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Why Americans Became a Nation of Consumers Instead of Citizens
nytimes.com — IT’S Labor Day weekend, so let ’s talk about labor. Around 140 million people are employed in the United States. They are engaged in work like governing, manufacturing, health care providing, retailing and researching. This gigantic army of laborers, argues Robert B. Reich, has morphed into a nation of consumers and investors, rather than Citizens.
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- footodors, on 10/10/2007, -10/+3someone translate
"voice"- fauxXenophanes, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1I like to work, and then just keep the money !!
- DerGeist, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Corporations think customers are clueless, penny-pinching morons who wants everything for nothing.
Customers think corporations are sociopathic profit-generators who would kill your family to make a buck.
The sad part is both points are true for each.- hiphoc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8I like how we have become human resources and not human beings. I heard some economist the other day compare a US worker to a ***** basket of apples. He said this on CNN I swear. He did this when talking about free trade and globalism and how there is no difference between the US worker losing his job overseas and apples going overseas. Oh, god help us.
- notque, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2And it's true to them. The thing you are upset about is the truth about what they think, not how they phrase it.
- prolog, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0It's just a metaphor, there's no need to get worked up over it.
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Please keep your emotions out of a rational debate and read the very short chapter on trade in any economics textbook. It all boils down to this: After an American company closes and the jobs are outsourced--do you think the building just sits there and rots for all eternity and the workers just sit around and do nothing the rest of their lives? No, obviously that building will eventually be torn down and or reused for something and the workers will eventually get new jobs. It is this shift from from an inefficient use of workers and buildings to an efficient use that keeps nations growing. Sure there are temporary pains for the workers--but if our goal is to keep that from happening why not just outlaw firing?
- Gambit89, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1We always have been though of as human resources beginning shortly after 1900.
- hiphoc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8I like how we have become human resources and not human beings. I heard some economist the other day compare a US worker to a ***** basket of apples. He said this on CNN I swear. He did this when talking about free trade and globalism and how there is no difference between the US worker losing his job overseas and apples going overseas. Oh, god help us.
- maiku00, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6In America, money and productivity is more important than society and well-being
- notque, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4In America, corporations are more important than human beings.
- dragoonex, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0In America, corporations are legal human beings. Check out http://www.thecorporation.com/
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1What I'm interested in knowing is who gets to decide what should and should not be important?
- danarama, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1the corporations decide
- iticu, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1In America, money is more important than anything. Full stop.
- notque, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4In America, corporations are more important than human beings.
- danarama, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2people grow up to BUY. We have no idea how to get food or entertain ourselves with out spending money, usually on commercially produced commidities and products. Most of us anyway.
- coffee200am, on 10/10/2007, -12/+4In other words..."It's bad to buy stuff and not feel guilty"
- JohnFive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8Its bad to be thought was as a consumer rather than a human beign / citizen. What would it be like if you are thought of as a citizen which consumes, rather than being just a consumer.
- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -4/+1semantics.. either way, you're a faceless number.
- JohnFive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8Its bad to be thought was as a consumer rather than a human beign / citizen. What would it be like if you are thought of as a citizen which consumes, rather than being just a consumer.
- whatthefu, on 10/10/2007, -12/+4Did you seriously go out of your way to capitalize the C in citizens when putting together the description?
- MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6I wouldn't consider the shift key "out of his way". And for the record, this headline follows standard capitalization protocols for proper news headlines.
- Bricks, on 10/10/2007, -6/+37Such is capitalism, when pursued aggressively by a giant quantity of people.
An easy way to help make a difference is to consider each dollar a vote, as much as you can. A family scraping to pay a grocery store bill doesn't have the financial resources to deeply worry about what corporation or social practices they're supporting with their purchase. At that level, we rely on the government to have laws in place so that purchases don't perpetuate MASSIVE harm (like a company using sweatshop labor to obtain low prices)
But thinking about what you really need in your life to sustain yourself and be happy - thinking about what your personal values are and how your purchases can reflect them.. and doing your best to stay true to them within your own financial resources.. that's how a capitalist society can remain a nation of citizens- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3Unfortunately, we're a jealous nation. If it's not rappers and TV rubbing our faces in what we don't have, we're worried about having more than the next guy.
Part of the problem is an unjustified feeling of entitlement. But that's getting in to a "chicken or the egg" arguement.
I still don't think raising the minimum wage is the answer. It's not much more than a weak attempt to reduce the pay gap. It ultimately hurts everyone, including those who earn minimum wage, because of a little thing called inflation.
This article started off interesting, but ended up focusing only on the income gap. I had hoped it would focus more on situations such as the "Dolphin-free Tuna" that people wanted but ultimately didn't care about.- mithrasinvictus, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10Not increasing minimum wage because (imaginary) inflation would make those people even poorer sounds like Raeganomics.
- MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7If jealousy of rappers is causing your biggest financial troubles, I'd argue that you don't really have financial troubles, you just have a lack of willpower.
There are a lot of people in this country that have REAL financial hardship, and most of them work hard to overcome it. Not all of them can. That's who the minimum wage increase is for.- notque, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Exactly, the minimum wage increase allows families to buy food for their children. You're not going to get spinning rims making the minimum wage.
- wholly2b, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0If you're interested in examples like that, read The Wal-Mart Effect by Charles Fishman. It's got tons and it's really depressing.
- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0If you don't understand the law of supply and demand, you're too stupid to understand inflation. Inflation is not imaginary. It works like this: when more people have more money in their hands to spend, regardless of what they spend it on, then retailers can charge more money for the same products.
People who don't understand these basic concepts are usually the idiots who think that printing more money will fix all the problems.
Even Dave Chappelle had a bit about reparations that had a pretty good example of inflation... if every black American received reparations of $1mil, the cost of an Escalade would be $20mil.
- KingGorilla, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0salad shooter
- mcduckov, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Buy fewer things. As a conscious being it is possible, though difficult, to figure out what it is that we need to buy. Too many people substitute "things" for human interaction, or literature or exercise or etc etc etc. When you pare it down we really need to buy very little.
- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3Unfortunately, we're a jealous nation. If it's not rappers and TV rubbing our faces in what we don't have, we're worried about having more than the next guy.
- felman87, on 10/10/2007, -3/+38Why do I feel like corporations have more say in our government than we do?
- taquitohater, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14Start bribing officials more, honestly, how much have you paid YOUR senator lately. If you want your elected representation to make a difference you better be willing to pay.
- simg, on 10/10/2007, -1/+18Um, because they do ?
- notque, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2They have less say in our government if we are willing to act like they do. It's a literal issue.
They act constantly with government because they realize it's in their best interests. They would prefer WE, meaning the population, stay out of it because that's against their best interests.
What's in our best interest is to act, and force change based on what we want.
What happens is what you, and what I, and what all of us actually does on a day to day basis. And that's the issue.- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2As long as the government has the power to seize property and regulate, the right politicians will be bought and property will be transferred to the right corporations, and regulations will be constructed to give them the upper hand.
- yobbo, on 10/10/2007, -9/+6I refuse to be called a CONSUMER!!
- peranadigital, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Did you buy anything today?
- WiseWeasel, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You breathe, don't you? Damn air consumer!
It's normal for those dealing in the supply side of a good to be concerned with "consumers", as they are your demand. - BESTenemy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Will just call you a "Whore" then.
- donkeySays, on 10/10/2007, -3/+4No Fight Club comments?
- sdcarter, on 10/10/2007, -1/+30Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy ***** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
- Kurisuku, on 10/10/2007, -2/+12Our war is really just Bush's war, or really, agenda.
The thing is, as true Fight Club was in the 90's, a lot has changed from then. The only people who now think they're going to be rich, or famous are those who actually chase the dream -- Meanwhile others laugh in scorn at those, while working their "reasonable" jobs in order to buy the newest iPod revision for what reason we would never know.
Buying a pair of 200 dollar jeans raises your chances of getting laid nowadays, and having the trendiest, expensive gadgets does the same. Our pathetic consumerism has turned into a void of status symbols, for those who own must be wealthy, and only those of wealth our worth our time and attention -- Of course! Why would someone without the money to watch HDTV be spiritually fulfilling, they will not help us obtain the latest blackberry or coach purse, will they?
That part rings true indefinitely, of course. Our war is most definitely a spiritual war, because those who are still spiritual are surviving a horror-filled world of zombies. Hand me a shotgun; Shoot for the head.
- Kurisuku, on 10/10/2007, -2/+12Our war is really just Bush's war, or really, agenda.
- BIGmog, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8"The things you own end up owning you."
- meatmcguffin, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Anyone else find it totally ironic that they made a fight club video game?
- meatmcguffin, on 10/10/2007, -0/+17Seeing as Digg gave me a double post, have a wikipedia entry on ants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ants- kufu91, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3***** yeah, ants!
- xGeneric, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"No Fight Club comments?"
First rule about Fight Club: There is no Fight Club
Second ru....
- sdcarter, on 10/10/2007, -1/+30Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy ***** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
- Treshnell, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6I like how we celebrate labor day in a labor free way. Speaks of the Great American Dream.
- Unrefined, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Speak for yourself, I have to work today. But I will get paid 0.5 times more than usual since it's a federal holiday.
- BESTenemy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Do you work in production or services? Do you physically produce anything or simply make a buck off someone else's buck? That is what capitalist society becomes eventually - a service bureau. But someone still has to be producing physical goods. Today it's Saudi Arabia and China. We're just catering to them. If they quit producing, we'd be out of a job.
- Unrefined, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1They'd be out of jobs too. In my mind it's a Yin-Yang thing. Know what I'm getting at?
- BESTenemy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Do you work in production or services? Do you physically produce anything or simply make a buck off someone else's buck? That is what capitalist society becomes eventually - a service bureau. But someone still has to be producing physical goods. Today it's Saudi Arabia and China. We're just catering to them. If they quit producing, we'd be out of a job.
- Unrefined, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Speak for yourself, I have to work today. But I will get paid 0.5 times more than usual since it's a federal holiday.
- dansmeek, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12our nation is scared. the war on terror. the war on drugs. wiretapping. methheads. dateline. catching a predator. the number of inmates in our jail cells have gone up, while crime has gone down. we are very close to bordering on the 1984 Wells predicted. This is why we consume. This is why we fear the government. This is why we dread the word citizen.
I don't know for a fact, but I could infer that an Italian would take pride in claiming his home, or that he was a citizen of Italy. Ditto with Jerusalem.
Not so -- at all -- with the US of A.- jester26, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Maybe a little too much pride for the citizen of jerusalem... and which of the two kinds of "citizens" would you be refering to?
