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- imnotquitesure, on 10/12/2007, -7/+67I saw "Swedish model," but I wasn't thinking economics.
- TopherT, on 10/12/2007, -28/+79Yeah, those poor Swedes with their great infrastructure, health care, education and lack of military entanglements, pity them.
- ViperDaimao, on 10/12/2007, -2/+33actually you're mixing two Churchill quotes.
* Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Attributed - KriLL3.2™, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31I hate people that cant tell Sweden and Switzerland apart, are maps that rare in the USA?
- ThrasherC, on 10/12/2007, -19/+40"Yeah, those poor Swedes with their great infrastructure, health care, education and lack of military entanglements, pity them."
Did you not read the article? All of that "great infrastructure" comes at a very high cost that can't be sustained. Churchill had it right when he said "Capitalism is the worst possible system except for all the others." - ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -7/+28And the quality of life is much better right now for someone who just bought a house with an interest-only mortgage.
Analyzing the long-term consequences of policy decisions is critical to avoiding potential pitfalls. Holding onto a myopic perspective and/or ignoring economic principles helps no one. - cogit0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21Swiss Army knives originated in Switzerland, not Sweden.
- xavihax0r, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21Swiss Army knives are not from Sweden, they are from Switzerland. You have just made all american's look extremely pathetic.
- Paroparo, on 10/12/2007, -16/+36Urmm.. Great, another one of these old conservative ultra-capitalists. As someone who lives in the Nordic countries, I really don't understand how so many people are fascinated by a system where wealth tends to polarize to the wealthy, healthcare for the poor is damn hard to get and you have to pay an arm and a leg to get an education.
I'm not saying "capitalism bad, socialism good" and not even going to mention the ghost of communism, but rather advice people to view both as opposite ends of a line drawn in the sand, both of which are bad news when taken to the extreme. And don't call me a communist, communists call me a damn dirty capitalist. =P - ThrasherC, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23@CGreen
First, Sweden is more specifically a Mixed Economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economies
Secondly, I wasn't speaking in reference to Sweden's entire economic system, but more specifically to the socialist reforms that are discussed at great length in the article. These reforms brought about a socialist-like welfare system, which although beneficial in the short-term, cannot be sustained at great length due to the high tax rates and eventual stifling-effect it has on innovation within a country. Ultimately, if I know that creating a new product or service will not really benefit me in the long run because I will just lose more money to taxes, then I have no motivation to create that product or service in the first place. A welfare state fundamentally encourages people to rely on the system. - xavihax0r, on 10/12/2007, -15/+33i wouldn't just go bashing if you don't agree with them. They provide thoughtful commentary usually written by professors or other professionals, something very hard to find on the web these days. Original content is very hard to find on the web these days, and i appreciate their ability to spend the time and money to provide us news addicts with challenging reading.
also, good article, but would have liked to see some footnotes. - TopherT, on 10/12/2007, -29/+46I'd rather pay 75% tax in Sweden and have half of that go to social welfare and bolster equality than pay 25% in the USA and have half of that fund a bloated military who's technological boondoggles are used to kill people. At least the tax I was paying would yeild some benefits for me and mine.
- patientzero, on 10/12/2007, -18/+35"All for the low low price of 75% of your income and free herd membership."
How much of your income do you give up for your education, transportation, health care, housing and energy? The difference is, you give it to private corporations that you have little to no control over.
Although we rarely exercise it, we have the ability to control how our government spends tax dollars. Its based upon this *really* complicated system where you show up at a voting booth every so often with some knowledge--you know, that stuff you get from reading--and choose who you feel represents your ideas best. - ahawks, on 10/12/2007, -9/+24"Government make-work projects never improve peoples lives, but only waste resources."
Agreed. Like you know... Rail Roads, Highways, and Dams. They did absolutely *nothing* for the US, did they? ;) - CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -21/+35I don't care what you say its easily observable that their quality of life is much better than ours here in the US and thats all that matters. You can go ahead and say one day such and such will happen but you can always make up what if's. Right now it sounds like a hell of an improvement from the mess we're getting into deeper all the time.
- CGreen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Today the Swedish central bank posted GDP figures from the second quarter this year, it was 5.5% growth.
Source:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=678&a=563527&previousRenderType=6
Much higher then anyone was expecting. - Iceduck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Whether or not a high-tax system with extensive welfare services is good or not is a very tiring debate. There is however a problem with paying 65% in "top-end" taxes with a progressive tax system like we have here in Denmark (if you make more than a certain amount you are taxed the top-end tax for this amount). If you are only allowed to keep 35% of your income you have less incentive to work harder and make more money, and ultimately it's a huge problem. There is a clear tendency here that politicians want to lower taxes, but it will never be as low as in countries like the US.
Also, it's kinda amazing that the Social-Democrats managed to stay in power for 44 consecutive years in Sweden. That can't be good. - bntphoretwunny, on 10/12/2007, -10/+23heard that! giggidy.
- ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18"I'd rather pay 75% tax in Sweden and have half of that go to social welfare and bolster equality than pay 25% in the USA and have half of that fund a bloated military who's technological boondoggles are used to kill people."
Perhaps you should look at the actual numbers before perpetuating falsehoods.
From the 2004 budget (in billions and % of budget):
Defense: $454.1 (20.7%)
Social Security: $491.5 (22.4%)
Means-Tested Entitlements: $328.6 (15.0%)
Medicare: $264.9 (12.1%)
Everything else: 652.1 (29.7%) - Poco, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15@uttles - "...In fact, a lot of capitalists and liberty-minded people are scared ***** at the amount of socialism loving democracts and the influx of immigrants (legal and illegal) demanding the US taxpayer gives them money."
Um, well, being scared ***** of immigrants is not a "capitalists" trait. You sir are a redneck, not a capitalist. A good capitalist likes free immigration and trade because it allows the market to move more naturally. - welk, on 10/12/2007, -12/+24They sure built a lot of nice fake towns and cities, drive good fake cars, and have some great fake schools and universities.
- Optimistic, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19What about the American Myth?
NOTE: These are from 1991, things got a little better with Clinton, then got worse with Bush, so it is probably still about right.
Poverty level:
United States 17.1%
Sweden 5.3
Children under the poverty level:
United States 22.4%
Sweden 5.0
Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):
United States 10.4
Sweden 5.9
Percentage of families headed by single parents:
United States 8.0%
Sweden 3.2
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2
Sweden 0.6
Average paid vacation per year:
Sweden 25.0
United States 12.0
Voter participation:
Sweden 86
United States 49
The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 = least freedom, 40 = most freedom. More.):
Sweden 38
United States 33
Americans without ANY health coverage:
50 million at any one time. (1/6th your population)
70 million over the course of a year.
Here are more details:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm
Yep, nice society you Americans have created. I'll stay here in Europe, thanks. - saifatlast, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15I think he's going for this:
FEUDALISM:
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
PURE SOCIALISM:
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.
BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM:
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.
FASCISM:
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.
PURE COMMUNISM:
You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.
RUSSIAN COMMUNISM:
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.
DICTATORSHIP:
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.
SINGAPOREAN DEMOCRACY:
You have two cows. The government fines you for keeping two unlicensed farm animals in an apartment.
MILITARISM:
You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.
PURE DEMOCRACY:
You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY:
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY:
The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".
BRITISH DEMOCRACY:
You have two cows. You feed them sheeps' brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.
BUREAUCRACY:
You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.
ANARCHY:
You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors try to kill you and take the cows.
CAPITALISM:
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
HONG KONG CAPITALISM:
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping five cows. The milk rights of six cows are transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all seven cows' milk back to the listed company. The annual report says that the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Meanwhile, you kill the two cows because the fung shui is bad.
ENVIRONMENTALISM:
You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.
FEMINISM:
You have two cows. They get married and adopt a veal calf.
TOTALITARIANISM:
You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS:
You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo-centric, war-mongering,intolerant past) two differently-aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.
COUNTER CULTURE:
Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man. You got to have some of this milk.
SURREALISM:
You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
JAPANESE DEMOCRACY:
You have two cows. You give the milk to gangsters so they don't ask any awkward questions about who you're giving the milk to.
taken from: http://www.laughbreak.com/lists/cow_politics_101.html - Mrkamikaze, on 10/12/2007, -35/+45All for the low low price of 75% of your income and free herd membership.
- DrKevorkian, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16The point of the article wasn't that sweden isn't a great place to live now, because it is, the point is that it has nothing at all to do with the socialistic policies implemented there and that in fact those policies are actively undermining whatever economic progress was made under freer times
- octavius8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I've lived both in Europe and in the US, and the reality is that taxes are not much higher in Europe.
The tax rate in the US is really high. Usually like 34% federal taxes. Now if you live in some other state than texas you usually have to pay state tax. Add another 10%. Then there is sales tax, so add another 10%. There you are over 50% already and it doesn't even include real estate tax, assorted fees, death taxes, etc.
Where the real difference is what you get for those taxes. European countries seem to be able to provide more with social services than the US. Probably because here all that money is going to wage wars. - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Hopefully you're native because the non-native Swedish unemployment rate is _over_ 50%!
FTA:
The headline unemployment rate in Sweden is only 5-5.5%, but this number is extremely misleading as it only includes a small number of the people who the government pays not to work. Many unemployed are sent to so-called "labor market political activities" who have no meaningful purpose then to reduce the headline unemployment number. Including them, unemployment is 8%. And if you also include the enourmous number of early retirees and people who live of sickness benefits, the real unemployment rate is more like 25% rather than 5%.
Additionally, I'd like to see Sweden, and their economy, take in literally MILLIONS of "undocumented workers" every year and see if their economic picture could stay that rosy. I'll bet it couldn't. - Mrkamikaze, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@xavihax0r
Well thats hella easy when you live in a mono-culture like most European countries that shares a common ethnic background. Melting pots are hard as hell to manage. - vuzman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I live in Sweden, and no one here pays 75% in taxes, that's a ridiculous over-statement. It's more like 30-40%. Combined with other taxes, such as sales tax (VAT), the number is 40-50%.
