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154 Comments
- cheekybastard, on 10/10/2007, -6/+37Sicko was an understatement.
- etnu, on 10/10/2007, -0/+17This is what happens when you hide the real cost of health care from the public and let insurance act as middle men.
Insurance companies would not be in business if they were paying more in claims than they were bringing in premiums...a lot more.
If you're paying $400 a month for coverage (and that's dirt cheap), you're probably paying about double what most people's medical bills would be if the health insurance industry didn't exist.
The biggest problem? All the idiots going to the emergency room when they have the flu or some other minor condition that has no business in a hospital. You're probably eating up at least $500 in labor expenses for the hospital. Half of those people have to be written off anyway, with the cost simply passed on to the paying customers.
When my daughter was born, the total bill that the insurance company paid out was over $40,000 (and this was a normal delivery!). For the epidural alone it was $3,000. You think the anesthesiologist's labor (about 20 minutes) + the medication & supplies was even a tenth of that? - arcooke, on 10/10/2007, -3/+16This is as good a place as any to ask this question.. Everyone here hypes up Ron Paul.. but from what I've read, he's against net neutrality, and he's against universal health care. Can someone clarify for me? I've searched over and over and keep coming up with contradicting answers. If this is true.. I'm incredibly surprised people here support him (if not, he sounds like the best candidate so far). Thanks.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -2/+14Spoken like someone who has never had to buy insurance coverage outside of a major corporation.
- brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10A lovely anecdote to go along with this. I work for one of the wealthiest companies in the world. We have what would be considered a very good health plan. I haven't had a physical in years though and I haven't been able to get prescriptions filled on multiple occasions. The companies that are supposed to be paying my doctors visits and prescriptions make things as difficult as possible to get things paid. I fill out all the forms, make sure I go to approved doctors, check that the generic brands are being prescribed (pretty sure this automatic for doctors these days), etc. Doesn't matter. I have allergies that cause me to miss almost a week of work a year but I can't get an F'ing allergy medicine prescription filled to save...well to save my life. Even seemingly good health insurance sucks.
- cocreator10, on 10/10/2007, -4/+14 With health insurance they trick you into buying the pillow they put over your face so you will die quietly and not upset the other "natives".
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9What truly baffles me is how few insurance carriers cover wellness. Wellness care would save them loads of money in the long term, finding problems while they're small and treatable instead of catastrophic. Think of it this way: It's cheaper to pay for regular oil changes over the life of a car instead of having to buy one or two new engines due to neglect.
- Y0tsuya, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11Is it too early to call a healthcare bubble? I mean we just went through a stock bubble, credit bubble, then a housing bubble. There can't be that many bubbles right? But all that money has to be going somewhere. Somebody's making money hand over fist.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Want to name a few? All the ones I looked at that didn't have a deductable that cost more than most major surgeries wanted in excess of 500 to 700 bucks a month.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7You're kidding, right? A family plan? LOL! Maybe with a $50,000 deductible...
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Given that the pharmaceutical industry is what bent us all over via buying the current flavor of legislation, you'll excuse me if I fail to put my trust in them.
- brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I'm guessing he has catastrophe insurance where he pays everything under $2000. Failing that he's probably paying well over $50 per doctor's visit. Even with my company paying almost all of my health insurance I'm paying the better part of $120 a month JUST FOR ME!
- magamiako, on 10/10/2007, -4/+10One of these days I'm going to write up a critical blog post regarding Ron Paul. But the person that you replied to is correct. And you sir, are wrong. At the end of the day, what was the Constitution invented for? Pretty much regulating the people in power so that they don't overly abuse their powers. Sure, the government does some shady ***** to try and get around the Constitution. Yes, a lot of shady ***** they've done recently is a result of this Administration. But at the end of the day they are still regulated by laws and rules that our founding fathers created. At the end of the day, the court system decides whether or not you should go to jail for what you've done.
The American public right now is not capable of living in an anarchy, just like certain middle eastern countries are not capable of living in a democracy. We should not look at running our country currently like a pure darwin-based system, which is where it would head if things were handed over to the corporations.
With no laws regulating how they treat their customers, believe me that things would be far, far, far worse for the US. It was ***** corporations treating their employees like ***** and their customers like ***** that caused all of this government regulation to begin with. And I assure you that things would go right back to that and there's nothing you could do about it. Why? Because you need money and a job, right? - lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6That's what HMO's were originally supposed to be.... systems that encouraged you to be well... for example, yearly physicals were mandatory... but, then they morphed into just denying you any care of any sort.
- KhanneaSuntzu, on 10/10/2007, -6/+11...and with your elective system, americans will be UNABLE to do anything about it.
