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10 Things You Might Not Know About Your Credit Card
consumerist.com — 4) Merchants Cannot Require A Minimum Transaction Amount -- It's a violation of the credit card company's merchant agreement to refuse a transaction because it is below the "minumum."
PlayingGangsta- 1629 diggs
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- gavin422, on 07/10/2008, -3/+44These are a lot of interesting points. Especially the liability ones.
I'm not sure I agree with the no-minimum rule, though. Having worked in retail, I know how much a credit card fee can skim off your profits, especially with very small transactions. Even though stores aren't allowed to have a minimum, I respect it anyway.- fornnwet, on 07/10/2008, -2/+34Agreed - to an extent. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm a consumer with the right to say "no, your minimum charge rule is fraudulent", and it's up to me to decide if I want to exercise that right. Now that I feel empowered, I'm going to base it on how I'm being treated by the establishment I'm at.
- gavin422, on 07/10/2008, -2/+6But that's just applying a moral standard when you feel like it. If an establishment treated me poorly, I might take my business elsewhere, but I wouldn't compromise my personal stance.
- PlayingGangsta, on 07/10/2008, -2/+7I see it as picking your battles.
- CosmicJustice, on 07/11/2008, -0/+5Good for you! You go exercise your "right" to borrow four bucks for a happy meal and finance it at 22%. That will show those fat cat corporations who's in charge here.
- Dgen_X, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3But it's also up to that establishment to decide whether or not to serve you, yeah...they may lose your business for life just to avoid a small credit card fee...but depending on who is at the counter it could happen.
- devin_mm, on 07/11/2008, -1/+8@CosmicJustice
Credit cards have 22% interest rates?!? I had no clue I just pay mine off every month and they keep saying I have no interest, maybe my credit card company are idiots and don't know about this.
Seriously though I use my credit card for everything, I love my reward points, you have no transaction fees, and it's much safer than say if someone stole your debt pin. There is no downside to using your credit card. - firestorm, on 07/11/2008, -1/+1@devinmm:
While I love my credit card's reward points and no transaction fees, it's not safer than debit.
If I leave my wallet somewhere/it gets stolen, the first thing I'm doing is cancelling my credit cards. I'm not worried about my debit card at all since it is protected by the pin number...
Although, there is one case where credit cards are safer - there are people that keep their pin number on a little piece of paper in their wallet. In that case, you have very little recourse to get your money back. - TheMidnight, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2@ firestorm
Most debit cards can be run as credit. In fact, some banks (like mine) will charge you for running it as debit instead of credit, since with debit, the bank gets charged by Visa, and with credit, it's the merchant.
So yes, you should worry about debit cards too, especially since they don't have the fraud protections of credit cards. - Slovenian6474, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4@firestormfirestorm
Debit cards aren't protected by a pin number at most stores or online. They could be ran as credit and signature forged. Only place I've seen that requires to use the PIN is an ATM machine. - theJeebus, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1@firestorm
So when you eat at a restaurant and pay with your debit card, do the waiter bring you something to enter your pin? Or do you just sign a piece of paper? Aha! - devin_mm, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I think there is a bit of a mis-communication going on in this thread, a Debt card for me is just basically an ATM card it is only tied to your bank, and has no affiliation with visa/mc (AFAIK we have no 'visa cheque cards' in Canada) where as a credit card has no ties with your chequing/savings accounts.
@firestorm
While I understand your point about the debt card being protected by a PIN I've seen situations where your PIN is stolen and card is cloned and unless you get on it quick you could be screwed. Whereas with a credit card there usually is zero-liability with fraudulent transactions you could be in for a long battle if someone locally cleans out you bank accounts.
- kenplaysviola, on 07/10/2008, -1/+17There are a lot of restaurants in my area that say "$10 minimum charge for credit card use!" It's quite annoying!
- Rikkochet, on 07/11/2008, -5/+1Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe per-transaction charges only apply to debit transactions. Credit card processors charge a fixed % off each transaction (I think it's 1.75% for everyone except Amex who are assholes and take like 3%) and of course a monthly/annual fee to be hooked up to the system. There are no one-off fees.
That's the way I understood it when I worked in retail, anyways. It's just a matter of the staff not wanting to stand around waiting for a transaction slip to print for a small cheque.- alpha94, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4No, they also have a monthly fee as well as a charge per transaction. There's also many customized plans based on the business you are in, how many transactions you perform and form how many locations.
