What is Digg?77 Comments
- adam84a, on 10/12/2007, -3/+47Technically, wouldn't the best debt be a debt someone owes to you?
- flag564, on 10/12/2007, -14/+31France is collapsing under the weight of immigrants and a system that has a huge retirement population that will have to be supported by younger people that have no work ethic because they have been handed everything their entire life.
- xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26I find it funny how people keep on saying they hate France so much.
All on digg.com we've seen that France has:
- better food
- free healthcare
- ***paid-for-studies***
- faster trains
- 5 weeks of paid vacation a year
- slimer women
What does any country calumniatory towards France have over them? - captinherb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16@msecoske
Seems to be working out pretty well for the banks. - sokz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I am an art student - we'll see if I can pay off my loans. Haha.
- jakeabby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I agree 100% with this article. My wife and I were able to come out of school with no student loans, and no credit card debt. I feel like it has made a HUGE difference in our lives, we were able to live very well on next to nothing the first year we were married. Without dept to pay down, we were even able to buy a house. To this day the only debt we have is our house.
So my advice to everyone going into/coming out of college is this: Do everything you can to not take on debt, that new computer/stereo/car looks great now, but when you come out of college and are struggling to find a job you'll wish you didn't have to make those payments every month. - Wabin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Ugh. There is good debt. It is really quite simple. If the the rate you are paying the lender at is less than the rate you can make in an investment, you are better with the debt. And of all loans, student loans are most likely to fit this criterion. At the moment I have loans I could pay off today, but the interest rate is ~4% (less tax deductions, but lets keep it simple). I make more than that in my savings account, a 100% secure investment. It would be silly for me to pay off the debt now.
Now, why am I in the position to be able to pay off my debt whenever I want? Because my income has been greatly increased by the education I received, and I did not go into further debt by running up credit card bills and all of that. This part is common sense. But to tell people not to get an education because they might not be able to pay for it up front is silly, and to tell people that 4 years of interest free loans followed by a low rate is bad debt because all debt is bad is being overly simplistic. Rates matter. - zarex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9This article is completely, entirely, dangerously wrong.
First, student loans are the easiest, cheapest money you'll ever get. You can get loans with rates at around 3.5%, which is basically inflation - even savings accounts pay 5.25% these days - guaranteed. You make more money lending your funds to the bank than it costs you to borrow from the student loan companies. No brainer, folks.
Second, *if you are in a "profitable" degree program* a college education is one of the best investments you'll ever make. Sure, if you choose a major unlikely to make you $ (art history, literature, etc.) be prepared to have a lot of debt for a long time, but if you are interested in the technical fields, management, or similar high-return careers, $100k in loans is a SMALL price to pay.
This article is really bad advice folks. There is nothing wrong with debt, as long as it is properly managed. - xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -10/+17@manifestdata
perhaps you should check your data or step out of your country a few times before making assumptions. It seems as though the last people from your country lucky enough to get in bed with a French woman in the last 50 years happened exactly 50 years ago. Woman in France shave. And furthermore the French are known for using too much perfume.
@flag
"no work ethic because they have been handed everything their entire life" - which country are you talking about exactly? If you look strictly at GDP you'll notice that countries where people don't even take their vacation they have a higher one.
When you actually look at GDP/worked_hours you'll notice something really interesting. France does much better. Work ethic in France as far as I know means that you work hard but you don't get screwed over. I know because I worked there two years. I worked hard but when it was time to go home I left. If the boss wanted me to stick around he better had something to give in exchange for messing with my personal life.
Work to live or live to work? GDP means nothing when you actually analyse the cultural differences properly. - MacsBaine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I am proud of the fact I do not have any debt. The bank is not. Since I do not have a big line of credit open (keep 1 small credit card) they consider me a risk. So what do I have to do? Take a small loan I don't need that will get my credit score up. HUH???
- petroK, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I worked full time, had decent scholarships, and grants, took my first two years in community college, and went to a public school...
still wound up with significant debt... (granted it is about half as high as a lot of other folks'...but still no small potatoes)..Not everyone can play football or basketball. - Klisk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I actually think it's possible to make more money by skipping college, rather than taking out a student loan and going to college. The loan can screw you out of the essential point of college; To get a job and make money. But when paying off the debt lowers your personal income down to minimum wage standards, you have to work overtime and thus have no free time in your life, and you're struggling ANYWAYS don't you feel the point has been defeated? Isn't the point of college to get a job where you WON'T HAVE to bust your ass?