Suggestion: get yourself a ***** democracy, idiots. - brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5A critical surgery would have an even shorter wait time. The "six month wait times" excuse is just that, an excuse. The World Health Organization didn't rank our health care system 37th because they don't like cowboy movies.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -3/+8Nice GOP talking point.. care to back it up with some facts? It's the "free market" that is causing this... although the market isn't really free... not because of government, but because of insurance oligopolies dictating who you can or can't see and what treatments they will cover you for. Less government woudl make the problem even worse!
- arcooke, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Thanks for the reply. As far as net neutrality goes, I don't think preserving that should be considered regulation. It's more like protecting freedoms if you ask me.. which is what this country is *supposed* to be all about. His intentions are good, but I don't think I can back him up on those views (if what you say is correct).
- brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Insurance isn't a trick, it is a gamble. You're betting you'll get sick and the insurance company is betting you won't. They get to lobby to change what defines "sick" and what sort of treatments they have to pay for if you do qualify as "sick" though. It is statistically unlikely that the healthcare company will have to pay out nearly as much as you pay in. Oh and if you lose your job and/or miss a couple payments your coverage stops and you don't get any of that money you paid back.
- brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Insurance companies and drug companies are making the money. Doctors aren't hurting either but they're also the ones actually providing the service. It isn't about to burst if it is a bubble. Nobody can touch the US health care system. People just keep paying more and more while services get eliminated or degraded.
- hornsworth, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5"Now for those of you who want completely socialized medicine, a 6 month waiting list for an MRI isn´t very palatable either."
It really makes me sad to see this kind of comment, if you're really looking for the truth. If you do any real research, eg http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf , you will find that the real wait time for any emergency or critical procedure is no where near 6 months. For example, "The median wait time for selected non-emergency diagnostic tests (CT, MRI, or angiography) was 3.0 weeks."
The fact seems to be that in Canada, universal health care costs the nation much less, is more even, available and less confusing for individuals. It's true that those with more resources may be able to afford better health care, which is why constant pushing on providers is essential in any environment, and a hybrid solution may be best, if it is based on providing basic health care for everyone. - Calcularius, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6the "illegals" are here because people hire them illegally. Why do you think businesses keep illegally hiring "illegals"? It's because they don't have to pay for health care, or even minimum wage!!! Your fear-talk of the spooky, ever-present "illegals" running rampant is so old and busted.
- mellon, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Unfortunately, health insurance that doesn't spread risk can't help but be expensive - the system is broken. And since Ron Paul is against government intervention, if he somehow gets elected, he's just going to make it worse. The one thing he could and probably would try to do (but that Congress wouldn't let him do) is get rid of the current brokenness that allows companies to deduct the cost of health insurance, but doesn't allow individuals to do it. That would certainly help, but as long as health insurance is treated as anything other than a universal risk pool, it really can't work. And I don't see Ron Paul doing anything about that.
- magamiako, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Actually, the market isn't "gradually correcting itself". The markets wouldn't correct anything since it would be a sort of Darwin-based system. What would happen is that the larger corporations could bully these ISPs and others out of the system.
If you want to see an example of companies bullying someone else, just take a look at the whole Manhunt 2 fiasco.
Ask yourself this: Did the US Government ever step in and BAN Manhunt 2 from being sold in the United States?
Then ask yourself: Who prevented Manhunt 2 from heading to the market in its original form? - pintomp3, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4if only it was a gamble. it's more like playing poker with someone who keeps redefining the winning hand to suit their convenience.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4X-rays or it didn't happen.
- Esko6, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Interesting, I would just like to point out that in Denmark the infant mortality rate is 4.45 per 1000, and in the US it is 6.37 according to the UN.
- Nation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4LOL, we do not currently have a free market in the health care system. We don't even have a free market if you look at the little slice of "insurance system" since health insurance cannot legally be sold across state lines. I mentioned a number of other reasons it is not a free market above, like the fact that you do not have to pay (or have someone else to pay) to receive the good or service ... that is mandated by the federal government. What happens when the federal government says "you must give away your good/service for free to this group of people?"
Simple answer is you are no longer in a free market. - aTTicus78, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4The company I work for offered insurance benefits for $19.00 per paycheck (paychecks consisting of an 80 hour / or every two week time-frame) in 2001. Now, just six years later in 2007 it costs me $55.00/pay check. That is a hell of an increase. Not considering minimal annual wage raises or inflation, the costs is alarming and ridiculous.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Ah, no. This is what you get when the pharmaceutical companies and HMOs get to dictate policy with dollars.
- reddevil3, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Once these people graduate from high school/college, they'll enter the real world and realize how libertarian views aren't practical.
Libertarians see the free market as some kind of utopia where everyone is truly blissful and everything is cheap and there's a lot of competition. Sorry, but that is just wishful thinking. Why do you think no one in the world has ever adopted laissez-faire capitalism? Because it's just not practical. - lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Tax incentives for medical schools... why that's a brilliant GOP-style idea... except that med schools are non-profit and don't pay taxes... whoops!
