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51 Comments
- Hillsfar, on 07/19/2009, -1/+28So the large food processors and agribusinesses are embracing an expensive regulatory option to make things more difficult for small farmers and small organic producers. Yet small farmers and organic producers are just the kind of people we need to be the ones farming in America. Yet it's always those large food processors who end up with the e coli and salmonella infestations. They should be paying the majority of the expenses.
Sure, big corporate farms may be more "efficient" by buying in bulk and growing in bulk - but they also have to support executives making millions and marketing directors and sales managers making hundreds of thousands on the backs of laborers making minimum wage. Lots of independent farmers working their families' fields with a few laborers, doing their own marketing and sales and sometimes even their own deliveries if they doesn't have drivers - or banding together into grower co-ops - that's where it's gonna be better for ordinary people living in local rural communities. - novenator, on 07/19/2009, -1/+22More crap that favors corporate farming over the little guy.
- shig, on 07/19/2009, -0/+18Same thing with NAIS or Premises ID for small livestock producers.
The USDA is about raising the revenues of big business instead of healthy crops and livestock. - EndouOuto, on 07/19/2009, -1/+15Everybody calm down, Obama has former Monsanto lobbyist Michael Taylor working
for him as a senior advisor to the FDA. So change is coming.
"I don't take a dime of their [lobbyist] money, and when I am president, they won't find a job in my White House. -Barack Obama"
/Whatever you say Barry - jakereilly, on 07/19/2009, -0/+12Uh, no.
Buying organic supports a path of agriculture that forgoes harmful pesticides and fertilizers that eventually end up in the water system and causes cancer.
But you can go ahead and keep calling it the "same thing". I can keep calling you an ignorant self-interested *****. - Amazetbm, on 07/19/2009, -0/+8Then shop at your local farmers' market and help the little guy out.
- gn84, on 07/19/2009, -0/+7Small farms and co-ops can be good for people living in urban communities too: http://www.growingpower.org/
- jakereilly, on 07/19/2009, -1/+8Except for that whole nitrogen in the gulf of mexico killing every sea creature it comes into contact with thing.
go read a book. - hotshotveggie, on 07/19/2009, -0/+6lol ssaya, I might have taken your first comment seriously if you hadn't thrown in the "organic just means it has carbon hurrr." Please tell me you've heard of the USDA. Please tell me you can understand the basic concept of a word having multiple definitions. If you like chemistry, how about a mole?
"Dude a mole is a small burrowing mammal not that stupid 6.022x10^23 crap" - DerangedPenguin, on 07/19/2009, -1/+6This is not about overseeing food this is about controlling the distribution of food by making any source of food not under government control illegal.
- cmcagle, on 07/19/2009, -3/+7We don't need federal regulators to maintain the integrity of kosher or halal foods, why do we need them to oversee "organic" food?
- gn84, on 07/19/2009, -0/+4Don't forget the ethanol boondoggle that Obama still openly supports (AFAIK). Corn-based ethanol production uses more oil than refining the oil into gasoline or diesel.
- gn84, on 07/19/2009, -0/+4Chicken and Rabbit manure are natural sources of nitrogen.
High quality growing soil contains much more than the over-simplified N-P-K formulas that synthetic fertilizers contain anyway.
Plus, the synthetic fertilizers and monoculture crops are destroying the topsoil over time. It's an unsustainable farming method. - DerangedPenguin, on 07/19/2009, -3/+7"...is worried and even a little angry about new food safety rules emanating from Washington." The Democrats and Mr. Obama have millions of dollars worth of campaign contributions they have to "pay back" to Big Agriculture. In addition Mr. Obama received campaign assistance from Big Oil. The problem is how to insure that Big Oil stays in business, after all they are too big to fail, yet also controlling the kinds of cars the masses drive. The solution is really quite simple outlaw organic farming techniques thus making sure that petrochemical based fertilizers and pesticides have no competition. This also has the advantage to the Obama Administration of bring to bear one more way to control the people by controlling the distribution of food.
- inactive, on 07/19/2009, -1/+4uh the nitrogen comes from the fertilizer, not anything sprayed on the plants. go read a book.
- nihilville, on 07/19/2009, -1/+4I'm all for regulation of corporations and factory farms, because history has shown that they will behave badly without rules in place to force them into societally beneficial behavior. Small businesses and family farms generally do not (and furthermore do not have the resources to) engage in the same kind of malfeasant shenanigans as corporations and thus needn't be subjected to the same level of regulations. They certainly should not be paying the same amount for inspections as their larger corporate siblings from where most of the transgressions emerge.
- gn84, on 07/19/2009, -0/+3My understanding is that the specifics of the legislation are very vague, which leaves most of the decisions up to the appointed posts in the USDA (food czar, so to speak), who is likely to be a former agribusiness executive, whether s/he's appointed by a Republican or Democrat.