And, isn't that how prisons are supposed to work... inmates up, crime rates down?- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6No as crime rates drop you'd think, in theory, that the prison population would drop with it. Natural you know, less crime means less criminals.
The point is there is an increased response to a decreased problem.- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6criminals = free labour for the prison industry.
- MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4summer camp = free labor for the braided lanyard industry
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6criminals = free labour for the prison industry.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6No as crime rates drop you'd think, in theory, that the prison population would drop with it. Natural you know, less crime means less criminals.
- sdcarter, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9I agree with some; but disagree with your main point. I am proud to be a citizen of the United States of America. I was born in a nation where I can, if I choose, walk up to the president of our nation and tell him to go ***** himself... and I would, if I had the opportunity. As much of a bad rap as we're getting these days, we've done a lot of good... largely in places that other nations have screwed things up. Sure, we're not perfect. No nation is; but we have opportunities that others die trying to attain and sadly most of us take those opportunities for granted. I mean where else can someone come off a boat and, with enough hard work/a little luck/and a good idea, make something of himself by himself. The problem really is that we've become a nation of consumers. We consume resources and outsource the labor... as ***** as that sounds, that we hardly do anything for ourselves anymore, we've probably been one of the best economic influences on this rock. WE CREATE JOBS! Beyond that, WE HELP PEOPLE! Other nations see how "happy" we are and want to mimic it. They see our flashy cars, supermodels, and think that's what "America" is and it's this way because we have capitalism and democracy and they strive for the same. Sadly, they only see the top 1% of the top 1% of us and get the wrong idea. Most of us are just like most of them. The standard of living might be different; but we're just trying to get by and be good people, just like everyone else.
As for your paranoia, get used to it, friend. Wars on "terror" and "drugs"... please... it's a war on peace-of-mind. We're a nation of cattle... we go where we're lead, consume, and move on to greener pastures. The government has been in bed with big-business for decades, if not longer, and use a lot of this stuff to control our grazing.- RanIntoTheDevil, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2You can walk up to the president! Damn, I wish I had your Secret Service connections!
- buu700, on 08/26/2008, -0/+1lmao good point
- WiseWeasel, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I will agree, that for all its faults, ours is still one of the best countries to live peacefully and support yourself, start a business, move up in the world. In many countries in Western Europe, it's very difficult for people to move up to higher social classes, with huge barriers for entry. If you don't have a lot of money you can't get a business loan. Labor prices are astronomical, and regulations prohibitive. Taxes are a huge burden on entrepreneurs. In many countries in Asia or elsewhere, the infrastructure can be burdensome or lacking, and again, access to capital is unavailable. In the US, it's still very possible for anyone with enough determination and sense to succeed, regardless of their social background. This alone is incredibly valuable. Until other countries empower individuals and entrepreneurship to the same degree, it'll remain an exceptional country.
- RanIntoTheDevil, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2You can walk up to the president! Damn, I wish I had your Secret Service connections!
- jester26, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Maybe a little too much pride for the citizen of jerusalem... and which of the two kinds of "citizens" would you be refering to?
- crosswick, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10I've said it before (to my friends, ad nauseam) and I'll probably say it many times again, but the documentary "Century of the Self" by Adam Curtis is one of the best pieces on how consumerism got started in America. Really, check it out.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2637635365191428174
What would social engineering look like if it wasn't based on a dark and fearful notion of the subconscious? :-)- crosswick, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2By the way, Robert Reich is actually featured in the fourth episode of this documentary.
- LordSlashstab55, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Thanks for the link!
- crosswick, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2By the way, Robert Reich is actually featured in the fourth episode of this documentary.
- roland, on 10/10/2007, -5/+1This made me think long and hard about buying his book.
Oh wait, it didn't. Nothing new here move along.- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Ah yes, the irony.. he's selling a book about being a consumer
now, if he gave away a book, would it be about being a freeloader?- MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Simply buying something does not necessarily make you a consumer - at least not in the sense that Reich is talking about. Consuming for the sake of consuming is the crux of the problem. No one is suggesting you never buy anything ever again, that would be stupid.
- thewindfish, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0He's talking about buying things you don't really want.
- Jonjonr6, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Ah yes, the irony.. he's selling a book about being a consumer
- blastcube, on 10/10/2007, -8/+19I laugh when Americans refer to their system of government as a "Democracy". Listen up Americans, you live in a REPUBLIC, which is NOT a democracy. Your government is closer to a DICTATORSHIP than any democracy I know. I live in Australia, which is the most 'freest' country in the world. We can say what we want and not have the government come tap our phone and spy on us.
Stop spending all your money and start making your government work for you as we do in Australia.- sdcarter, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8how's that whole security upgrade for APEC going? plenty of control over your government when people are annoyed with everything and the official statement from your government is "deal with it." Granted, it's not as bad as what we have going on these days... but just wait and see how quickly they'll retract their presence. Governments are like girlfriends... give them an inch and they take a mile... then they don't willingly give you anything back when they say they will.
Oh and we know it's a republic. The concept of electing officials to represent you is democratic so... we have a democracy. The only real "democracy" would be one where everyone votes on every single issue/election... which we don't... because we determined that a republic is the best form of a practical democracy.- drlog, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Yeah, im an aussie and I agree with you both! Australia is in a reasonably well balanced position now but I feel us slipping toward the american style over-capitalism. Dont get me wrong, I am ALL for capitalism but you need some socialism in there as well.