- DarkChapinko, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1It is not a set % per card necessarily. If you have what is called "Pass Through" pricing, then yes, the processor takes a set percentage and per transaction fee above Interchange (what the banks charge, or "card issuer") and Assessments (what Visa/MasterCard charge). Also Processors can change this percent based on the merchant's contract.
There are also "Tiered" methods, where a merchant gets different buckets. Different card types fall into different buckets. Normal every day consumer cards cost less, while business and rewards cards cost more, falling in different buckets.
- po43292, on 07/11/2008, -5/+3Any nightclub or restaurant employees will appreciate this: I used to work in a fast-paced club as a bartender. People would always come to the bar at the busiest time near the end of the night and order a bottled water. $4. They show you a credit card. Ahh *****.
The credit card transaction was a pain in the ass. You had to write their driver license # on a tab sheet, ring in the water on the tab sheet, swipe the card, print out a credit card slip, have them sign both the tab sheet and credit card slip, there's a tip line which would always be $0 or -----. Meanwhile people are showing cash for real drinks that you're gonna make tip on, so they get first priority. Water people are bottom of queue or ignored half the time, hate to say it.
I kept bugging our mgr. for a minimum CC amount but they always told us it was against the bank rules. Such a pain.
Or the water people could've just given me a $5 and said keep the change. Easier for all of us.- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6Um...your not allowed to write down their driver's license # for acceptance by Visa's rules anyways.
- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2should have told them they have to start a tab and hold their card until they are ready to check out and leave.
- Topkill, on 07/11/2008, -1/+4Why not just give them a free glass of water? Besides the fact that no one in their right mind would pay $4 for a bottle of water, they were probably a designated driver anyways.
- audioscience, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2That's what you get for charging for water anyways.
And by the way, serving a bottle of water does not earn you a tip...
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -1/+8I didn't just work in retail. I owned a business about 10 years ago and had my own merchant account.
The transaction fees vary, depending on the credit rating of the business or the business owners, the volume of sales, etc. I paid about 2.75%, some were even paying 3.5%. A high volume business might only pay .75%.
BUT, you also pay a network fee, to use the processing network to charge the card. Back in 1998, I paid 25 cents to connect, and 10 cents per transaction. Since I was running an online CD store, I could run batches, so I would only get charged the 25 cent connection fee once and could charge as many cards during that connection. But at places like Subway where they connect and process one card at a time, they are paying (at least in 1998 fees) 35 cents per card, on top of whatever percentage they pay per transaction.
Rikkochet, I don't think it is just a matter of the staff not wanting to stand around waiting for a trans slip for a small cheque. Employees don't care what it costs. They get paid by the hour.
The business owner is the one who wants to keep his margins as low as possible, and processing a $1.00 charge for a product that cost him 60 cents becomes unprofitable, considering he's losing 35 cents plus .75 - 3% of the $1.00.
It isn't very profitable to sell an item that costs 60 cents, that sells for $1.00, if you lose up to 38 cents just to accept payment. - mighty914, on 07/11/2008, -1/+1Having worked in an industry that saw literally hundreds of purchases a night (a movie theatre box office), credit cards were often appreciated as they greatly reduce the risk of transaction errors. Even the most careful of cashiers would usually end up a few dollars off at the end of the night...and as you'd expect, it was usually under. Credit cards reduce this tremendously.
Having said that...yes, it's worth picking battles. No need to start WW3 over a $5 purchase when you have the cash on you.
- fornnwet, on 07/10/2008, -2/+34Agreed - to an extent. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm a consumer with the right to say "no, your minimum charge rule is fraudulent", and it's up to me to decide if I want to exercise that right. Now that I feel empowered, I'm going to base it on how I'm being treated by the establishment I'm at.
- symbolicsorcery, on 07/10/2008, -2/+58Every credit card user would be wise to study up on these issues. There are many privacy rights that users don't know about that they end up giving up. Here's a summary of the list:
1. Unsigned Cards Are Not Valid And Merchants Can And Will Refuse Them.
2. The Maximum Liability For Unauthorized Use Of A Credit Card* Is $50 According To Federal Law.
3. Merchants Cannot Require You To Present ID, Unless Your Card Is Unsigned.
4. Merchants Cannot Require A Minimum Transaction Amount.
5. Merchants Cannot Charge A Surcharge For Using A Credit Card, However, They Can Offer A "Cash Discount".
6. Many Credit Cards Have Programs That Will Automatically Double The Manufacturer's Warranty And Other Excellent Benefits.