After all, the college system isn't about education. It's about diplomas. Book money. Taxes. College isn't really a system to prepare you for a profession, it's more like a hazing ritual. The only people who REALLY benefit from colleges are doctors, and people who really need to learn something.
Going to college for, say, computer science is absolutely silly, though. It's the type of thing, especially in the coding area, where if you can't teach yourself or find someone to apprentice, then you shouldn't be working in the area. Instead people get a degree, then get a job where they do a half assed job because they really didn't learn anything while cramming for tests and taking bong hits.
Well welcome to America. Where money is more important than knowledge. Can you pay for college? Hell, you're a genius! But a high school dropout with a 190 IQ and no money for college is essentially considered retarded.
My opinion is to boycott colleges, but I know everyone here has been too conditioned by the man. - flag564, on 10/12/2007, -7/+13Student Loans are the biggest con job ever! The fact that they push this stuff on you in HS should be a crime.
Even though you have more options to pay it off, I would never recommend you pay for your whole college education with these things.
If you cant get a grant or a scholarship, then get a job! It may take you longer to graduate, but 10 years down the road when you don't have $ 30,000.00 in student loan debt, you will be further ahead than the guy who loaded up with the loan dollars so he could graduate in 3 or 4 years. "On time" as some bozo has called it.
His salary is going to go to paying Uncle Sam for the next 10 - 30 years while you are putting your salary to your personal use. - gjd131, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@manifestdata
Its not like scholarships are there for the asking, especially in most state schools, like petrok said he went to. I did well in high school, and I was offered scholarships to schools that were still more expensive than going to a state school.
Its bad enough having student loans to pay off for the next 10 years without having a bunch of privileged people saying that they're something wrong with you because you decided your education was worth going into some debt. - Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6First of all, I do agree in some cases that post secondary education is unecessary.
For myself, I wanted to develop software, so I went to univeristy, racked up a debt, and started working in IT 4 years later.
It was a waste of time and money. Most of what I do I learned on my own, how to develop software for windows wasn't taught at University, it was all theory.
Having said that, what I did learn at University was excellent problem solving skills and an ability to learn quickly on my own. I probably would have taken me the same amount of time working on the job to get the same proficency in skills. But then, I would have stared an a much lower pay scale and entry level because my employeers would have taken on the risk of having to train me without any proof of skills.
The problem with working right after high school is that most people tend to get into a rut quickly. They find a job, find some level of comfort in it, it pays well enough, they can make ends meet, the people at work are good, and so they end up staying at their job longer then they should. They might incraease their skills and experience, but have no motivation to find a new job. I do feel that going to college or university will help you enter the job force at above entry level. Working right after high school you WILL have to bust your ass to prove yourself and will have to start at the bottom. University will get you into the workforce above entry level.
The bottom line is, most companies expect a high school and college degree. It might not be right to expect people to have to go to college because they might gain proficiency in working while on the job, but that is the truth about our culture, post secondary education is important for employers. So, you can go on about how unimportant college education is, and for most people that drop out of high school and don't go to college will find themselves the night manager at McDonalds', or you can go to school, get a degree, and get taken seriously. - goodness0001, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10You forgot to mention france has one of the highest unemployment rates of the west.
- gjd131, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@flag
Who said they were going to a $30,000 a year school? petrok said he went to community college and a public school. I went to a state school that cost around $8,000 a year in tuition, but guess what, to some people even the cheapest schools are more than they can pay out of pocket. I know it might be chump change to you, but we all don't have rich parents to pay our way. - cphuntington97, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The problem is that people are deciding to take on this debt, and thus deciding they will pay it off. Paying it off means working a traditional job and living a traditional lifestyle for a long, long time. Is an 18 year old capable of making that decision?
Some older gentlemen I befriend said that if they were to live life over again, they wouldn't want the house or the family. They would want to be motorcycle bums and see the country.
Sure, student loans are cheap money: a financial no-brainer. I'm locked in at 3.25%
But it's also a decision, at 18 years old, to spend the rest of one's life in a cookie cutter mold traditional job. College was never for me; I felt that all the way through, but I kept going because my trusted mentors kept pushing me to go on.
I learned an expensive lesson: you can only trust yourself, and only you know yourself best.
Eighteen is not the age to make a life-long lifestyle decision. Take some time off, get a job, see the world, read a ton of books, and then if you are sure it's for you, get that cheap government subsidized loan.