BTW, I lived in CA for 6 months so I have an idea what its like there. When I was sick I was told it was to expensive to see a doctor - WTF!? (This was many years before sicko)- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1Saying you're for SOME socialism is like saying you're for SOME fascism. The reason you couldn't afford health care in CA is because the government won't let you practice medicine until you join a special private club--this way the club can generally fix their prices and pass the huge costs along to insurance companies (who then cut costs by doing thins like fixing a doctor etc.)
It seems irrational to me to say that we need the government to tax people to pay the expensive health care bills that are spawned by the governments forcing everybody to use the same club.
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1Saying you're for SOME socialism is like saying you're for SOME fascism. The reason you couldn't afford health care in CA is because the government won't let you practice medicine until you join a special private club--this way the club can generally fix their prices and pass the huge costs along to insurance companies (who then cut costs by doing thins like fixing a doctor etc.)
- drlog, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Yeah, im an aussie and I agree with you both! Australia is in a reasonably well balanced position now but I feel us slipping toward the american style over-capitalism. Dont get me wrong, I am ALL for capitalism but you need some socialism in there as well.
- nixfu, on 10/10/2007, -7/+6>We can say what we want and not have the government come tap our phone and spy on us
Um. We can too, you have been listening to the tin fool KOOKs on the far left too much. USA is still one of the freest countries to live in the world.- stolenisotope1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Yeah... if you are white, rich and have connections. AT&T has rooms set aside in many of their buildings that run the internet's backbone, recording all of the information that passes through, which then goes to the FBI and the CIA. Hell, jus tto get into your country, I have to get my fingerprints taken, with an occasional test for explosives. There is a reason that Americans are the least liked people in the world. We in Oz call you Seppos (short for septic tanks) because you were so full of *****.
- bluenash, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3>Hell, just to get into your country, I have to get my fingerprints taken, with an occasional test for explosives.
gee, i wonder why?
maybe if maniacal Islamic terrorist start taking an interest in your country and run down a couple buildings taking the lives of women children fathers mothers grandfathers and grandmothers you'll be able to empathize. until that time ***** off, mate - spyd3rweb, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1bluenash: liberty is worth a hell of a lot more than a few buildings and a 3000 lives.
- bluenash, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3>Hell, just to get into your country, I have to get my fingerprints taken, with an occasional test for explosives.
- stolenisotope1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Yeah... if you are white, rich and have connections. AT&T has rooms set aside in many of their buildings that run the internet's backbone, recording all of the information that passes through, which then goes to the FBI and the CIA. Hell, jus tto get into your country, I have to get my fingerprints taken, with an occasional test for explosives. There is a reason that Americans are the least liked people in the world. We in Oz call you Seppos (short for septic tanks) because you were so full of *****.
- stolenisotope1, on 10/10/2007, -7/+8+1 Australia FTW
We live such easier lives than Americans do and are free-er because we have checks and balances set inside our goverment to ensure that one person cannot control the whole country (like The Dubya). We are closer to democracy than you Americans are. The American government is like a pyramid, with George W.Bush up at the top... and the bastard's visiting us in a few days time!
You have let the corporations run your country and look how it is now; you have substandard health, your minimum wage is lower than the equivalent of a 16 year old person's wages at a craphole like McDonalds (and it increases by a few dollars until 21 at about $23Aud or $21USD), you have a media that makes everything bigger than it really is (Fox News anybody?), your homicide rate is through the roof (other nations with nearly the same level of guns have less homicides), you have too many guns you don't need (although quite debatable, canada and switzerland are comparable), your minority groups are neglected (although to an extent that happens here in Oz too) and you are all scared of the unknown terrorist who you all believe have a good chance of dieing in a terrorist attack.
You people make me hope China doesn't follow in your footsteps when they overtake your place on the pedestal of powerful nations. Good day Sir, and Good Night.- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11America used to have checks and balances. They've spent decades eroding them.
Then again my own nation isn't looking too hot right now. Brown seems content to force through serious constitutional change when 85% of the population want a referendum on the issue. Hope parliament shows some guts for once and doesn't just fall along party lines.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11America used to have checks and balances. They've spent decades eroding them.
- Petrov101, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1The way to make the Federal govt work for us is to stop sending money to D.C. The Federal gov't is *WAY* too big. It doesn't surprise me that everyone has got their hands in the big 'ol pork barrel.
By the way, the title to this thread bares little resemblance to the article, as usual. - peranadigital, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14As an Australian myself I find it amusing when anyone, anywhere claims that their country is better than someone elses. Blastcube, I hope you're young and haven't realised that the government and corporations have been lying to you for your entire life to lead you into doing what they want. Haven't you heard about phone tapping scandals in Australia, how do you think they caught the supposed terrorist doctor recently?
The American system isn't great but we'd have pretty much the same setup if we had more power in the world. Their system is the end result of all out capitilsm, where money has more value than ethics.- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Who's in charge of deciding what counts as "ethical" again?
- Toshibi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+16A true democracy is the tyranny of the majority over the minority. A constitutional democratic republic should, SHOULD, elect representatives which protect the rights of everyone against that tyranny of the majority. We have several problems; a two party system which brings us back to the majority rule, an uneducated and apathetic electorate, and the people that run for office are power seeking assholes instead of freedom fighters and thinkers.
- lajaw, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3Aren't firearms held by citizens illegal in Australia? And you think you have freedom. An unarmed populace makes for tyranny. Have fun!