7. Merchants Are Not Allowed To Make You Give Up Your Right To A Chargeback.
8. Merchants Are Not Allowed To Place A Hold For The Estimated Tip.
9. If Merchants Suspect You Of Fraud They Are Supposed To Call With A "Code 10".
10. If Merchants Break These Rules, You Can Report Them To The Credit Card Company.
If anyone knows what a "chargeback" is, please respond.- gavin422, on 07/10/2008, -0/+22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback
Basically, it's the credit card cancelling a transaction and taking the money back from the merchant.- akula89, on 07/11/2008, -0/+9also, if you try to do too many chargebacks (normally more than 1 per year) you are likely to be flagged by your credit card issuer as it could appear that you are trying to defraud merchants by initiating unwarranted chargebacks.
- Skootles, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1@ akula89
Last year when I ordered train tickets to Montreal, my credit card ended up being charged 4 times and debited (charged back?) 4 times within a week, and neither VIA or VISA ever called me about it. I had to call up VIA and tell them that they actually paid me $4 for me and 2 friends to go to Montreal. They apologized for the random charges / debits and said they wouldn't be charging me anymore. - Skootles, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3*facepalm* confused chargeback with debit. It's early..
- akula89, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Skootles: that would likely count as a single chargeback because its from the same company (VIA) for the same purchase
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2akula, that isn't a chargeback.
This was done by the merchant (the train ticket issuer), who accidentally charged your card, and then credited back the transaction. They obviously screwed up a second time by crediting all of the charges, instead of just the last three.
That's why Visa didn't care, they didn't lose any money, the train company did, and they even still made money on processing each charge and credit.
- pin0chet, on 07/11/2008, -0/+18I've used my unsigned card over 300 times in 9 months and not ONCE has a merchant said anything. I think I've been ID'd maybe twice.
- RRJackson, on 07/11/2008, -1/+5And in only 300 months it will be all paid off!
- inhaler, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3You should demand they ID you. I do it every time I get a card with "See ID" or blank at my job. After my parents got hit with identity theft I realize it can happen to anyone.
- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -2/+6@inhaler: you are only wasting your own time. the douchebag minimum wager that didn't check your id until you forced him / her wouldn't even bother to check the next person in line even if they used your card.
- weizilla, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I sign the back of my card but only scribble a few lines and circles on the receipt they make you sign. No one ever questions it.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Cashiers dont check it. I almost never did. I once saw a SEE ID cause it stood out and did that instead before I knew that was illegal. Either way, sign your card dude. If someone steals your card, they can just sign your name and then if a cashier wants to verify their signature they can show them its the same name.
- orlyfactor, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3I sign my receipts with a picture of a whale and the word "Shamu" next to it. Not once has anyone said anything to me about it.
- andreo, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I think that's due more to people not paying attention then anything else. I once signed a receipt "batman" when the cashier was busy talking with another cashier during the entire checkout process.
- o0joshua0o, on 07/11/2008, -1/+5So you have two options:
1. Sign your card - this way, the person who stole your card won't have to show ID when using it illegally.
2. Don't sign the card - this way, the person who stole your card can sign it, and then they won't have to show ID when using it illegally
- jakatak, on 07/11/2008, -8/+2A charge back is a fee the credit card charges the Merchant for having to return money to the customer. It's basically a BS penalty to the Merchant. It's usually about $15 - $20. I have had a credit card machine for my business for about 3 months and no chargebacks yet.
- pittpat, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2A charge back is not a "fee the credit card charges the merchant" It is when a customer disputes the transaction and the credit card company will AUTOMATICALLY take the money back from the merchant and the burden of proof is on the merchant to get that money back. I have to deal with these every now and then with my business.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3A Chargeback is a disputed charge. A merchant receives a fax from his processing bank, requesting support to justify the charge.
If you cannot justify the charge, the bank takes the sale amount plus a penalty fee (around $25) from your bank account of record.
And the deck is stacked against the merchant.
