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122 Comments
- inactive, on 06/20/2009, -7/+42I used to want to major in history. Then I sadly realized instead of being a competitive market in america, schools would rather save money and pay the football coach to coach AND teach history.
I mean, who cares, right? It's not like Americans need a REAL history teacher.
It's not like we're ignorant about the past or the rest of the world... - cubicledrone, on 06/20/2009, -8/+32If America can't make use of it's Bachelor's Degrees and Master's Degrees, do we have any reason to believe it can make use of it's true best and brightest? ***** no.
This is simply part of the overall decline of this nation. We have a culture that celebrates ignorance and illiteracy, a school system that is really a multi-billion dollar disincentive to achievement and an economy that is in full retreat because our "employers" are flat out not interested in anything except lower costs, even if it destroys their market and their company.
Better disconnect the cranial-rectal interface folks. America's last great achievements were decades ago. We've been living on ***** and credit cards ever since. We better start employing people again and we better do it quick or this country is going to be a second-rate swap meet.
For the "what's your source" crowd: Between 1953 and 1973 the median income in America doubled. Since 1973 it has dropped 16%.
Face it. We suck. - FearlessFreep, on 06/20/2009, -0/+22Diggers
- TempusEdax, on 06/20/2009, -2/+17Oh, of course! Thank you for showing me the light. Now I regret my vain and useless attempt to understand the world through a variety of social sciences, hoping that historical and anthropological study might allow me to make informed decisions as a citizen of the United States and the world, and as an eventual member of a small and increasingly under appreciated segment of society (that being academia...).
But clearly I was wrong. Everything of value with regard to human experience can be taught by unmotivated drones in a student's brief high school years, and higher academic yearning in fields other than science and engineering have nothing to offer a nation of people that is growing increasingly distant from its own past and displays an increase, rather than a decrease, in ethnocentric attitudes. - nicktomyskins, on 06/20/2009, -0/+14I'm a third year Mech Eng @ a technical university in the US and I know first hand of teachers with PhD's that I've had who've been laid off, meanwhile my university is hiring lecturers who aren't nearly as qualified but cost a ton less. The result will be a cheap product, but we all love cheap products here in the USA.
- BillE3, on 06/20/2009, -4/+18It is a brain drain. Our best and brightest in all fields will be courted by many foreign countries as our economy sours. Consider what we will be left with.
- CRCulver, on 06/20/2009, -2/+15Anthropology is a pretty wide field and includes such things as post-colonial studies and areal studies. This is the kind of field that, for example, can make a contribution to understanding why some poor people in desperate Muslim countries sometimes provide support to e.g. rich Saudis planning to attack the US, so you'd be surprised at how useful it really is. While much of the humanities is pretty lackluster in itself, it does support a wider range of studies with practical application.
- rnawky, on 06/20/2009, -4/+17I'll be getting a PhD in Computer Science in 5 years.
Hopefully our economy fixes itself by then. - FearlessFreep, on 06/20/2009, -3/+15"I have art history majors on line 2..."
So...you work Suicide Hotline or just the phones at the local unemployment office? - MarkusDee, on 06/20/2009, -0/+12Hmmmm, didn't someone say "the unexamined life is not worth living?"
- homercles337, on 06/20/2009, -3/+14In the sciences its the opposite problem, all the tenure track positions are going to folks from India and China. Just go to any Engineering School website and look at the faculty. I went to grad school in 1997 so i have heard all the stories and seen the changes first hand. It got so bad at Berkeley that i quit taking some courses in EECS because i could not understand the prof.
- CheeseburgerBro, on 06/20/2009, -2/+12I would just like to say that my favorite show is "Ow, My Balls!" and that the parent commenter talks all faggy and *****.
- URnotheonly1, on 06/20/2009, -0/+10world is not just about engineering.