But take your time, and most importantly, take your own advice. - petroK, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6No...to get a degree I had to either go into debt or take 10 years to get it... don't know who paid for your college, but few full-time jobs that a kid straight out of high school can get will pay for tuition, books, room and board of even the most frugal student... in my experience.
point is... must be nice, but few students can get a degree without going into debt. - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Those who think you can just work your way through school have either not done it, or they are attending a community college. Tuition at my plain-old school was $5,500 per semester, books around $1,000, and shared rent was about $450. That's $13,000 a year before you even figure in utilities, laundry, groceries, gas, or anything else. Adding that stuff in gets you to around $17,000 per year if you live frugally. That means you need to gross $23,000 per year to pay for school. I don't know about where you live, but where I live you can't get a job making $11 so easily. This is double minimum wage.
Watch those who can't stand reality mod me down because they don't like that math doesn't support their preconcieved notion of how school should work. - petroK, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9In Obvious News: Debt Sucks...
Thanks for the tip... I will try to remember that next time I have the choice between starting my adult life with a college education and starting out life debt free...and degree free...hrm
/snark - Klisk, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7What's more important, getting taken seriously, or doing things the way that is right for yourself?
The myth that you'll be stuck working at McDonalds is just, well, that. A myth. People take on that job because they don't know any better, not because you have no other options.
I'm a GED graduate.. I'm also a journalist. I didn't goto college, and it's likely my articles are in publications that you read regularly. I think I busted my aas a ton less than most college students. It's all about how you apply your skills. - flag564, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7"...over the course of my lifetime, I will probably make 10 times the amount of money out of the value of my degree from a specialized program at a top tier public school.
I think the value of an education is more than the degree itself, it is the quality of the education."
I heard that speech many times. And if you're going into something like the medical field or another high demand career, then the risk may pay off.
Most majors in college do not have a similar potential payoff.
Students who go into Art or English, Foreign Language, Business, Liberal Arts, and others get the same talk and fall for it only to find that the world isn't going to pay a person who can write a killer paper on Jane Austen jack squat. These are the ones you find with the debt and spending 30 years to pay it off all while working in a totally different field then what they went to school for. - gjd131, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Wow, I wish I talked to you before I started college! If I only knew it was so easy not to have student loans! Its nice to have that kind of money, but a majority of people just don't have it, and its not because they're buying new computers and cars.
- Klisk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Well.... Yeah. Loans are the best (and most expected) way to build credit. Either that or buy a new car on credit, or something else large... On credit. Or pay off credit cards with OTHER credit cards! Sounds silly, but people really do build credit that way.
Make sure you have the money in advance, though, so you can pay it off immediately. The system right now is kind of broken, so I'd understand if you didn't even want to bother.
An other method is putting all your money in the bank, only buying things you can afford via credit card, and then paying it off monthly and biting the bullet on any interest. Afterall, "you have to build a name for yourself!"
Yeah, it's disgusting. - GoodBrain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I disagree. I know a lot of people who figured out what they really wanted to do by going to college. A friend started in Chemistry and switched to dance, which is what she's still doing more than a decade later.
You don't have to go to college with a career or major in mind, but you should go expecting that college will help you figure out your life path. If you are just there because you think you should be there, and don't feel like it's helping you figure anything out, then I agree, you should go.
I don't even think one's choice of major has to be particularly practical, as long as the student makes sure they gain knowledge outside their major, and go through their major understanding that it's not necessarily something they'll apply one-to-one to their career.
Majoring in English and expecting to make a living as an independant writer or an english professor is only realistic for a fraction of english majors. Similarly, someone doing Archeology isn't likely to be making a living excavating archological sites (though some will). - GoodBrain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Some recent studies suggest that the Ivy's aren't worth all that much in terms of lifetime earnings potential.
The study compared the earnings of students who attended an Ivy, with those who were accepted to an Ivy league school, but instead attended a good but less prestigious school for some reason or another. This allowed the researchers to compare people of very similar potential. Previous studies generally failed to control for differences of inputs when measuring the differences in outcomes between Ivy's and other schools.
The findings were interesting. Most students are likely to see little benefit from going to an Ivy, despite the theoretical advantages of better networking opportunities and a globally known "brand". The only group that really saw a big boost in earnings potential by going to an Ivy were those who came from underprivileged backgrounds. - jakeabby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You're exactly right, I was very fortunate. Sometimes it is unavoidable, and I understand that. In the end, with few exceptions having the degree is more important than not taking on debt.
