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95 Comments
- deepdish, on 11/20/2008, -2/+43I am going to use all caps because this drives me crazy, so here I go:
ETHANOL IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!
I threw in lots of exclamation points too.
You get lower mpg with ethanol, sure it might cost less per gallon, but you are paying MORE per mile.
Lobbyist are pushing ethanol on us. It is not the answer. God how this frustrates me to no end. - cle2105, on 11/20/2008, -5/+33No ethanol. It will increase the price of food to a point that it more than offsets the decrease in the price of gasoline. There are much better ways to create environmentally friendly vehicles
- MeatMountain, on 11/20/2008, -4/+23Its obvious Detroit just wants free money to continue on their failed business model of building ugly, unreliable, fuel inefficient vehicles. Nobody bailed me out when the place I worked for went under last year. Hard luck.
- doiveo, on 11/19/2008, -4/+17The market, not gov. should decide.
- brstilson, on 11/20/2008, -0/+13Cellulosic ethanol is a much better solution. It uses the stalks and other inedible parts of the plant for fuel, so it's win-win.
- brstilson, on 11/20/2008, -1/+12I work for a Turkey supplier that employs over 400 workers in my area. The rise in corn prices has severely hurt our business. If ethanol from corn was a worthwhile endeavor, that would be one thing, but the energy used to produce ethanol compared with the energy actually produced is inverted, and there is a net energy loss when making it. Not only that, what the corn lobby won't tell you is that since there is less energy per given volume in ethanol when compared to gasoline, you will actually burn more of it volume-wise than gas, so it really isn't saving you any money anyway.
In Brazil, ethanol is produced from sugar cane stalks, and the stalks from corn are also being looked into as a source. Cellulosic ethanol is really the answer here. It doesn't make any sense to turn food into a fuel source when there is a food shortage. - MalarkeyPN, on 11/20/2008, -2/+13I'm from Iowa and even though I know this would be great for the farmers there I have to oppose ethanol because it does NOT reduce carbon emissions, because growing corn is terrible for land and, heh heh, oh yeah, it means we're burning food.
So I'm siding with the Turkey fellas, gents. - inactive, on 11/20/2008, -1/+9It is the same as the corn used in animal feed, and you do eat those animals...drink their milk...etc... Also, if all of these farmers are growing non-food products...who's growing the food? So, back at ya...pull your head out.
- CharlesSaint, on 11/20/2008, -0/+8Sandbox Iowan here, reporting in.
***** ethanol, and ***** this bailout in general. The company I work for has applied for ~2 billion in the bailout money as well, so ***** them too (google it and I'm sure you can figure out who I'm talking about). I'm not happy about the company I work for being down, but that's the way the ball bounces in capitalism. My stock in the company has lost a good 40% of its value in the last two weeks, and I'm not a rich person by any means, but I work hard and am proud of where I am and what I do. I held onto my stock in the company when it declined because I believe in the company I work for, but after reading about them applying for a cut of this bailout money, it makes me think twice. Before, we we may have been down, but at least we were fighting it out on our own, and not asking for an unearned check from uncle Sam.
If profits were at record highs right now, would we be applying to GIVE two billion away to the taxpayer? Of course not. So why are we asking for money FROM the taxpayer in a publicly traded company, and giving them NO EQUITY in return? It pisses me off. - crackedlogic, on 11/20/2008, -4/+11don't ***** with the NTF.
- bjornski, on 11/20/2008, -0/+7Yet another reason to legalize hemp production.
- awtripp, on 11/20/2008, -4/+10***** ethanol. NO FOOD FOR FUEL!
- comedianX, on 11/20/2008, -1/+7This the common misconception with ethanol: that is somehow an exclusive byproduct of corn. You can make ethanol from damn near anything organic. This is especially true for algae which can grow anywhere, doesn't need fresh water, and gives a higher yield of ethanol per acre.
- inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+6This is a serious problem our country if not the world is facing. Real human beings are dying. Real human beings are suffering. The answer is not in choosing which lobbyists should get their way. The answer lies in free people making choices in a free market. The government shouldn't be subsidizing anything. Free markets and competition will turn up a better solution faster than a fixed game.
I'm sick of hearing about industries who are "too big to fail". There is no such thing. - TMTurtle, on 11/20/2008, -4/+9The market doesn't have a conscience.