- CRCulver, on 06/20/2009, -3/+12It's a pity the Cold War is over. During our stalemate with the Russkies, the Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force created an enormous amount of academic jobs by funding any research that was even vaguely connected to the Soviet Union. The world center of the historical study of the Turkic languages, for example, most of which are spoken inside the former USSR, was at Indiana University Bloomington where an impressive teaching and research staff had job security thanks to the military. But at the start of the 1990s, that all dried up, and the world centers of such studies are now places like University of Helsinki, Uppsala, and Mainz. American universities, even those with decent endowments, are now shedding left and right departments which don't seem sexy enough. I'm finishing up a graduate program in Finland, and having seen how good it is for academics here, I never want to go back to the US.
- cubicledrone, on 06/20/2009, -5/+14"The chance to make a meaningful contribution to society?"
I guess it takes an engineer to suggest the Constitution of the United States isn't a meaningful contribution to society. Fair enough, sir. You win. - cubicledrone, on 06/20/2009, -8/+17For all of you "ha ha liberal arts" people, here's another guy that probably wouldn't get hired today either:
He studied geography, mathematics and ancient languages in his high school years, and had a particular aptitude for Latin. At age 16, he began college preparatory classes. He studied Greek, philosophy, rhetoric, speech and debate, and managed to graduate in two years from the college that would eventually become Princeton University. He received what today would be considered a classic liberal arts education.
He then went on to author the American Constitution, served as the Secretary of State under Thomas Jefferson and was elected the fourth President of the United States. His name was James Madison.
So the next time you decide to mouth off about someone else's education, why not just quietly admit your ignorance and go read a book? Maybe you'll learn enough to understand why a liberal arts education is important. - HurricaneDC, on 06/20/2009, -2/+11Given that Digg is (well, was) geared towards more technically minded people, you won't find much support here.
That said, the humanities are just as important as the sciences. Yes, engineering will pay more than a B.A. in English, but money isn't everything. I wouldn't want to earn even a million dollars a day doing work that makes me want to blow my brains out. - neelshiv, on 06/20/2009, -0/+9No, you should keep doing what you're doing, and then work for yourself.
- ElAmo, on 06/20/2009, -1/+10did you seriously get a phd in philosophy?
- CalgaryJohn, on 06/20/2009, -8/+16Please, why don't you try and give me a convincing argument that a liberal arts education is important, and a better choice for someone than a more technical degree, say, a civil engineering degree, a science degree...a business degree (not really technical, but not liberal arts), or really anything that isn't a liberal arts degree?
Is it the higher salary? nope.
How about the increased job security in times of reccession? Yeah! wait...nope
The chance for a really cool cutting edge job in a quickly evolving field? nope.
The chance to make a meaningful contribution to society? questionable, but admittedly possible.
Seriously, please educate this lowly engineer who obviously is too 'ignorant' to understand the liberal arts field. - DangQuesadilla, on 06/21/2009, -1/+8The article was about THE HUMANITIES, sweetheart. With a PhD in computer science, you'll have a job in no time. I have a doctorate in music, and when I finished my program there were 8 jobs in my country (USA) that needed someone fitting my description. I ***** landed one of them. Making under 40K. And all my friends were jealous. While pondering the enormous work and intelligence it took to get that "golden" job, I realized the humanities are for pansies and changed careers.
After a year of studying Java, there are over 600 jobs within 25 miles that want someone like me. I will be out-earning my previous career in no time. The humanities suck ass. - AbominableHoman, on 06/20/2009, -0/+7It was a nice run..
- TrevorPace, on 06/20/2009, -1/+7I dunno PhD in technical fields like CS and Engineering tend to get jobs pretty easily.
- Ymeg, on 06/20/2009, -2/+8It's a shame that America has lost the title of the worlds brain drain.
- Rogor, on 06/21/2009, -0/+6I cant speak for other Asian countries but here in Hong Kong we have over a billion qualified local Chinese people ready to fill whatever position becomes available, there is absolutley no reason to import any white people from anywhere and the dwindling expat community here reflects that. I think you need a plan B.