Basically, Visa never loses money, the merchants lose the money.- snoozevmw, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Avoiding a charge back is not rocket science. I have seen a couple AMEX and VISA...both were settled with a signed customer delivery receipt; a couple minutes of paper work for the merchant and a ding on the customer who thinks it a more convenient way to do returns.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4snoozevmw,
That is an illegitimate chargeback. Those are usually, but not always, easy to resolve.
However, it isn't always that easy.
Most "card not present" charges are easy pickings for a chargeback. That doesn't even mean that you were not standing there with your card in hand in front of the merchant, it might only mean that your card could not be read by a magnetic reader, and they didn't take an impression of your card.
I did totally online sales, but there were protocols. We needed to verify the zip code of the card holder's billing address, and eventually our provider got sophisticated and we asked for the CVVS number (the last 3 digits on the back of the card).
But, it still was hard to defend a charge back. It is "your word against the card holder", plus, to make matters worse, the processing bank stands to gain a $25 penalty from you, so they aren't as interested in hearing your case as they are in just charging it back and making a nice profit.
Yes, it is not rocket science. It's banker's rules. - Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Phil, you could always just dispute the chargeback and threaten the card company. Since you have to pay for the right to charge to visa and MC, they make money from you. If the purchase was legit and you can prove it, just threaten to drop them as a payment option. I doubt they won't give your case a good lookover then.
- dood, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2PhilLesh69 is right. It's really hard to get a bank to accept your defense on card not present charges. The worst part about the whole thing is that the bank doesn't always issue new cards when a user calls in claiming their card was fraudulently used. So the customer can (and does) charge all sorts of things, call in and chargeback, and then repeat the cycle at other merchants without delay.
Thankfully, at least in our industry, there are few billing processors. They can blacklist the cards (across that processor) when customers do this, reducing some of the risk. - jasonk823, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Pittance, there are two scenarios:
1) You are a small business. VISA doesn't care if they lose you.
2) You are a big business. VISA knows you can't drop them.
In both cases VISA has the upper hand - between them, MC, and AMEX they have the market cornered. Brick-and-mortar stores can get by with only accepting one of the cards (usually AMEX - Nieman Marcus, Costco, etc). But they also have the option of taking cash and debit. If you do any kind of web sales you're screwed. And if you're web only... you'd better hope you don't get on VISA's or MC's bad side.
The threat "I'll drop you as a processor! I'll take Diner's Club and Discover instead!" will only be met with laughter.
- brundlefly76, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Credit cards also charge a transaction fee and a percentage fee per transaction, the amount of both is dependent on many factors, including which bank you use, your relationship with the bank, the age of your merchant account, your method of taking credit cards (internet = high fee), and the rate of chargeback fees.
Also when the consumer calls for a chargeback the credit card customer support will often ask them if they tried to resolve the issue with the merchant directly, and sometimes even initiate a 3-way conference call with the merchant to discuss it on the spot.
This allows the merchant to settle the charge themselves and avoid a fee, but more often than not, scares away people who try to scam merchants with chargebacks.
- gavin422, on 07/10/2008, -0/+22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback
- mofw, on 07/10/2008, -2/+16Being asked for ID when using my credit card has always bothered me. Nice to know I needn't be bothered by that.
- Rikkochet, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6I'd love to know what states that law applies in.
In Canada it appears that the companies mandate ID checking (so I was told at a jewellery store today, anyways) - especially high risk businesses like electronics and jewellery. I was told Mastercard requires ID for every transaction and Visa requires it for any over $500.
Not that it seems to help any. My card is routinely declined and I get a call from the fraud dept because a suspicious purchase was being made.... Every time I make the same suspicious purchase amount (>$100) at the same suspicious computer store. Drives me nuts.- ketemphor, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1It's not a law. It has to do with the agreement the merchant signed on to when they wanted to accept credit card purchases.
That being said, there's also no law that says they can't ID you or refuse your credit card for not showing your ID. Your sole recourse in such a case is to report them to the credit card company as being in violation of their agreement. - innovati, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I work at Aldo shoes here in canada, most transactions are between 50 and 200 $ (nothing major like jewelry) and we don't require ID unless we have reason to believe the card is not being used by the actual cardholder.
I would also like to point out our credit card system is a separate system from our credit card, and we never require ID for a bank card (which is the majority of our transactions)
- ketemphor, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1It's not a law. It has to do with the agreement the merchant signed on to when they wanted to accept credit card purchases.
- Speed, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Being asked for picture identification to prevent fraud (it's impossible for the clerk to accurately compare signatures) bothers you?