- stolenisotope1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Haha, funny. We can get guns, just not as easily like with you Americans. You need a Gun Licence and a Permit to Acquire to get a gun. Your gun related murder rate is 12K, while ours is only about 70 or so. Our society is more civilised than yours, meaning we sort issues out by having a discussion, not pulling out a gun and opening fire. I don't see how our country can be controlled with Tyranny. We have everything checked and balanced, and if need be, the governor general can boot the Prime Minister out of office and have another election. The American society was based on slavery. Black men taken from their homes in africa were sent to work in the US, and you needed guns to control them. To this day, you people still use guns to sort out all of your problems.
- thewindfish, on 10/10/2007, -2/+0don't forget the Native Americans
- jessehadden, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Good points. America does have a gun problem, along with a lot of other problems, most of which have historical roots in very, very bad things that our ancestors did. What weapon did your ancestors prefer to use to quell the aborigines?
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1The black men were controlled with WHIPS my friend. And as for the Native Americans, they had quite a legal battle getting THEIR 2nd amendment rights enforced. (their right to own guns). In the end the supreme court ruled that the Indians COULD own guns but the president at the time (Jackson, the man on the $20) refused to enforce their decision.
SO Actually, the 2nd amendment was something the Indians were big fans of and wanted enforced--its amazing what you learn when you get your history from a book as opposed to a cartoon in a documentary.
- the6thReplicant, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1No. So start again.
- lajaw, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I was actually asking a question.............I did not know the answer. Maybe I was thinking of Great Britain. But guns are not the problem in the USA. The welfare system and the "war on drugs" and the open borders policy are the major "causes".
- cesig, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yes, because all of the armed American citizens have been vigilant protectors of their country's civil rights.
Oh wait, the armed ones think everything is fine.
- stolenisotope1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Haha, funny. We can get guns, just not as easily like with you Americans. You need a Gun Licence and a Permit to Acquire to get a gun. Your gun related murder rate is 12K, while ours is only about 70 or so. Our society is more civilised than yours, meaning we sort issues out by having a discussion, not pulling out a gun and opening fire. I don't see how our country can be controlled with Tyranny. We have everything checked and balanced, and if need be, the governor general can boot the Prime Minister out of office and have another election. The American society was based on slavery. Black men taken from their homes in africa were sent to work in the US, and you needed guns to control them. To this day, you people still use guns to sort out all of your problems.
- Jones82, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4At least we don't have to wait for Metroid Prime 3
- kestermatsumoto, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I wonder if the aboriginal peoples of your great free nation hold the same opinion?
- sdcarter, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8how's that whole security upgrade for APEC going? plenty of control over your government when people are annoyed with everything and the official statement from your government is "deal with it." Granted, it's not as bad as what we have going on these days... but just wait and see how quickly they'll retract their presence. Governments are like girlfriends... give them an inch and they take a mile... then they don't willingly give you anything back when they say they will.
- fancypantscz, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11As citizens in a 'free democracy' we have a civic duty to educate ourselves about our government and the world in which it operates and actively participate in process of shaping government to the benefit of our community's and our personal interests. I believe very few people take serious this fundamental duty and as a result our political power has been sold off to the highest bidder though a system of legal corruption that is centered on PACs and lobbyists.
Likewise, as consumers in a free market we have a duty to educate ourselves about the production and complete life cycle of the products we buy in order to nourish with our spending those corporations who's practices best serve our personal interests and those of our communities. But again very few take serious this fundamental duty. In stead pursuing our own interests many allow marketing strategies that pray on our pointless desires to be cool, powerful, sexy, successful, etc. to drive our market decisions. As a result we surrender our market power to marketing firms who auction them off to the highest corporate bidder.
As I see it for two or three generations we readily exercised our freedoms but have rarely taken responsibility for our communities or even our own interests with the choices we make. Unfortunately, even more depressing is the new trend of people too stupid to even know what their own communities and personal interests are let alone the responsibility to look after them. It was not always this way and I venture to say that we are just beginning to wake up to the real negative consequences of being lousy citizens and consumers.
Adam Smith's invisible hand of the market place only goes so far and when the system's fundamental unit be it a voter or consumer is no-longer willing or able to look after their own best interests the tyranny of our own freedom becomes a reality.
You have herd it before and I'll repeat it: America, wake the ***** up! We live in an ever more complicated world and we must educate ourselves in order to steer clear of the maelstrom our power drunk leaders are carelessly driving us into!!- BESTenemy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1That is what happens when instead of government fearing the people, people are afraid of the government. What does it take to keep the government in check? Civil disobedience with a bit of anarchistic approach. I know, diplomacy is supposed to work, but when the government resorts to using excessive force against the citizens, it is their duty to respond in the only language that government seems to understand. Peaceful protests? What have they ever accomplished? It leaves the participant with a sense of satisfaction and imaginary accomplishment.
- unsolicited, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1First Try to Invest Your Money
Second Try to Spend Your Money
Third Try to Save Your Money
in that order. - sirlancelot88, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Did you guys even read the article? It wasn't about a nation of consumers or capitalists. It was a discussion about economic fixes, lobbying, incentives, and various economic topics. A book review, actually. So why are you all starting to yell about "Democracy in America," the Bush administration, and Australia?
Can we keep to the proper thread topic please?- undetected, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I was just thinking the same thing. I read the article, then went back here to read the comments, and it became obvious people were commenting on the title and not the content.