It's just that in my experience, a lot of the people that I talked to would go out and buy stereos, computers, and spring break trips with their student loan money. What I'm really saying is don't do that. That's why I said "do everything you can not to take on debt", instead of "absolutely do not go into debt". Maybe I should have said, "be very smart about what debt you take on". - jeremyh42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2When I hear people whining about $50,000 worth of student loan debt, it makes me want to laugh. Not only because on average college graduates earn at least $1 million more than non-college grads over their lifetime, but because I'm going to be coming out of medical school with almost $250,000 in debt. Am I glad that I'm digging myself so deeply into debt? No. But I've realized that what I'm doing is making an investment in myself and my own future. If I hadn't accepted this debt I wouldn't have the opportunity to make a doctor's salary in the future. All I can say is that if you're going to take on student loan debt, have a plan as to how you will eventually pay it back (i.e. don't major in Medival Studies).
- petroK, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"stayed at home"
so your parents paid most of your way...
not everyone is that fortunate....
"I did it in 5. I didn't take summers off for party on the beach....I learned to be a bit more smart with my plans. Stayed at home. Bought used books or borrowed. Did not go out and buy a $$$ computer because Best Buy told me to. Had a 300.00 car to get from point A to B. Leaned to love Goodwill. Worked 7 day a week. Went to a school that didn't have me pay a $1,000 premium for each letter in their name. Point is I went in with a plan and a realization that this isn't going to be like college on TV. Can everyone do this? Nope."
that is the exact same reason I have half as much debt as a lot of the people I graduated with...
I get your point, and it is a good one, but not everyone gets the same level of financial support from family etc.
debt sucks, but not completing a college education because you can't afford it at the time is a worse investment by far, IMHO - petroK, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4flag...it is an opportunity cost decision...I could have gone to a regional public university after comcol, but over the course of my lifetime, I will probably make 10 times the amount of money out of the value of my degree from a specialized program at a top tier public school.
I think the value of an education is more than the degree itself, it is the quality of the education. - GoodBrain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I should have completed my last thought before posting...
So, majoring in English or Anthro won't necessarily lead directly into great carerrs, but someone with an English degree or social sciences could have a great career in a variety of areas.
Finally, the fact is, most workers are going to go through a succession of jobs, the next often quite different from the last. Better that they start early by learning how to apply things they learn in one area to a new area. - Canthros, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@jenmo: Maybe there's an art school out there where the program is that good, but the idea that the Ivy League schools are that great is nonsense. The major value in going to a Harvard or a Yale is really the name recognition and networking capabilities. They're good schools, but if all you want is an education, there are better.
- gharding, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Is it just me or did it seem like a bad idea to pay off that one girl's loan with her dad's inheritance. If you can invest it at a higher rate than the loans you're paying off (which are what, like 4.9% now or something? I don't know.. I don't have college loans), and you can get at LEAST 5.35% guaranteed return on the lump of cash you got (1-yr CD or so), you're going to end up making money off waiting rather than paying it off.
- jenmo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Some of the best schools (ivy league, some art schools, etc.) are so good that it would is worth your money to focus entirely on the program. If you work while in a $100,000 program, you won't absorb all of the information that is given to you and the amount of money you would be making would not make a dent in your student loan debt. It is better to pick a lucrative career before you get your education, get as many grants and scholarships as you can, and take out only what you need in student loans.
Also, if you wait ten years, you will be spending more on school since most private schools raise their tuition considerably each year. My school raised it about $1000 a year.
I agree with those that say you don't need an education to make money. Some people don't. It depends what you want to do. For me, it has tripled my salary as a graphic designer and I am in demand. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1College is turned into money racking business. Don’t get me wrong these institutions still provide valuable research and a good learning environment but I don’t like how they are selling themselves. In my opinion it’s ingrained into babyboomers (my parents) minds that college is basically a meal ticket to a secure future. While I feel this is true for the most part it is nowhere near as true as it was a generation ago.
In the last decade or so how many more people are going to college then the generation before us? How many Online and small community colleges have sprung up that sell themselves out as a gateway to a higher paying job ensuring us they provide the same educational value as the larger institutions? Now adays you almost have to have a 4 year degree to get a decent paying job if you don’t already have connections. What’s that saying I keep hearing...A 4 year degree is the new high school diploma? This is not a good sign especially if the new “high school diploma” cost a ***** load and makes people go into debt and often leads you into a career having nothing to do with your major. Just seems like a scam to me. A pyramid scheme on the job front. This is just my opinion though, someone whose been through 2 years of the “high school”.
