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- sinfree, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40I am probably most excited about this in regards to its use in laptops and digital cameras. However, I also think that more advanced battery technology could do wonders for hybrid and electric cars.
- Roryking, on 10/12/2007, -5/+38Release date in Japan: September 16th, 2006
Release date in U.S.: March 1st, 2022 (*UNOFFICIAL*) - gregmo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27by "lasts forever" he means it won't die over many charges like Lithium-ion batterys
- Roryking, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Science!
- cheztir, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23@kingfoot
by forever they mean there is no degrading of the batteries storage capacity. similar to how li-ion and nimh batteries hold less and less over time. - qwickone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15It's nice to see people work on making it last longer/charge faster instead of just making it smaller. I think people will be willing to give up a little on the size for faster charging and longer life.
- sliptech, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16if you read the article you'd realize that the charge doesn't last forever, it's the battery itself; as in, it won't stop holding a charge after 200 discharges like your ipod.
- eplawless, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20I'm surprised that the oil and automotive industries haven't been climbing all over one another to keep these things suppressed. These could potentially make fully electric cars viable within 10 years.
- venir, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15@ eplawless
"I'm surprised that the oil and automotive industries haven't been climbing all over one another to keep these things suppressed."
The article states that Ford is acutally helping to fund the reseach through the Ford-MIT Consortium. - codyfrisch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Car bodies are not made of aluminum because the alloys required to make a vehicle strong enough to survive an impact would make the car significantly more expensive.
Washing machines barely survive past warranty because you cram them full of clothes then push even more in. Then when you're done you close the lid so it stays wet and rusts out.
Why is it more expensive to repair an electrical product? Volume, stuff is made in a factory. With repairs you have to warehouse single parts that don't turn over quickly, you have to have a trained service person to do the work (on average you do, general population is not as bright as we would like to see unfortunately). So by the time you ship the part and have someone perform the labor its become expensive.
Ironically, my electronics failure rate is virtually zero. I haven't had any consumer electronics fail. I had the battery on my MacBook Pro fail, and they swapped that out in the store. I had a Sony DVD+RW drive in my PowerMac that wouldn't recognize media properly, they shipped me a new one ($300 for a $40 item if I didn't send it back... dumb I know) and I installed it myself. But those don't require soldering or crimping wires. Simple parts replacement.
Last washing machine that failed on my family was several years ago, it was the cheapest we could find at the time and it lasted a good 5 years past the end of the warranty period. In fact it didn't actually die, it was wearing out so we got new ones.
I think more than anything its how you treat your equipment and how clean you keep your place. - Desolite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9i wonder what would happen if i touched my tongue with one...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7when they say last forever they don't mean the charge lasts forever but that the battery itself won't lose it's ability to hold a charge.
If you use any kind of rechargeable battery currently you will have noticed that over time the ability for the battery to hold a charge diminishes until it can't do anything. A capacitor on the other hand isn't subject to this annoyance. Therefore you will be able to continue to recharge it without it losing its ability to hold said charge.
Somehow I think if people read the article they might have picked up on that. - becominglumberg, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16Don't forget my iPod...
- SuperSloth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8It's still here, isn't it?
- Lazybones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@RevEng
It is not the voltage that kills it is the AMPs, so part of your description was right.
"it's the volts that jolts, but the mils that kills" basic physics. - khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6No, you just build the capactor to a specified size, only in this case it'l be much smaller than with conventiona capacitors because of the greatly-increased surface area. You can build a capacitor to charge/discharge at a certain rate, what do you think those capacitors in massive car sound systems are for?
- Desolite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5and hybrid batteries are expensive now, yes... but it sounds kinda expensive to make billions of nanotubes too. i wonder how much these will cost?
- weprin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Capacitors not only recharge much faster than batteries, they also discharge much faster. In fact, their discharge rate is not limited by any factor other than the internal resistance of the materials used to construct the capacitor. For this reason, capacitors can be exceptionally dangerous, because they can release a LOT of energy nearly instantaneously. They also hold their charge for many years and do not degrade like chemical-based energy storage.
- thomas7683, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If furry capacitors really do recharge in seconds, we could place charge strips along roads. One could then refuel the car without stopping.
It would be sooo nice to see a consumer product which uses nanotubes. They seem to get written about all the time, but no cigar.
Anyone know of any existing nanotube products? - rockintom99, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think *someone* needs to upgrade their sarcasm detectors!