- thewindfish, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0No. Dugg down.
- GerryBot, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4I use the word "consumer" as an insult. For me, consumer = cattle, people who exist to spend and spend and, you guessed it spend.
When you hear people who talk incessantly about purchases, house prices and all that other inane drivel you should think of them as unthinking cattle in a consumer economy. It's very sad.- Pixelante, on 10/10/2007, -5/+1It's not anybody's fault if you're piss-poor, you know. I just bought a nice plasma widescreen and I'm happy with it. It works nicely with my new Blu-Ray and HD players. It's so good to have a nice job that pays well and allows me to enjoy my money. Aaah, satisfaction.
What about you? Did you find your daily meal in the trashcan?- macweirdo42, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3What the hell? I make decent money, and I think you're a moron. Go, you stupid cow, continue to consume, until they lead you to the slaughterhouse.
- BrewBeau, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Ahh, the inevitable detachment from society and the sense of entitlement that comes from moderately high financial success. Let me guess, you were probably bothered when the TV delivery men had to phone you for your code to get in the gate of your cookie-cutter Mcmansion sub-division. I urge you to eat your own ***** and see first hand that it still tastes like *****.
- Pixelante, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Once again, Digg fails the sarcasm intelligence test.
- Pixelante, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Once again, Digg fails the sarcasm intelligence test.
- Pixelante, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Once again, Digg fails the sarcasm intelligence test.
- Ellipsys, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Have you ever thought those that discuss the housing market aren't cattle, but rather trying to make a smart investment at the right time to buy? Cattle would simply by the biggest house possible at the worst interest rate just to have it to show off!
- chrisc262, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1which most cattle did, thus their ARM is now unaffordable, so they cry to the government to save them, which they do, aw ***** it - i am the stupid one for buying within my means...
- BrewBeau, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Cattle are the people who's first concern in buying a home is the potential resale value.
- skidooer, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Why wouldn't it be a top concern? You would be nuts to drop $200K into a home that you know will only be worth $50K in 20 years.
- BrewBeau, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1there are going to be other factors that will tell you not to buy that home if it was going to drop like that, most likely. You would look at factors such as what other homes are selling for in the area and commercial trends, but ultimately your decision should be based on whether you'd be happy there.
- skidooer, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Why wouldn't it be a top concern? You would be nuts to drop $200K into a home that you know will only be worth $50K in 20 years.
- kindpastor, on 11/03/2007, -1/+1I'm sorry but you talk about consuming like its a bad thing when we need to consume to survive. Are you saying that we should only consume the bare minimum we need to live? What qualifies good consuming and bad consuming? Who gets to decide what level of consumption makes you "cattle" or not?
- beepimajeep, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0another diggtard proves he hasn't worked a day in his life lol
- Pixelante, on 10/10/2007, -5/+1It's not anybody's fault if you're piss-poor, you know. I just bought a nice plasma widescreen and I'm happy with it. It works nicely with my new Blu-Ray and HD players. It's so good to have a nice job that pays well and allows me to enjoy my money. Aaah, satisfaction.
- ceris, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1It's a brave new world.
- crazywarthog, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Americans want everything now and are rather lazy. So what is the easiest path of least resistance. Get in debt up to your eye balls and eat as much as you can. And people actually wonder why they are in debt and are so ugly fat !!!
- cesig, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1In no way is this a stereotype. *rolleyes*
- jodido, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1"Consumer," "citizen"--where are the PRODUCERS of wealth? The one word that's always missing is "worker." Yes, Virginia, there is a working class in the US--not just some vague amorphous "middle class." It's the working class that produces the wealth, and the working class whose lives are getting worse and worse. And the other word that's missing is "unions." The working class needs unions to protect itself. Just ask coal miners.
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If you're thinking of starting a new Union you might want to start in China--thats where the American "working class" will come from these days.
- satx, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4FTA: "One of the book’s examples of consumers’ hypocrisy has to do with canned tuna. J. W. Connolly, former president of Heinz U.S.A., which was the parent company of StarKist, explains that “consumers wanted a dolphin-safe product,” but “if there was a dolphin-safe can of tuna next to a regular can, people chose the cheaper product. Even if the difference was a penny.” The company terminated its higher-cost effort to protect dolphins. After all, it’s a business, beholden to consumers and shareholders."
This is why I hate people.- legatus, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Because the general public never gave a dam about dolphins, it was special interest that pushed the safe tuna movement. Just like special interest is pushing ethanol, a overall negative to the energy supply that will drive the price of most foods through the roof.
- mithrasinvictus, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2just ban the stuff, solved.
- taquitohater, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Amen brother, I almost cried when I read that, mostly because my own mother is one of those people. She might love dolphins, but if one can says no dolphins killed, and another says 50% more dolphin in every bite, she'll buy the cheap dolphin, screw tuna, it's expensive!
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Why is it better to eat a Tuna than a Dolphin. I feel sorry for the tuna, just because he isn't cute and playful he gets eaten all the time and Dolphins get special protection. They're both creatures of the sea--why is it so bad when one dies for my lunch and not the other?
- bungoman, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0That's actually why I love people. When you get down to it they tend to make rational decisions.
- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -4/+4I love how the lefty socialists who look down on capitalism and accuse those in power of lying to them about Iraq and disappointing them during Katrina are the same ones that want to give them MORE power to control our health care system, control prices through anti price gouging laws and to regulate all our behavior to be sure we are politically correct in all of our actions. We need LESS government, not MORE which means more consumerism through less government controls.