Seriously, bud, as a cashier, I can tell you that (especially when you're working a 9 hour shift and it's busy) with most of the credit cards out there: it's impossible to tell if signatures match or not.
Before you talk about ID theft from looking at your DL: there isn't a single cashier out there who cares that you're 40 or that you live in Edmonton. (for example) - Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -5/+2Doesnt matter if its illegal. They arent allowed. If its a place you dont really like, just threaten to walk out without paying or to report them to visa. I have a sushi place I am going to report next time I go for asking for 8$ minimum. Last time I went for half-priced sushi (good stuff, business lunch incentive) and it came to 6-some. I had to have them increase the tip until it hit 8$.
- Rizmaster, on 07/11/2008, -3/+3How would you need in INCREASE the tip? It didn't come up to 8 dollars?
What kind of ***** ***** doesn't leave at least 2 bucks for a waitress?
What a *****. - Piggycow, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6They have minimums because it costs the place extra $$ to process a credit card. Merchants at flea markets and the sort always do it because otherwise it woudl cut into their profits. I am assuming the sushi place is a small family business so do you really need to be an ***** about it?
- Speed, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1You can't legally walk out without paying, you can just refuse to use Visa. Walking out without paying is still theft.
- Rizmaster, on 07/11/2008, -3/+3How would you need in INCREASE the tip? It didn't come up to 8 dollars?
- andreo, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Hmm, and here I am whipping out my ID with any purchase over 50 bucks. The cashier will barely take a glance at the ID but I've been ID'ed so many times before I figured I would just skip the anguish of being asked.
- BOFH2, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2They can always ask you to leave without your merchandise also.
- Archon810, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Yeah, good luck enforcing that rule. Illegal or not, but so many cashiers think that's what they're supposed to do, you're going to create a load of problems for yourself that way.
- Rikkochet, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6I'd love to know what states that law applies in.
- fornnwet, on 07/10/2008, -3/+25Bars are the worst when it comes to "forcing" a minimum amount on you. Next time I go out, I'm bringing a copy of the VISA merchant agreement with me. I'm sick of having to buy 4 drinks to use my card when all I want is one beer!
- akula89, on 07/11/2008, -2/+5I think the loophole here may be they force you to buy 4 drinks regardless of payment method, therefore avoiding breaking the merchant agreement?
- phike, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1No bar forces a 4 beer minimum if you're paying cash.
- petebert, on 07/11/2008, -1/+23so, you'll be standing at the counter drunk waving a credit card agreement around? you really think that will get you anywhere?
- Sparky9292, on 07/11/2008, -0/+19Don't try to waive your agreement. Simply call the number on the back of your credit card and report it. Visa issuers are really good at being total d*cks towards merchants that don't let customers use their credit cards.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3pete, who is drunk after 1 beer? if he was paying that little to be able to dispute it, he wouldnt be drunk.
- cadmiumpaint, on 07/11/2008, -4/+20you're gonna be THAT guy.
- spvo, on 07/11/2008, -0/+23Yeah! It hardly seems like you can go out any more without people waving credit card merchant agreements in your face.
- rubaaan, on 07/11/2008, -0/+5take cash instead. DUH.
- WELLDOITLIVE, on 07/11/2008, -0/+7Don't pay with a ***** credit card unless you plan on opening a tab. Which is usually not a good idea anyways.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Why not exactly?
- naufragous, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2From what I understand sometimes bartenders will put drinks for their friends on various opened tabs. The idea being that by the end of the night the person won't remember if they had 4 beers and 2 shots or 6 beers and 3 shots. Never has happened to me personally but you hear stories about it happening every now and again.
- Speed, on 07/11/2008, -1/+8Great idea, act belligerent to a bartender. That won't get you kicked out.
/s
Also, unless you start a tab, why the hell would you pay with a CC? Would it really kill you to bring a fiver (or even a bunch of ones or quarters) if you're only going to buy one beer?- spectre_25gt, on 07/11/2008, -4/+4For those of us that don't cary cash on a regular basis, it can be a complete pain in the ass. You have to take time to find an ATM, which probably will charge you an extra fee, and withdraw more money than you wanted to take out of your bank account.
- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -5/+1@ spectre_25gt: don't be a douche, buy your friends a round or open a tab. *****. probably 25 years older than the rest of the crowd and don't have friends.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Yes. I dont carry cash. Why carry a form of money that can be lost or stolen? I only carry plastic and I dont bother with places that only deal with cash. Cant trace cash. I cant use cash to track my spending online as easily. Some of us are responsible spenders.
- zomglolcats, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3"I can't use cash to track my spending online as easily"
You can use cash online? Wow, I need to buy a scanner. - Speed, on 07/11/2008, -1/+1The only time I carry cash is when I go to the bar. It's not that hard to find an ATM for your bank on the way (I can name two CIBC machines and a President's Choice machine on the way to any bars I go to)
- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2@Pittance
I'm all for responsible spending, but credit cards are not the way to do it. They are what started irresponsible spending in the first place.
- spudhead, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Why not just buy your buddy a beer and tip the server instead?
If you don't want to carry cash that's fine, but businesses shouldn't have to eat the cost of the transaction simply for your convenience.
It might be better for their business in the long run to eat that cost, but they're not obligated.
Part of being prepared is carrying cash - like having a spare tire in your trunk. - esfisher, on 07/16/2008, -0/+1Dude, I'm totally going to start selling "pocket" copies of the Visa merchant agreement.
- akula89, on 07/11/2008, -2/+5I think the loophole here may be they force you to buy 4 drinks regardless of payment method, therefore avoiding breaking the merchant agreement?
- Phlogiston, on 07/10/2008, -5/+40This article is empowering customers and that is a beautiful thing. Next time I get a minimum charge, I may ask them about this. Yeah, that may make me the customer that is the dick, but I am not afraid of that.
- therightside, on 07/11/2008, -3/+1For gods sakes dont be inconvienced, it is all about you after all.
- Blademan88, on 07/11/2008, -3/+2wow, youre so badass!!!! youre not afraid to be a giant dick!!!
- spudhead, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2The coffee houses I've visited have solved this problem for you.
They've stopped taking credit cards and put a cash machine near the door that charges anywhere from $1.50 to $3.00 for a withdrawal.- esfisher, on 07/16/2008, -0/+1This is America, man, we don't understand correlation.
- csresale, on 07/10/2008, -2/+5Great article coming from an industry expert.
- kdmundrick, on 07/10/2008, -1/+23I can imagine a confrontation arising from scolding a merchant or trying to inform him/her of a Visa policy, especially the minimum charge rule. Many small shops in the city like to impose these, and I think consumers may be intimidated to confront the owners.
- Khast, on 07/11/2008, -0/+12"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason" is usually posted in stores. Unfortunately, if you try to complain about policies...they will most likely point to their sign, and bid you good day.
- wattznext, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Just because they say it, doesn't make it true.
If they refuse to serve someone because they are black, or a woman, etc, they can get hauled to court, fined, put out of business.
Of course I'm extrapolating this way beyond what would happen in a reasonable situation, but my point is, just because a business puts up a sign, it doesn't mean the sign is correct (for example "not responsible for lost or stolen property" is usually totally false, they ARE responsible. Same goes for "you break it, you buy it", FYI). - PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2wattznext, not responsible for lost or stolen property is not false. In fact, there doesn't even need to be a sign.
Granted, if you are a good negotiator and not angry or accusatory and speak nicely to the manager of a store where you've lost something, sometimes they will be gracious in return and offer you a store credit or something. But if you try to take them to court over something you lost in their store, they'll beat you every time.
- wattznext, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Just because they say it, doesn't make it true.
- Rikkochet, on 07/11/2008, -0/+16You could just as easily play by their rules and then call the credit card company and report them. They won't get fined or anything; they'll just get a call or a letter from the company reminding them that that's not permitted.
- Mononuclear, on 07/11/2008, -4/+4I actually yesterday told a manager of an IHOP that she couldn't require ID. She had signs plastered all over near the cash register saying that without ID they will not accept credit or debit cards. I told her she couldn't refuse to accept a card without ID and she just brushed me off and went off on some rant about fraud.
It is interesting that this is on digg today because yesterday I was reading the merchant rules from visa's site.- antonio97b, on 07/11/2008, -3/+2why god would you want them to not ask for ID?
- Mononuclear, on 07/11/2008, -3/+3Because they don't need to and Visa tells them they shouldn't. I don't like showing my ID to random people. Maybe I am on my bike or walking and I don't want to carry my drivers license with me? It is much easier to fake an ID than it is a signature. They should be making sure your signature matches and that is all they need to worry about.