- RevEng, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes, big capacitors are mainly dangerous not because they can deliver a lot of current quickly, nor especially because they contain a lot of energy, but because the high-power ones are typically very high voltage.
A 12V car battery won't have any noticable effect on it if you touch the terminals, but 120V wall socket will, even though the car battery can deliver more than 10 times as much current as the wall socket will give you (considering the circuit breaker). This is because of the resistance of human skin.
Now, if you take a wrench and touch it to both terminals of that battery, you probably won't get the chance to do it again.
If they can offer capacitors at the same voltage as a car battery, but with enough capacitance to hold the same amount of energy, it would act very similar to the car battery. The major difference would be that the capacitor would likely have a lower internal resistance, meaning that it would respond quicker and could supply a higher maximum current. This would only be a problem if it was short circuited, since it would deliver much more current and heat up much faster. A short-circuited battery isn't nearly as spectacular looking as a short-circuited capacitor. - RevEng, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4A battery is not a constant voltage source either. In fact, alkalines have a typical exponential voltage/charge curve, similar to a capacitor. The difference is that a battery's voltage drops off because the used up chemical slows down the reaction. That's why they get some extra charge if you leave them for a while (the chemicals have time to react).
One of the advantages of NiCad and NiMH is that their charge curve has a much sharper drop off, such that it stays at nearly full voltage until the charge becomes very low. This is advantageous for digital electronics, which is one more reason why we prefer them to alkaline batteries. But for capacitors, this exponential discharge curve is inherent to capacitance; no change in plates or electrolytes will change it.
Of course, it's possible to make very cheap and efficient boost converters (switched capacitor DC/DC converters), such that you can get the voltage you need no matter how low the input voltage becomes. This would be one effective way of overcoming the charge curve of a capacitor. - RedRummy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7We've been here before anyway...
What will happen is this: the big battery manufacturers will buy the patent for this and bury it forever...
They can't have a battery that lasts forever!
Ask yourself this - why aren't all car bodies made of aluminium so they don't rust, why does your washing machine always brake down a week after the warranty period expires, why is it less expensive to buy an new electrical product than it is to repair a broken one?
Capitalism at its finest, my friends. - khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Why aren't car bodies made of aluminum? Simple - it makes the car far too heavy, and we have gas mileage regulations, this is why we have fiberglass and carbon-fiber. The frames are made of steel, for good reason, and so are the protective cages around the passenger. No need for aluminum when the car's safe enough. It's the drivers around you that you gotta wory about.
The reason it's more expensive to repair something electronic is the fact you're paying for the skilled labor of someone who's taking out components and resoldering in new ones to repair your broken hunk o junk. That kind of labor don't come cheap, pal. - daedalus01, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Just adding to your point Finalcut, a quote from the article:
"Rechargeable and disposable batteries use a chemical reaction to produce energy. 'That's an effective way to store a large amount of energy," he says, "but the problem is that after many charges and discharges ... the battery loses capacity to the point where the user has to discard it.'" - rockintom99, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3bugmenot.
- rodan32, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yeah, capacitors can be big big fun. Some of my friends rigged one up to an ordinary looking three ring binder, cleverly covered in foil. It would give a nice zap. BUT. . .it was a big cap from a TV we found. You can have different sizes and different voltages and so forth, I assume.
- khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3depending upon the voltage and discharge, anything from a tingle, to a bright flash of light before your eyes (white-over your vision, easily done with a 12v li-ion camera flash battery) perhaps some nerve disruption, maybe a heart attack. Some capacitors in broken TVs have been known to knock people flat on their asses.
- wush, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3his battery was flat
- Jozer99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I'm sick of people calling these batteries! They aren't, they are capacitors! Batteries store electricity chemically, and release it using a chemical reaction. Capacitors store electricity physically (using charged conducting plates). These new capacitors uses conductive nanotubes to boost the amount of electricity stored (as capacitor storage is related to the surface area of the charged plates, using nanowires increases the surface area, hence the charge stored). In the past, capacitors have been limited by their much lower energy density than batteries. These new super capacitors (not batteries) still don't hold as much energy as a lithium ion battery, but at least they are in the same ballpark. Capacitors also have some other nifty features, for instance, their internal resistance is almost zero. This means that
1. You can get away with charging them completely in about 10 seconds, wheras a normal battery would explode.
2. The are much more efficient to charge, regular batteries actually absorb only a fraction of the electricy you pump through them when you charge, wheras capacitors are very efficient (I can't give you absolute percentages, as I am sure I would get flamed by an EE).