Granted, neither does the current administration. - Target91, on 11/20/2008, -0/+5Well the market sure is taking it's time.
- Qwert302, on 11/20/2008, -2/+6Ethanol=a Joke.
- cle2105, on 11/20/2008, -0/+4Can't argue with that, well played
- lebondarken, on 11/20/2008, -0/+4The government trusting self regulation is what has gotten us so far down the *****. And corn based fules will ruin the commoditiy market and make real people starve due to inflated food prices. Go Algae!
- dave122, on 11/20/2008, -0/+4Damn gas is 1.67? I filled up yesterday and it was 1.69 :D
- ulmedas, on 11/20/2008, -0/+4What? You don't think it's a good idea to use large swaths of out farm land to run our cars instead of providing food?
- bjornski, on 11/20/2008, -0/+4Plus, most of the farmers that would benefit from a program such as this are groups like ADM, not your local farmers.
It's just more money for the mega-corps. - DangerCollie, on 11/20/2008, -4/+7Darn National Turkey Federation...if it wasn't for them we'd have energy independence!
Funny Detroit opposes flex fuel vehicles because they sell a lot of them in Brazil. Detroit opposed mileage standards, limits on emissions, flex fuel vehicles, they took California to court over the zero emissions car...see a trend here? Detroit is opposing everything that's good for the country.
So no big surprise they're aligned with a bunch of turkeys. - inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3yay failed business practices!
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3@warriorscot
ever heard of this country called Brazil? I guess not if you think nobody is energy independent - Number23, on 11/20/2008, -1/+4Sure, but land used to grow corn for ethanol is land NOT used for growing corn to eat.
- Aleut, on 11/20/2008, -1/+4Hmm... Who are the Democrats more indebted to, big agribusiness or the labor unions? That's a tough call.
- bjornski, on 11/20/2008, -1/+4Not eaten by people. But it's pulled right out of the animal feed stock. Which means higher food costs.
And unless you do a lot of driving outside of what you pointed out here, your 14mpg sucks ass. Stop trying to raise everyone's food costs so you can drive a vehicle that gets ***** mileage. - bjornski, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3Please, tell me how a farmer using his 10,000 acres to grow subsidized ethanol corn is going to use that to grow food corn too.
Farmland isn't infinite. Farmers will use it to grow what pays them the most. If that's subsidized corn for ethanol, that's 10,000 acres of food corn that aren't being grown.
Before you comment about anything, please learn something (about) it first. - nonymous666, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3Of course it's not the same corn. But it's the same land.
Nobody has ever been concerned about the corn being 'diverted' to ethanol instead of food
The concern has always been about land being used to grown corn usable for ethanol instead of for corn we can eat (or feed to animals). - jonnyboy1544, on 11/20/2008, -1/+4Conscience has nothing to do with it. You have good intentions. I do. Everyone does. Legislators did when they called for mortgages for those who can't afford it, and look what happened. Bush did when he called for an ethanol mandate that ended up running up food prices.
Let the market sort it out. It's the only unbiased means out there. - insllvn, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3"[T]he food argument is ridiculous..."
How about the all-the-arable-land-in-the-United-States-can't-support-enough-corn-to-power-all-our-cars argument?
How about the ethanol-still-produces-CO2-emissions-and-is-ergo-a-step-to-the-side-not-a-step-forward argument?
Small things (eg cars) should run off batteries or better yet fuel cells, big things (ie power plants) should be a combination of wind, hydro, solar, geothermal, etc, until nuclear fusion is ready. That leaves plenty of oil for the only things that need it: jets. Ethanol is a mistake, ethanol from corn is a scam being perpetrated by the agricultural lobby. - dave122, on 11/20/2008, -1/+4Cellulosic ethanol is a much better solution down the road, but we don't have the technology to process it yet. While I agree that corn ethanol is not the best solution, I think you would also find that most ethanol proponents also agree. It is a great stepping stone into moving forward with biofuels - we have the technology and are improving the infrastructure and vehicles around corn ethanol which will only help push the development of better methods of attaining biofuels. The first solar panel wasn't horribly efficient either.