So, in effect, Monsanto, ConAgra, and ADM will be selecting and enforcing the regulations. Bye-bye small farmers. - DerangedPenguin, on 07/20/2009, -0/+3Yes very true thanks to Mr Bush and his ethanol initiatives our cars get worse gas mileage and cost more to fuel per gallon, I am not bashing just the Democrats but also the Republicans, basically Professional Politicians who have made it their life's work to control our lives.
- jk33l, on 07/19/2009, -2/+5While the story says that a lot of organic, small, and medium size farmers worry, there was a story on NPR discussing this where they talked about a lot of misinformation going out around this legislation. Supposedly, organic farmers were already under stricter rules than big agri-business and they aren't supposed to see much of a change. They also stated that the $500 fee doesn't apply to most of those same farmers. Again, we'll see how all this really goes down.
- PeppermintPig, on 07/20/2009, -0/+3Thank you for posting great comments to this thread with actual solutions. I see a lot of complaining about this by certain individuals who would otherwise be full hard-on for government 'solutions' in other areas. The apathy and hypocrisy is sickening.
- jakereilly, on 07/20/2009, -0/+2@ssaya, nitrogen fertilizer IS sprayed on the plants. How else do you think they get it in the soil? Go dump it in with shovels? Go read a book.
@gn84, exactly.
@Brotio, never saw that before, interesting. - nihilville, on 07/19/2009, -2/+4You're right, Chairboy, factory farms and organic farms are exactly the same in every way and it's a crime against freedom and sanity to treat them any differently. What on earth was I thinking? Also, there is no middle ground between rampant Anarchist Capitalism and Orwellian Communism.
/s - PeppermintPig, on 07/19/2009, -4/+6But without these regulations our food is unsafe. UNSAFE!!!!!!
- Brotoi, on 07/20/2009, -1/+3@PeppermintPig
"I see a lot of complaining about this by certain individuals who would otherwise be full hard-on for government 'solutions' in other areas."
Not me. Dyed in the wool libertarian here. I favor massive reductions in both regulation and regulatory agencies across the board. I don't need the government telling me what kind of toilet to install, what kind of light bulbs to use, and what kind of car drive. I especially don't need them telling where to buy my food or how to raise it on my own! - Brotoi, on 07/20/2009, -0/+2"there was a story on NPR discussing this where they talked about a lot of misinformation going out around this legislation"
Um... Did you notice that part in the credits where Monsanto "contributed generously" to making that program possible?
These bills first showed up back in March. If passed, small-scale farming and roadside produce stands will be a thing of the past.
http://digg.com/political_opinion/Have_we_been_lie ...
http://digg.com/environment/HR_875_Food_Safety_Mod ... - gn84, on 07/21/2009, -0/+2@Brotoi
You reminded me of the Monsanto spot I heard on NPR recently. Apparently my mouth was hanging open so long that I forgot all about it: http://www.grist.org/article/national-public-propa ...
See NPR pathetically attempt to defend themselves: http://www.npr.org/ombudsman/2009/06/npr_is_not_ru ... - Brotoi, on 07/20/2009, -0/+2@jakereilly
This might interest you: http://digg.com/environment/Gulf_Waters_Imperil_Tr ... - bearsandbulls, on 07/20/2009, -0/+1Right on but that is pretty limiting for small farms who also need a wider distribution network.
- TheMachine1, on 07/19/2009, -1/+2There is no natural source of nitrogen that could permit organic farming to replace all crop production. So the only way you are going to reduce excess nitrogen fertilizer runoff significantly is by reducing crop production. Since most is wasted on animal products production the way to do that is to eat a mostly vegetarian diet.
Mostly vegetarian diet > organic farming. - PeppermintPig, on 07/20/2009, -2/+3Don't worry Chairboy, there's no way more regulation could ever possibly cause harm. It's there to do good, right?? lol
homerclesd337 tries to spin this into a right/left argument. Way to derail the discussion, and you look like a hypocrite while doing so, and nihilville blindly accepted the idea that he doesn't have any ethical accountability to the things he supports.
Yes, compared to neoconservative *****, you may think you look smart, but that's a really low bar you're setting for yourselves. - ZenMojo, on 07/19/2009, -1/+2It's not the regulatory option that is the problem. We're talking a $500 registration fee per facility, one you are exempt from if you sell directly to consumers (i.e., Farmer's Market). However, some farmers (which has always been a weak conceit..."some" means nothing in real terms) are worried that agribusiness and food processors are embracing it so quickly.
There is the possibility of this being a problem from an administration side, but such administration is fairly unavoidable no matter which way you go about it when you consider how the FDA acted under the previous administration. - Brotoi, on 07/20/2009, -0/+1"As usual plenty of kneejerk ARR EVIL CORPORATIONS comments from people who don't understand the whole story."