- TempusEdax, on 06/21/2009, -1/+7Seriously, if I hear one more business or tech major cite money to me, I'm gonna slap a bitch. Do you think we got a liberal arts major for the MONEY? We're worried about the lack of WORK, not the lack of huge monies.
You don't become a liberal arts major because the job market demands it. You do it because you believe that a liberal arts education prepares you better for a deeply complex world. I know this is a foreign concept, but I studied history because it informs everything I do. I'll spare you the "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, etc. etc,." spiel, but try and understand that not all of us went to a liberal arts college to smoke pot and 'discover ourselves'
I don't understand what the ***** is so difficult about this. - lusenok2, on 06/20/2009, -0/+6That's because we have a surplus of humanities PhD but not enough professionals in physical science, computer science and engineering fields.
- kinerry, on 06/20/2009, -0/+5teach english in a foreign country
easy jobs to get as there are always shortages - Barackalypse, on 06/21/2009, -1/+6I'd hardly call anyone who studied humanities and social sciences the best and brightest. Wake me up when engineers and scientists start leaving.
- Stevanoski, on 06/20/2009, -1/+6I lucked out in differential equations and got an English speaking prof.
- cliffzdude, on 06/20/2009, -1/+6James Madison's studies serve as a typical pre-law curriculum today, hmmm, turns out James Madison also studied law sporadically - although he never gained admission to the bar.
- treas, on 06/20/2009, -0/+5sanskrit?
- Ymeg, on 06/20/2009, -0/+5-er
- dvntrsnsltd, on 06/21/2009, -0/+5Kudos to you, man.
- 23cranberries, on 06/20/2009, -1/+5Now you know what the Indian Software industry feels like :-P
- starbuck2907, on 06/20/2009, -1/+5I've taught at a university for five years with an M.A. I'm a bit disappointed in the WSJ's reporting. The lack of jobs for Phd's in liberal arts has been a problem for years. This isn't some sort of new phenomenon.
Here's what you need to know:
1. If you teach English, History, Art, Psychology, Sociology, etc, your Phd is almost worthless. You'll eventually be able to find a job in the U.S., perhaps after months of searching, but it won't necessarily be a tenure track position, and you will be expected to teach a lot of freshman and sophomore classes. The university will mainly want you as a teaching workhorse and isn't overly worried about your research. Also, the pay will suck. English profs in my area start off at about $7,000 a year more than high school teachers, and the profs usually have more than five years of education beyond a regular degree. Is 5-7 years of education really worth a $7,000-$10,000 starting pay raise over a high school teacher? Hell, a high school teacher can retire with partial retirement in 20 years, so they'd be nearly halfway to retirement by the time the phd finishes going to school.
2. There are plenty of Phd jobs in the U.S. if you're in the right field. Generally, business Phd's make a ton of cash and are in high demand. Finance and accouting Phd's typically start at $100,000+ a year because they're in high demand. Most other business Phd's start at $85,000-$95,000 a year because they're in high demand as well. If they don't teach, they can go work in the corporate world and pull down serious $$. Pharmacy profs make a ton of cash as well, cause they are in demand and can make a lot of money in the real world as well.
Math and science profs generally make more than humanities profs cause they're in higher demand, but not greatly so. It's possible to find math and science jobs in the U.S., although jobs are prestigious schools, or a job where you want is always a bit more tricky. If you're willing to move, perhaps so someplace you don't want to move, you can usually get a job in these fields.
There's a lot more that could be said, but basically, it comes down to supply and demand, like any other industry. Lots of liberal arts and social sciences Phds = low pay and hard to find a job. Few business Phd's = higher pay. The corporate sector also competes for those guys, so there's even greater competition for them.
Basically, after five years of teaching English with an MA, I'm heading back for an MBA and then a Phd in a business field.