And please, the food argument is ridiculous, the government has been paying farmers to not farm for years and as we move in the other forms of ethanol production we can use the parts of the plant that are generally considered waste and leave the 'food' part for you. - fancypantscz, on 11/20/2008, -0/+3or the land used to grow not food corn, could grow food corn if it were not for crappy corn based ethanol
- nonymous666, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2> Farmers do not feed their animals 100% corn. It's a mix of grain, hay, corn, molasses and a lot of other ingredients.
For small farmers, that's true. But for the huge corporate farms, which is where the vast majority of your meat comes from, the cattle are fattened up by being fed primarily corn, with protein added via pigs blood to bulk up their muscle. You think a 10,000 acre industrial farm that has 100,000 head of cattle is really feeding them all nice meals of hay and molasses? - inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2It's not about MPG, it's about energy independence.
- inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2@l2digg
Actually, that's not my logic at all... I'll 1 through 10 it for you.. Maybe that will help:
1. Farmer X produced 1000 bushels of corn for human consumption in 2006
2. Farmer X sees that the going rate for non-consumable corn is going to be really high in 2007
3. Farmer X produces 1000 bushels of non-consumable corn in 2007
4. The supply of corn for human consumption goes down in 2007 because Farmer X and all of his buddies stopped growing it.
5. As a result of reduced supply, the price of corn for human consumption goes up.
6. Corn is really expensive so Joe Sixpack buys rice to feed his family instead of corn. The demand for rice goes up.
7. As a result of increased demand, the price of rice goes up
8. Food shortage
9. ???
10. Profit! - bjornski, on 11/20/2008, -1/+3Yeah, they're just burning up animal feed.
Do you eat meat? Well, it will cost EVEN MORE if we keep feeding the corn to our vehicles instead of our yummy, edible animals. - thejokker, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2Why do they need a conscience? Does the consumer have one, they are the ones deciding which product to buy. The consumer decides if they want to spend more on organic, or more on 'green' light bulbs, not the government.
- insllvn, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2Just curious, have you a) read Wealth of Nations or b) seen Mad Max?
- kinerry, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2what pipe are you smoking?
- jonnyboy1544, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2It tends to do that, but would you rather another government quick fix that makes everything worse?
- inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2change my ass
- inactive, on 11/20/2008, -4/+61. end embargo on cuba.
2. start producing ethanol from sugar cane
3. ???? - parasitewasp, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2Seems the more things change the more they stay the same.
Seems the gov should mandate at least 10 to 20% electric car production, but that won't happen now or in the near future. - MalarkeyPN, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2While the corn used for ethanol may not be fit for human consumption, the land used to produce that corn could produce food if it weren't used to produce fuel.
Also:
http://www.agriview.com/articles/2007/03/15/crop_n ...
"Dick Wolkowski, UW-Madison soil scientist, thinks a consequence of long-term continuous corn production could be the adoption of more aggressive tillage to manage large amounts of residue, potentially leading to decreased soil quality and more soil loss."
FYI, at the end of the article, another researcher disagrees with Wolkowski. - inactive, on 11/20/2008, -0/+23. Coal to Oil
- PeeEqualsNP, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2ADM and Cargill will make a lot of money from a government sponsored ethanol program, but so would local farmers. Who do you think buys the corn from the local farmers? Either other farmers with livestock, their own livestock need it, or they sell it to ADM, Cargill, etc. because very few local farmers also possess the ability to their own processing. ADM and Cargill do grow some of their own corn and soybeans, but they buy a large portion of it. Their main focus is in the processing of the materials and making stuff out of corn and soybeans... like ethanol. Since they purchase the corn from the local farmers, local farmers will see a benefit as well.
The problem would be that the corn for ethanol brings in more profit to both entities than corn processed for foods (which has a SUPER high demand). To make the most money, they wont process as much corn for food and that means higher food prices. Which sucks cause there is corn and soy bi-products EVERYWHERE. - FairDinkumMate, on 11/20/2008, -0/+2@brstilson - Well done for differentiating corn ethanol from sugar ethanol.
I must correct one point though. Ethanol in Brazil is made from the sugar in sugar cane, not the stalks. So it isn't 'cellulosic' ethanol being produced. It does produce 7 times more ethanol than corn though!
The 'bagasse' as it's known(left over stalks after crushing, leaves, etc) are used though. Each ethanol plant has it's own power generator & a lot of the power they use is produced by the burning of the 'bagasse' in these generators. -
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