- the6thReplicant, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3I guess making up stuff that your enemy might do will win arguments in the States, but really it doesn't make you look smart at all.
- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Making what up? The Republicans in the states lied about Iraq and now we are stuck in a war without end. They responded slowly and inefficiently to the situation after Hurricane Katrina. Now we are talking about electing a Democrat for president that will promise to provide universal health care, improve government schools and to regulate through laws our behavior to make sure it fits their idea of a great society. What would make anyone think that they can be trusted anymore than the Republican we have now? Did Hillary vote against the Iraq war? We need a president that will bring less government interference in both our personal lives and also for corporations to be able to manipulate. If corporations actually had to respond to market forces without the government propping them up we wouldn't be having the airline and housing market situations we have now.
- mousky, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2I like how lefty socialists peddle their wares, like a new book, priced at $25. I wonder if Mr. Reich will voluntarily share any of the profit with low income households?
- skinturtle, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1You dork. Health care SHOULD be something the government looks after. Health care is a social program..ya know..societial matters...the things we install governments to govern. Corporations are there to make money..at any cost, even a human life.
- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Right government run health care... Once that is in place, come back to me in 5 years and tell me you don't wish you could pay more to get better care. Instead you or a family member will be on a waiting list for months if not years to get surgery because some government agency has decided in what order to treat people. And the poor, homeless and others that universal healthcare will claim to help will still be without it. After all you will need an address to send all the paperwork to and you will have to be able to read and understand it in order to get the coverage that is "universal".
- coustoe, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1crashcar your words ring true though non intuitive, but you can't fault our liberal digg drones, why should they question what they are told by the media and the state owned education system.
Ahhh if only Karl Marx would have thought of a way to implement communism, good ideas no practical implementation, And that is why liberals will always be whiners instead of doers. - jessehadden, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0So, to you, there is just a "right" and a "left" and you pick which side you're on? That predominant political belief is exactly what is allowing America to be gutted by the Republicrats and Democans -- neither of which have anything to do with "conservativism" or "liberalism," or really any political ideology, beyond greed and lust for raw power.
- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1No I believe that the republicans and democrats are on one side and anyone buying into either one is feeding into the false "battle" between the two. Clinton, Obama, Bush... all the same to me. If Bush really was a Republican in the true sense of the term then he wouldn't be pushing for bigger and more expensive government programs like No Child Left Behind which have been shown to have little to no effect for the amount of money being spent. Just like Clinton and Obama can claim to be Democrats and support equal rights but go on LOGO (the gay/lesbian channel) and actually state they do not agree with same sex marriage.
- the6thReplicant, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3I guess making up stuff that your enemy might do will win arguments in the States, but really it doesn't make you look smart at all.
- Gimli, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2NY Times enough said...I buried for it is lame!
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4consumerism = profit = money for nothing.
2 dollars for 1 dollars worth of product.
only a few really benefit from this system, we are all seduced by the possibility of becoming rich off this system.
Most of us will just scrape by and many will end up on the street with nothing.
We are all complicit in the crime, and it is a crime; its a confidence trick.
the alternative is everybody working and being happy with the fruits of their own labour and that is too boring to contemplate i guess.- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2So, if I take a lump of clay which is worth a few cents and put into it my ideas to make it into a vase, then want to sell it for more than a few cents then I am trying to make money for nothing? I am just amazed at how some people think if you want to earn a better living than someone else through your talent or hard work then that is a bad thing.
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1art is a little different
i am talking about mass manufacture; the 'militarization' of profit, if you will.- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Did I say art? What about terra cotta pottery that is made into lamps and sold en masse? Or is art exempt because like most leftists, certain things are OK as long as it fits your idea of what is right? I thought art should be made as just an expression not for a profit motive?
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1So you want to mass produce a product and sell it for *more* than materials/labour/shipping etc.
you want to get rich off a system that fundamentally exists by stealing money from others.
you clearly cannot see the argument i am putting forward. - crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1What argument is that? No one should be compensated beyond what the raw materials cost and labour (and who determines how much that labour is worth?)? Then what incentive is there for anyone to do anything if they have absolutely nothing to gain from it besides just providing a product to hand over to their comrades?
- kindpastor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I don't think he's going to answer you mate, too bad I was a bit interested in his response.
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1art is a little different
- beepimajeep, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Wow, you must have been dropped on your head as a child.
- crashcarr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2So, if I take a lump of clay which is worth a few cents and put into it my ideas to make it into a vase, then want to sell it for more than a few cents then I am trying to make money for nothing? I am just amazed at how some people think if you want to earn a better living than someone else through your talent or hard work then that is a bad thing.
- smacksaw, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9There's a lot of complicated solutions being presented here, and of course Reich is proposing things that further his socialist/left ideals, but the biggest fix for all of these problems is curbing corporations. Like...uh...hate to say it...Ron Paul is suggesting.
He's right. If corporations had less rights/protections, their influence would wane. I'm not like Reich. I don't want to see the return of unions. But I don't want them to have to lobby the ***** out of Congress because corporations do. I want them both much weaker, but available. I want good corporations and I want unions as an option.
I want neither as an institution.
Sorry, but the answer is never MORE laws and regulation. The answer is better laws, simpler laws, fairer laws. Reich is just purporting that we keep plugging holes in the dike while new ones keep bursting water out. - liuite, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1we have been PWNed
- taquitohater, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0OMGWTFBBQLOL
- DjLoTi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1As consumers, we consume happiness. Otherwise, we wouldn't consume it.