That way, I can find a job in the U.S. with ease AND support my family. I love English, but I enjoy some aspects of business as well, and with double the salary, I think the business Phd will more than make up for the loss of teaching "Othello" every semester.
The article is misleading. There is a decent amount of Phd jobs, IF you're in the right field. Also, the situation in the humanities and social sciences has been like that for years. The movement overseas isn't anything special. It's been happening for a long while and is probably getting worse each year as more and more humanities and social science phd's graduate and have to wait on the old guard to retire in order to get a job. - asw66, on 06/20/2009, -0/+4I have a PhD in Philosophy, but haven't tried too hard to secure an academic position. Right now I'm working as a technical writer, which seems like a natural role for a philosopher. Technical writers have to understand (relatively inarticulate) experts in a variety of fields, and then articulate the essentials for a wider audience.
The pay can be quite good, but I do often feel like I should be doing more with my degree. - DangQuesadilla, on 06/22/2009, -0/+4WTF?? How in the hell do you reckon that??
- HurricaneDC, on 06/20/2009, -0/+4Also, this is coming from a guy who's interested in either engineering or veterinary medicine.
- starbuck2907, on 06/21/2009, -0/+4cubicledrone, -- Please be aware that I'm not speaking from a personal use standpoint. Personally, I love my field of study and treasure my education. But from a university administration standpoint, what i said was the truth. They view your degree as "almost worthless" because those profs are a dime a dozen. If they're going to cut instructors, the liberal arts faculty are the first to go because those positions are the easiest to re-hire. Financially, a Phd in many of those fields is also "almost worthless" because you see very little return for your investment - e.g. you see an extra seven years of school for a $7,000 pay raise. And that's IF you can get a job.
So, please understand my point. I wasn't trying to invalidate a liberal arts education, so much as I was trying to point out the economic truth. If you are a liberal arts person, I assumed you would understand the context of my statements. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my phrasing, but again, I thought my meaning was obvious.
Also, I meant to add this bit to my above post. --If they want to fix the job field, there's a very simple solution - make it much harder to get into a liberal arts or social sciences MA program. Universities let in far, far too many MA candidates because they like the free labor (GA's and TA's). Those MA's go on to get Phd's. However, the market's flooded. Of course, you'll never see the labor market get any better because universities will never give up the free labor. - treas, on 06/20/2009, -2/+5Or the spots they are qualified for are already taken and won't be left any time soon. With most jobs filled and no new jobs opening for someone with intelligence of that magnitude, do you think they're going to get a job at starbucks or go and make bank in the middle east/asia?
- inactive, on 06/20/2009, -1/+4What do PhDs in English do for a living? Invent new words? Seriously, wtf...
- Stevanoski, on 06/20/2009, -0/+3A masters degree in social services is a guaranteed job right now in the nursing home industry.
- hpodity, on 06/21/2009, -0/+3Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that China has more Grad students right now than they have lead-based children's toys, which is why I was surprised by the title of this article...
- mardraum, on 06/20/2009, -0/+3I did not. but it was never a problem, his English was great except for his occasional trip-ups. "variation of parameter is a pain of the ass!"
- TheMoniker, on 06/21/2009, -0/+3I ended up with two great, English speaking profs for differential equations: one for intro and one for partials. However, the class really struggled to figure out what the professor for advanced differential equations was saying: he spoke very quietly, with a thick Farsi accent.
- AmusedToDeath, on 06/20/2009, -0/+3Write or teach. Those are pretty much your options.
- mardraum, on 06/20/2009, -0/+3somewhat. pure math has carved out a niche, in my experience you don't see too many foreign professors specializing in things like topology, number theory, and algebra.
- Boner11, on 06/21/2009, -1/+3Ohhh no. The USA will entirely collapse if all of our "womens studies", "philosophy", and "african american studies" PHDs leave the country. What ever will we do? Want a job? Get a degree in something math or physics related, sure fire every time. But you will have to do much more than sit around campus smoking grass and blaming America for all problems past, present, and future.
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