- LMControl, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6And Hit-lery's solution will be to raise your taxes twice as much as you're pay.....
- martoq, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5"47 million Americans don't have health care..."
I leaves me dumbfounded when I hear that its even a question about giving illegal aliens health insurance when we cannot even support our own citizens! - arcooke, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Thanks. The whole Ron Paul thing just seems like a massive cult following to me.. I don't think most of the people here who claim to support him really know what his views are. I'm one of those people, but I don't want to form an opinion until I get all the facts. Let me know if/when you make that post. My digg name @ gmail
- Nation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3LOL, we do not currently have a free market in the health care system. We don't even have a free market if you look at the little slice of "insurance system" since health insurance cannot legally be sold across state lines. I mentioned a number of other reasons it is not a free market above, like the fact that you do not have to pay (or have someone else to pay) to receive the good or service ... that is mandated by the federal government. What happens when the federal government says "you must give away your good/service for free to this group of people?"
Simple answer is you are no longer in a free market. - Calcularius, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3photo or it didn't happen
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Totally agree... now convince the Big Pharma lobbyists... I think you'll be there awhile...
- fuckingusername, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3here is my plan, bring the boys back home. Put them on the Mexican boarder.
set up trailers across the US have all ill-eagles that are here finger printed ID.
give are government a real good screening, Make voting online, with all the money saved free health care and good education.
Gorge Carlin said it the best your government doesn't want good education, because people might be able to think for them selves ............ - Nation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3insurance companies have played a part ... since a person is more willing to "get what they are due" and go in to the Dr for every little thing, attempting to get that $45 per paycheck (or whatever amount). If instead you had to pay cash, or credit, for your heath care, people would not waist as much and would be more careful as to what the medical professionals did.
Same reason the government wanted your income tax to be taken out of your paycheck, before this was instituted you would have to pay a big bill once a year. If they raised taxes you would feel it. The population revolted. Now that it is taken away little by little -- and you don't notice you are less likely to revolt. - Dumbledorito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Again, can you point to a company? What's your deductable? How much are meds? Telling me how much you pay doesn't tell me much about how good a plan this is.
- Nation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3you are correct libertythor, it is funny how so many of these people do not get that free market and major government regulations cannot be the in the same system.
What other system has a federal law forcing them to give away their good/service for free to basically anyone who does not pay? - brufleth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3"All insurance companies work on the basis that all the premiums collected will eventually be paid out as claims."
FALSE. Insurance companies pay a lot of money to their mathematicians to crunch the numbers to make sure they always come out ahead. They know that it is unlikely you will ever incur expenses equal to what you're paying in for insurance. Paying for insurance is just like placing a bet in a casino and the roulette wheel is your own health and you're betting you get sick. - swings1940, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4American's who aren't in a union wonder why people picket for higher wages and the health coverage issue is why. I have a friend who works for the state and recieved a 3% increase for wages, while inflation (I hear) is 4%. Now that I hear that health insurance goes up an average of 9% for most Americans. It's no wonder why people in America struggle to make ends meet. The cost of living (sorry for the sick medical joke) is just way to high.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3While I agree that it's important for people to know how much they are getting billed... knowledge alone won't change anything... I mean, your wife wasn't going to just NOT have the baby 'cos it was too expensive... nor was she going to shop around for the cheapest OB-GYN and hospital. That baby was going to come out and that was it!
Health care is a captive market... people don't have a choice... you either pay or you die... in that situation, of course they providers are going to squeeze your for every penny.. no different than Lenny the Loan Shark would. - Nation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+31. you have not seen it in every situation
2. free market capitalism does not grantee that everyone will have the same standard of living and live until they are 126 (or anything like that)
3. for what it attempts to do, capitalism does "work in every situation" since it achieves the goals within it. - cygnus2112, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Don't forget the insane malpractice insurance costs because of frivolous lawsuits made by tort lawyers (Hi John Edwards!)
Either way you look at it, America has been gang-raped by the insurance companies, pharmaceutical industry and hordes of self-indulgent lawyers. Until Congress has the balls to step up to these industries, the costs will continue to skyrocket and you and me will continue to pay, because we have few other choices. - hornsworth, on 10/10/2007, -4/+6Actually, total medical costs in countries with "socialized" medicine are far lower than in the US. And the wait time issue is a boondongle. Read this, http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf, "The median wait time for selected non-emergency diagnostic tests (CT, MRI, or angiography) was 3.0 weeks" then go see Sicko, and ask yourself who is being served by your system.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Why is it so hard to believe that some people dont want a 60% tax rate?
- justlook, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Please don't start questioning health insurance costs and why your property taxes are increasing to help pay for it. Instead, focus your attention on Britney Spears. Thank you from the Health Care Industry For America.
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