So, which ever politician succeeds in making us 'feel good' and gives us that 'happy feeling', we'll consume their sales-pitch and let them screw us in any way they'd like - etnlIcarus, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Just to compliment peranadigital's response to blastcube, as another Australian citizen, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the less naive Australians who don't play this juvenile game of, "this is your country's problem, thank God I live in Australia".
blastcube and stolenisotope1; Try learning a little more about your own country before expounding the merits and foibles of foreign powers. Australia has a long, sad history of gov't corruption, propaganda and strong-arm tactics. Not to mention the mismanagement of resources, reluctance to enact democratically necessary reform, diplomatic blunders, failure to protect citizen's rights, general gov't apathy and the increasing threats of special interest perversion of policy and voter polarisation and disconnect.
If you want to be patriotic and prideful, stop posting propaganda and inciting rivalry on the Internet and start looking at what's happening around you. - Mavenshade, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1What about bringing Unions back, and this time to the Corporate Level. Like the days of old when gap between workers and management became to great, Unions came in and created the middle class. The same Union structure could exist today between Lower / Middle Management and Upper / Executive Management.
- CasaDeQueso, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1so to be a citizen, we have to be a laborer?
- chrisc262, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1no, just collect welfare, you lazy bastard
- CasaDeQueso, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1how can you be a consumer if you don't work for a living?
- Leomarth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1By spending other people's hard earned money of course. That's the welfare dream.
- CasaDeQueso, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1how can you be a consumer if you don't work for a living?
- chrisc262, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1no, just collect welfare, you lazy bastard
- bsmeteronhigh, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1When our government reclassifies flipping burgers from a service sector job to a manufacturing job, you know we're in trouble. I think the demise of our nation truly began with the idea that information was more valuable than physical products.
- Leomarth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1In our modern economy, you can't really do your job without getting information. The more efficiently we get information delivered, the easier it is to do other jobs.
- doug141, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0"So here’s my suggestion: a legally binding maximum on C.E.O. multiples of their own workers’ salaries. Let’s pick a multiple of 300, well above the historical average. If chief executives want to be paid hundreds of millions, and boards comply, no problem; the C.E.O.’s task would be to figure out how to pay the company’s lowest worker hundreds of thousands."
Doesn't this make the CEO's personal financial interest to replace people with skills worth less than hundreds of thousands with robots?- tsotha, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yes it does. But replacing people with robots would take some investment. More likely the lower-paid workers would simply be spun off as a separate company.
This kind of legislation would have all kinds of unintended consequences, and yet it wouldn't do what it's supposed to do.
- tsotha, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yes it does. But replacing people with robots would take some investment. More likely the lower-paid workers would simply be spun off as a separate company.
- kd1s, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I'm sorry but corporations bear the brunt here too. Profit motivates all. Even if it is cheaper for us, they make obscene profits.
And then they take those profits and buy government. Got to love how that works.- Error601, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2You reall should take some time to read a few annual reports. Market pressure puts profit margins at only a few percent if you're lucky enough to have a profit margin.
- Error601, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2You reall should take some time to read a few annual reports. Market pressure puts profit margins at only a few percent if you're lucky enough to have a profit margin.
- mousky, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Does anyone see the irony in someone talking about citizens becoming consumers peddling his book (the article cites the publisher and price). He is correct that we are hypocrites, Mr. Reich included.
- TopKnot, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1This is what I got out of the "Third Reich" article: Don't let anyone who owns a business or represents a business any where near a politician. The quote below says it all...politicians will take what is offered to them no matter if it's legal or moral.
[Mr. Reich argues that the “most effective thing reformers could do is to reduce the effects of corporate money on politics and enhance the voices of citizens.”] - Error601, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Is it ironic to have fake news book spam considering the subject matter of the book?
- albinoazian, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Aussies are cracking me up about their great system . . . unless of course you are an Aborigine.
- lukehh, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2A: Ed Bernays
- spyd3rweb, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1good old ed, can't imagine what the world would have been like without him.
- skinturtle, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1CEO's, Executives and their lawyers are the worst kind of human slime.
- jbus, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1Consumers are bad. Walmart is good... What a load of *****. Buried.
- lebaige, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1There's something really satisfying about hitting that lovely little thumbs down button on some huge angry multi-paragraph digg post comment and watching it all just scroll away ,,,
- Leomarth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1It came from wanting to pamper our children and give them a better life. We did it "for the children".
- Gambit89, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"It" was designed in such a "way" that children be "well educated" through public schools, and, as one of the intended consequences of this, to become good consumers.
"But how can consumers be taught through public schools? Isn't this non-sequitur?" What is meant by "it", "way", and "well educated"? John Taylor Gatto briefly explains... http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm - philz, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I'm tempted to make a comment like: IT'S A TRAP!
But then again, there probably is already one like it. - enginbeering, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"In passing, Mr. Reich comes out in favor of decoupling health insurance from employers and raising the minimum wage to about half the average worker’s wage."
I'm not sure high school kids with summer jobs should be paid half the average worker's wage, for example. The market dictates wages, and requiring businesses to compensate their employees for more than what they're worth is just going to hurt business and skyrocket unemployment.
This guy's just in favor of more regulation, which isn't going to solve anything.
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