you are just another suck dick for the fossil fuel industry? Got it ***** Tart?
but since you already drank the cool aid all your logic is now gone so go back to your corner and keep repeating your global warming mantra like a good disciple" - neozeed, on 06/30/2009, -0/+2Here here,... The sooner they clear out the lower keys of the trailer parks the better. Marathon is such a waste of land.
- Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+2"how exactly does anyone propose to "protect" the keys, or any island, or any coast for that matter from the supposed threat of sea level rises."
Reduce anthropogenic green house gases. Are you really that clueless or being disingenuous?
I" fail to see an engineering solution that would be practical. I don't think it's practical to build levees around an island."
Ok, I see your clueless. News Flash: Unless you live in small and wealthy like the Netherlands a lot of places are simply going to be uninhabitable. Those people are going to go places that I am willing to bet you do not want them.
"Hooray for taxation!"
How is geophysics suspended by U.S tax policy? - Trent1492, on 06/30/2009, -1/+2"Mmmm...this one?"
No that is not reality but propaganda. Here is reality:
National Sea Ice Data Center:
http://nsidc.org/images/arcticseaicenews/20090603_ ...
Who to believe the professional scientist or the professional ideologues? It really should not be a tough choice. - tyne101101, on 06/30/2009, -1/+2If there is hope for the Florida Keys. I'd doubt it.
- footbag01, on 06/30/2009, -0/+12.36" is significant, wow. And I'm surprised that Junkscience.com actually uses data that shows an increase in temperature. The amount of data that the non-believers have to fall back on is dwindling.
- OriginalLucid1, on 07/07/2009, -0/+1I could get Jesus H. Christ to Himself to tell you, but you appear to be the kind who will not be convinced. Exactly like the people who were telling me twenty years ago that the ice caps would be gone in twenty years! They absolutely knew they were correct and nothing would convince them otherwise. And although the ice caps are still there, those same people remain unconvinced.
- mah2cent, on 06/30/2009, -1/+2What sea-level rise? Take a look at some actual data:
http://sealevel.colorado.edu/ This data uses satellites to measure differences in sea levels to an accuracy of 3-4 mm. Since 1992 to present, the sea level has increased by about 60mm. That is about 2.36 inches.
This site offers interactive maps of practically any place on earth and you can find the variations sea levels over time. This is real science with real data, not some hype by enviromentalists.
And this site shows global monthy mean temperature anamolies:
http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/UAHMSUglobe.h ...
And this site show global daily sea ice area with trends:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/glo ... - OriginalLucid1, on 06/30/2009, -0/+1Professional scientists funded by whom? They can produce all the charts and hockey stick graphs they want, that doesn't make them right. Open your eyes to the world around you. The warming trend is over and has been awhile.
- inactive, on 06/30/2009, -2/+3What's the big deal? It's not going to happen overnight. If the sea level rises enough to submerge the Keys, the people will have moved away by then. Everyone can go back to typing in all caps now.
- paker, on 06/30/2009, -0/+1Well considering we have a COLD FRONT in north Florida, and it's almost July, I'm not going to worry about "global warming" very much.
- bjornski, on 06/30/2009, -0/+1Did you forget that water expands as it warms up?
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