3. You can also drain them much faster, similar to charging, you can also discharge them faster. This doesn't seem that useful, but there are devices where battery life isn't as important as the battery's maximum current flow. Lithium Ion batteries cannot produce that much current all at once, so you end up having to use gigantic batteries to make up for it, using an supercapacitor instead could allow you to shrink down the size of digital cameras and other similar high-current devices.
Also, since capacitors store electricity physically, there are no chemicals that slowly "lose effectiveness" and you have infinite battery life. - inkyblue2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Kermit: What if there isn't an infinitely long cookie?
Prof: Then they vill come out of dis machine forever - there are an infinite number of possible corkies you know.
Kermit: And what if the machine starts making an infinitely long cookie?
Prof: Thats obvious you frogk, I vill have to vait for it to come out.
Kermit: And how long will that take?
Prof: Forever. - Djerrid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't believe that this will increase the size in the long run. They use hearing aides as an example of its application.
- prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Quick! Trade mark "batacitor" and then you can sew Ford, Duracell and Energizer into nothingness"
I'd rather sew them into a warm fluffy blanket. - MrPhelps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There's always a problem with super fast charge technology ... The typical laptop battery capacity is 4000mAh. Charging it in "a few seconds" would need hundreds of amperes. A 1 minute charge would need 240 amps !
So maybe a 10 minutes charge would be feasible, but certainly not "a few seconds". - Teratogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah always seems to be 5 or 10 years away. =(
- Poco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Your right, I'm sure the value of Apple shares would plummet if it ever turned out that their iPods could last forever.
- Mambo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I also would imagine that it would be highly dangerous. From what I understand, capacitors can unload their charge extremely quickly.
- achoo5000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The other problem with capacitors is they are not a constant voltage source, like a battery, so they would need some extra electronics. It would be nice to get rid of that nasty battery "memory" problem though. Faster charges are also attractive. I wonder if the energy density of these things are only gonna match current batteries or if they will store even more energy in a given volume...
- olego, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2After looking at the photos for the story, why would anyone wear a suit in a laboratory? What's this, Gattaca?
- mikebyu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2These nanotubes are one of the hottest research areas in engineering right now! If this works out, now might be the time to buy stock in Ford since they seem to be funding this research.
- knightblade2oo4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2next time read the 8 comments above you, asshat
- Poco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I only dugg this comment because it was the first wasn't suggesting that car manufacturers want to bury battery technology like so many above. It makes far more sense for battery manufacturers to want to bury things like this than car manufacturers.
However, one thing you are forgetting is that most large companies don't look that far ahead. They are concerned with the next earnings report, not that what they are producing might make them go out of business in twenty years. Hell, if someone could make this, and it became really popular and they sold one to every person on the planet, I think they could safely go out of business and all the executives making those decisions would be much richer for it. - kingfoot, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9oh ok i get it now, thanks :D
and yes i agree that the supression of this info is something the automtive companies would be throwing themselves all over it. this could be the end of gas stations. or at least a change. and come to think of it...maybe thats good. no more explosions here and there from gas. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Hopefully they'll work on making it extremely safe before hitting the market."
Ye, else they get sued by the idiots that lick them. - kp3469, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@Desolite: nanotubes aren't as expensive as they used to be. one random website has them for ~$400 (U.S.) per gram (see below). i would bet that the capacitors could be made with much, much less than a gram of material. also, these nanotube folks keep promising that prices will continue to drop, so they should get cheaper over time.
http://www.cnanotech.com/pages/store/6-0_online_store.html - thepkor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@eplawless
if you read the whole article, you'll notice the research is funded by car companies.
::flame:: - RevEng, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That "wax" was electrolyte, which was undoubtedly very hot, not to mention it's not particularly good for you in the first place.
As above, capacitors are able to discharge almost instantly (given a low enough external resistance). Because of this, they will heat quickly, boiling the sticky electrolyte inside, and can easily explode instantly. I've done it before by accident once. Thank goodness it was just a little guy.
For anybody who values their life, I don't suggest shorting a big one. Certainly not with your tongue. - cesclaveria, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Everything its right, just a little detail they don't store electricity physically in the plates, they store energy in an electric field between the plates.
- gwolf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Finally a power source for my Death ray.
- heatasmallhouse, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5and within a few minutes of the technology being perfected it will be instantly covered up by General Motors until we forget about it and introduce a miniature combustion engine in our iPods
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