I don't care if they ask for ID.. they can't however require it. If they don't want to accept my Visa card without ID then they are refusing to take my money and I don't need to pay. - PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -7/+2Why were you eating at an IHOP?
What? are you poor? - Speed, on 07/11/2008, -3/+4"It is much easier to fake an ID than it is a signature"
Bizzaro World, is that you? Maybe I'm "spoiled" living in the province that boasts the "most secure ID in North America", but it is much much MUCH easier to fake a signature than an ID. Hell, you don't even have to fake it, just do a couple of quick scribbles and say "I'm in a hurry" and that'll usually pass as the signature.
Also, they aren't refusing to take your money (for starters, credit card=banks money), they are refusing to accept a plastic card that is not legal tender.
And the waitress at IHOP doesn't give a ***** what your address is, they just want to make sure they don't get a fradulent card so they don't get in trouble (and to get you the hell out of there)
- cam0man, on 07/11/2008, -1/+7Take out your phone and snap a pic of the sign. Tell them that it's against the merchant rules and you'll be reporting them. There's pretty hefty fines for violating the terms and they could even lose their merchant accounts all together. If they don't want to take your card, just report 'em and it shouldn't be an issue again.
Of course I'd feel like a real ***** if I tried to enforce any of the CC company rules on a merchant.
- Khast, on 07/11/2008, -0/+12"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason" is usually posted in stores. Unfortunately, if you try to complain about policies...they will most likely point to their sign, and bid you good day.
- grodrigu, on 07/10/2008, -2/+32Just make sure you don't mind never eating there again at places with a minimum because they have the right to tell you "No Soup For You!".
- nittanylion06, on 07/11/2008, -4/+3Sure, they can screw you by banning you from the place. But you can at least take them down with you by pointing out to Visa/Mastercard that they're violating their merchant agreement. Hope they don't enjoy taking credit cards anymore...
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4Only if Visa bothers to send an investigator to find out for sure that they have a minimum charge policy.
Considering that each merchant is not directly dealing with Visa, but is dealing with a processing bank that has an agreement with Visa, I doubt that would ever happen.
I think it would be up to the bank that processes their merchant account to investigate, and most of them are Ohio, Delaware and Illinois banks in small towns, so they probably aren't going to bother. - Dalrek, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Why would I want to take down a good Pho place just because they want a $10 minimum when every meal is under $7?
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4Only if Visa bothers to send an investigator to find out for sure that they have a minimum charge policy.
- nittanylion06, on 07/11/2008, -4/+3Sure, they can screw you by banning you from the place. But you can at least take them down with you by pointing out to Visa/Mastercard that they're violating their merchant agreement. Hope they don't enjoy taking credit cards anymore...
- huff51, on 07/11/2008, -5/+13dugg for not excepting american express
- viserov, on 07/11/2008, -10/+3Buried for incorrectly spelling "accepting"
- huff51, on 07/11/2008, -3/+6buried for not being observant
- RizzoFrank, on 07/11/2008, -0/+0RTFA
- theandy1, on 07/11/2008, -0/+5Haha
I didn't get it at first either, but the dictionary nazi that you owned made me look back at the article's pic. - ted510, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2He meant the first picture in the article put "excepting" instead of "accepting"! Bury me!
- petebert, on 07/11/2008, -14/+6***** you
- Duncan3, on 07/11/2008, -1/+33Sucking 2-5% out of the economy right off the top - priceless.
- chrysrobyn, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2You have never managed a credit card machine. They do indeed suck a fixed percentage, or a nominal fee (20-50 cents), whichever is greater. Minimum charges are a reflection of the nominal fee.
Of course, credit card fees (fraud included) is much lower than bad checks and even a little lower than counterfeit bills in the places I worked.- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3managing a verisign machine is not the same as being the owner of a merchant account.
It isn't 20 to 50 cents or a fixed percentage.
This is how it works:
You pay a fixed fee to use the processing network. It can range anywhere from 15 cents all the way up to one dollar (if you are using an online service with fraud detection). The average is 25 cents, to connect to the network.
Then you pay an average of about 10 cents per transaction. If you can run batches, you can save the 25 cents for each transaction, and run a bunch of cards during a single connection.