The corporate farms ARE the whole story. It is not the rapidly-vanishing, small-scale family farms that are pumping these chemicals into the biosphere. They cannot afford to use them. It is the large-scale corporate farms and high-density "livestock factories", most of which are managed by corporations based outside the United States, that receive the bulk of those subsidies while producing tasteless, low-nutrient food products sold in places like Wal-Mart. - govtdoesnotwork, on 07/20/2009, -1/+2gn84 has it TOTALLY right. The family farm died out because of the rules/regulations which favored factory farms. It's hard to believe MORE regulation will improve on that sad and sorry record. Farmers need to be left alone as long as they're not doing bad stuff. The ones that do bad stuff tend to own politicians, though...
- allisonV12, on 07/20/2009, -1/+2always wondered how Trader Joe's or Whole Foods can stock their shelves like clock work,no interruptions waiting for fickle organic produce to arrive....maybe its not so organic after all
- gn84, on 07/21/2009, -0/+1@nihilville
I'm curious. What do you think the USDA does?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_o ...
The history of agricultural regulations in this country reads like a laundry list of subsidies, which is why I link them to regulations. Further, the government regulations that you argue should be strengthened have historically always favored the big producers. Why? Because the big producers are the ones with enough influence in Washington to affect policy.
...
"Small businesses and family farms generally do not (and furthermore do not have the resources to) engage in the same kind of malfeasant shenanigans as corporations and thus needn't be subjected to the same level of regulations."
Maybe you should tell this to the regulators. Small farmers seem none-too-pleased with the NAIS (http://nonais.org). Read what family farmer Joel Salatin has to say about farm regulations: (http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/index.php/sustain ...
Did I provide enough of a substantive challenge for you? Your initial and subsequent arguments contained nothing but vague platitudes glorifying the ability of state bureaucrats to tell us how we should farm and enforcing those rules with the strong arm of the law.
BTW, you never did respond to my point about government encouragement of synthetic fertilizers. - nihilville, on 07/20/2009, -0/+1@PeppermintPig
I did counter his ridiculous extremism with a reminder that there are shades of gray between the Anarchy he advocates and the fear mongering brush he paints all alternatives with. Nobody has even challenged my initial position with anything even vaguely substantive, so I'm kind of curious what point your believe I have to counter. - gn84, on 07/19/2009, -2/+2The corporations and factory farms largely exist BECAUSE of government regulation.
Tariffs, farm subsidies, safety regulations, etc. all favor big business. Synthetic fertilizers largely came into vogue following the world wars when the government had stockpiles of chemical weapons that could be converted into fertilizers.
I'd much rather have no government rules at all, than government rules that favor the factory farms. - whoatemytuna, on 07/20/2009, -1/+1Organic actually requires more pesticides because they have to use less effective organic pesticides and fertilizers.
- mdmcgee, on 07/19/2009, -1/+1Well to be fair a mole is a small burrowing mammal whereas "mol" is an abreviation for Avogadro's number = 6.022x10^23.
- nihilville, on 07/20/2009, -1/+1@gn84
I think every progressive would agree that subsidies are a bad thing, but to try to describe subsidies as "regulations" is disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst. Though coming from one who flat out advocates Anarchy as a political solution, I'm leaning towards the ignorant interpretation.
@PeppermintPig
There was no discussion, Chairboy resorted to Orwellian imagery at the very hint of the notion that there was any difference between Mom & Pop organics and factory farms. It's indicative of a puerile mind ironed out of all wrinkles by a failed political ideology that resorts to failed talking points and worn cliches they think will substitute for substantive thought and real debate. I can tell you thought Chairboy had a real winning argument there, so I'll understand if any hint of nuance is lost on you as well. - PeppermintPig, on 07/20/2009, -1/+1@nihilville
I guess you've never read a single regulatory law in your life then, because they CAN contain subsidization language. Your ad hominem attack does not reinforce the point you're trying to make.
"It's indicative of a puerile mind ironed out of all wrinkles by a failed political ideology that resorts to failed talking points and worn cliches they think will substitute for substantive thought and real debate."
Whether or not his comments are talking points, it should be easy for you to counter and make a case for your position. - Chairboy, on 07/19/2009, -4/+4Don't Digg folks usually LIKE regulation?
- whoatemytuna, on 07/20/2009, -2/+1Most organics are produced by large corporations, not small local farmers. It actually costs "small farmers" much more to produce organic foods because they cannot use more resistant strains of crops and have to resort to less effective organic pesticides.
- homercles337, on 07/19/2009, -3/+2Nihil, logic escapes the right. They only understand the black and white--either you are always for/against something or you never are.
- nihilville, on 07/19/2009, -3/+1Thanks, Homer... I suppose I tend to get frustrated over these situations when I should really know better by now. ;)
- Chairboy, on 07/19/2009, -4/+2So all farms are equal, but some farms are more equal than others.
- homercles337, on 07/19/2009, -4/+1You answered your own question. One reason is because many are "organic" some are not. Are you a product of the KY edumacational system?
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