P.S. I got mad respect for engineers and students of the hard sciences. All these other ***** degree people can suck it, you aint impressing nobody. - gjd131, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@mrunderbridge
I went to Penn State, which I don't think anyone would consider an expensive college. Unfortunetly, I live in a state that doesn't subsidize its schools very well, and if you go to another state, non-residents don't beneifit from that. I did look at every option to get money, but unfortunetly, my family is right in the middle of the middle class, which pretty much screws you when it comes to college. We weren't poor enough to get all the grants and scholarships, but we weren't rich enough for my parents to have a college fund for me, so I decided I'd rather work some part time jobs in college, but mostly focus on getting out in 4 years, and getting a job right away to start paying off the loans. Yeah it sucks, but some people don't have a choice. - petroK, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2yet I make nearly twice as much after graduating than before...
- lukepfister, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Get a job at UPS or FedEx...most locations have a tuition reiumbursement plan where they pay a significant portion of your tuition as long as you get a C or higher in the class.
I'm more than willing to work at a hard job now than to pay off huge loans the rest of my life. - dwhitbeck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The real problem is that a college education is too expensive. The federal government decided to help out by pouring gasoline on the fire. The more need there is (higher costs) the more the government kicks in, so the incentive is to keep charging more. If a college tries to keep costs low, they do not get near the amount of federal dollars that the expensive schools do. Every eligible college should get the same amount per student and let them decide how to distribute it.
- Metasquares, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This should be obvious. When you're in debt, you *owe someone money*. Avoiding this state if at all possible should be everyone's financial strategy.
- koonchu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@xutopia:
Watch out for them french Slimer women! The smell of the ectoplasm alone...! - ethicka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I feel like the reason there are so many articles on digg about how college debt is terrible is because people are trying to excuse their own methods and not because they care. not everyone on this site is computer science oriented. not all people belong at a tech or a state university. absolutely the rates are high and that should be changed, but it is undeniable that a college education is worth the money. it will always pay off financially and intellectually. people shouldn't have to choose schools based on financial access. education is too important. do what you love and you'll always make it back.
- Torx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree, I currently work at fedex and i make sure i get my $3000 every year. Its a pain to get the managers to get it done for ya, but you gotta work for that tuition money.
- robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Come to Alberta!
You can make $11 USD ($12.28 CDN) an hour part time doing many, many things. The roadside travel plaza here pays $12/hr part time for cleaners right now! - xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@goodness Indeed they do have a very high unemployment rate.
But you'll also learn that unemployment is counted differently in numerous countries. For example in France someone without a job is automatically counted, wether or not he is actively looking for a job. I'm unsure about how that works in the USA but if it's like in Canada it isn't the case. If I'm in between two jobs and I don't tell the government I'm actively seeking a job they consider me as someone employed... yup you heard that right.
Furthermore you'll also see that in the USA some "social" programs ask that unemployed go out and do work for their welfare cheques. Companies who use this "forced labor" get tax cuts. Although the benefits of these types of measures are debatable they sure look good on paper.
Either way, if a country has high unemployment rate it still isn't a reason to hate them. - sunnyd71, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've been pretty lucky when it comes to my education. I'm in my second year now and have no debt whatsoever. I guess being in Canada helps as my tuition only comes to about $7000/year. My first year I got a scholarship and my parents paid for the rest out of pocket as they did not have a college fund for me. This year has been great as I have gotten about $8000 more in scholarships then I needed so I have invested it for next year.
What helps me the most is I am still living at home, while it may not be as fun I get to have a car and spend 2 hours driving each day. Fortunately I am within driving distance of about 6 great Universities in Southern Ontario. - hichnii, on 10/28/2007, -0/+1actually for students
http://mypersonalplanning.com/category/debt-consol ... - dissident, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1there are plenty of people out there that go to college because it's "what they are supposed to do" but they don't have a major or don't know what they are going to do. In my opinion, this is a waste of money.
If you are going to go to college you better have a good idea of what you are going to major in, and what job you will ultimately have. College is not for everyone, and not everyone is destined to have the high paying jobs that most of the ambitious brag about.
Also, many of the most successful out there went to state colleges. Don't assume you need "ivy league" to make it. - namepimp, on 05/05/2008, -0/+0A really good one is,
http://www.yuckz.com/studentloan
And so far it's not blocked at school or work =) -
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