- pingviini, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11because the *war-resisters* .com web site is a good source on unbaised military spending statistics
- Mrkamikaze, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13If i am a cow in Romania and my neighbor has a Jew a protestant and a Catholic...oh nevermind.
- slundal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Just for the record. The left party in sweden is NOT in any way associated with comunism and has not been for nearly six decades.
- ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11@CiXeL
So, how much murder, theft, and fraud is the "middle ground"? - ThrasherC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ViperDaimao
Good catch...that's what I get for googling for quotes really fast when replying. Same comments apply though. - osiris8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Sweden is not perfect in any way, but I quite like how we're doing things (looking at the big picture).
Always pay close attention to the sources on stories - Stefan Karlsson is a free market libertarian and will likely not be happy in any normal democratic state that has any market regulations, least of all Sweden. - JamieBarrows, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@patientzero
Yes you pay it to private corps, but you do get to choose which private corps you want to pay it to. If it was government run and you didn't like what you were paying it to, you wouldn't have a choice. It's all about choice. I choose to spend MY money on the institutions I want to spend it on. Swede's don't get to choose. The government chooses for them. Which is fine as long as the government is making good choices. But sadly the bureaucrats do not always make good choices. Don't know about the gov in Sweden, but most govs in the world and throughout history have a tendency to make bad decisions when it comes to money.
And by the way, I do vote. - AndrewMayne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The writer lives in Sweden.
- nathanfl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7You do know the author of the article lives in Sweden, right?
- ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Out of curiosity, how did you get the impression they don't criticize American economic policy as well?
- sp3tt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@TopherT. Yeah, our great healthcare. The healthcare that KILLS people. Eleven persons waiting for heart surgery died while waiting. That's just this year. Why? Well, possibly because there is a price cap of ZERO. Private hospitals are not allowed to make profits. They are not allowed to pay dividends, they must reinvest everything they earn. Now price caps usually cause shortages. Price caps of zero have to cause shortages. Socialized medicine kills. With socialized medicine, everyone is coerced to pay. And you are not allowed to buy health care from another provider, should you happen to be in a long queue. In Sweden there is a huge opposition to "the rich" being able to pay to get healthcare before others. You know what? Maybe those with heart conditions should be allowed to pay for their health care so they can get it! I don't care if they are rich or not, if they have a disease or condition that could kill them, let them be treated before people with less dangerous problems. Of course, you can't suggest that in Sweden. With socialized medicine, people who could die from their problems are put behind people with colds. (Cf. George Reisman, Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics (Ottowa, Ill: Jameson Books, 1996), pp. 147-50.) Socialism is the worst disaster to ever happen to mankind. There is no single disaster that has killed more people than socialism. And that is in only 100 years. Socialism kills. Socialized health care, also kills.
Education? Don't get me started. It has never been worse. For some schools, the rate of students failing Swedish, English or mathematics is well above 40 %. Public schooling has failed. Why? For the same reason the Soviet Union collapsed: socialism does not work. Ever. Not even in theory. - TopherT, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12@Mrkamikaze don't think I haven't considered it. I'm not ready to give up on this country though. Any nation founded on ideals of federalism, negative freedoms and representative republicanism has to have something worthy in it. So, I continue my search.
- weirdone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8this had to have been a flame.
And please, ignorance isn't relegated only to the USA. This guy could be from another country. - ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"it'd be wise of us to actually spend money on bettering our faltering education system."
I'm reminded of the words of George Santayana: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Plot a few metrics of education quality over time. Overlay that with the per-student spending on education over the same period. You'll end up with an X; quality flat or decreasing concurrent with ever increasing money thrown at the problem. Perhaps, just perhaps, politicians and bureaucrats -- who gain votes from spending other people's money and do not bear the costs of the outcome -- are not the best people to be deciding our children's future. Really, I think I can decide how to spend for my son's education better than Bush's pals. - cybermort, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7no, maps aren't that rare. People that know how to read them... that's another story.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Sounds like CAPITALISM is the correct answer.
A bull + cow = more cows and bulls = profit! - Rickard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7CiXeL: Which is pretty much what Sweden has. A mixed economy.
- pkulak, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14"But because the center-right parties were unwilling to push for more radical free-market reforms, the economic woes, including the inflation-devaluation cycle, continued."
Really now? Wanna back that up with anything at all, or do we just take Mises as gospel? - Poco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Well, not really, this doesn't apply verbatim to the US. Some of those items apply in the US (and more so in Canada) but many of the really bad monetary decisions outlined in that article are mostly avoided by the US (and Canadian) central banks.
- ExCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Religion is belief which relies on the absence of reason. Please feel free to cite some economic principle to which feel meets this criterion. Please note that "belief in the free market" can be just that, or a position arrived at via reasoned analysis, and that reasonable people can disagree on such conclusions.
- Rickard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Poco: Since when is high union membership an inherently bad quality?
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