Then you pay, to your processing bank, a percentage of each transaction, anywhere from .75% to 3.75, maybe even 5%.
And, if a cardholder ever initiates a chargeback against you, and you cannot successfully dispute the chargeback (and the deck is stacked against the merchant), you lose the amount of the sale and a $25 penalty. (it may be higher now, I cancelled my merchant account in 2000.)
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3managing a verisign machine is not the same as being the owner of a merchant account.
- dood, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Neither cash nor checks are free to process. Credit cards are an undeniably convenient way for a merchant to accept money from a customer.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -1/+2Cash is very free. Nobody pays any sort of fee to deposit or withdraw cash from their bank. Checks are pretty much free unless you have a really crappy business account with some third-rate bank that actually charges you a half cent per check deposited.
If you're saying there's a labor cost, well, then there's still a labor cost with credit cards. In fact, if you're already taking cash, credit cards are an additional process when counting out and reconciling for the day. You have to count both your cash and total up all your credit card receipts to match against your total sales, so you know if you had any errors. - dood, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1With cash, you have more issues with employee theft and, unless it's more than a few bucks, hiring armed security guards to haul your cash to the bank. It's not free to process.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -1/+2Cash is very free. Nobody pays any sort of fee to deposit or withdraw cash from their bank. Checks are pretty much free unless you have a really crappy business account with some third-rate bank that actually charges you a half cent per check deposited.
- esfisher, on 07/16/2008, -0/+1Um.... credit card companies exist within the economy.
- chrysrobyn, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2You have never managed a credit card machine. They do indeed suck a fixed percentage, or a nominal fee (20-50 cents), whichever is greater. Minimum charges are a reflection of the nominal fee.
- tnoy, on 07/11/2008, -0/+16We'll probably see a story about someone complaining about a retailer not taking their card that had "See ID" written on the back on the consumerist website tomorrow.
- cadmiumpaint, on 07/11/2008, -1/+5WIth Micro Transactions becomming more popular i'm seeing less and less min charge restrictions in shops.
I have no problem with an independent business owner setting rules for transactions...its their store. If i don't like it i'll vote with my money and go somewhere else.- thelude, on 07/11/2008, -4/+5The deal is, if you want to take VISA and Mastercard, you have to abide by their rules. You can't set minimum purchase amounts for VISA or Mastercard transactions. I don't know why thats complicated. If your a merchant and don't like it, don't take VISA or Mastercard.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Exactly thelude. If you cant play by the rules of the company, that company doesnt have to play with you. But really, its up the the consumers to make the businesses uphold this policy. Visa doesnt go around and check very often until there are complaints. So if you eat there, just complain a lot to the merchant and visa.
- RyeBrye, on 07/11/2008, -9/+3I absolutely hate when vendors ask me to see my ID.
One day, I spent a few thousand dollars on furniture at a big furniture store. I put it on my credit card. They didn't ask to see my ID, and they didn't even bother to check the signature.
Later on, that same day I went to a local fast food place called "Arctic Circle" and bought a $6 meal. The teenager at the window made me show him my ID when I presented my credit card... which is really inconvenient because now I've got to fumble around to get my wallet back out - and then take my license out of the holder... etc - all for a token amount... (I've been back, and even for a $1 purchase they ask to see ID - which makes me laugh)
I don't quite understand the showing of ID... If anyone thinks it "protects you" you're mistaken. You are already protected - if someone steals your card you're only on the hook for $50 - but when you hand someone your ID AND your card - you are now giving some pimple-faced teenager enough information about you to steal your identity... (Although that's not why I hate showing my ID - I hate it because it's a hassle)- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3They aren't doing it to protect you. Yes, you are protected from fraud.
BUT THE MERCHANT IS NOT!
Do you know what a chargeback is?
Chargebacks kill businesses. The merchant loses the entire sale, and is hit with a $25 penalty.
I would think it is logical that a business owner is more cautious with $5 sales, because he risks losing 5 times what he stood to gain, if he mistakenly accepts a stolen card.
Not to mention that Visa makes out in either case. They charge fees to the merchant, and if the charge ends up being fraudulent, the merchant is the one who pays, and gives visa $25 extra for the fraud, the card holder doesn't lose, visa doesn't lose. It is all on the merchant. If the charge goes through and is not disputed, the merchant has paid up to 5% plus network fees, and the cardholder is going to most likely end up paying interest on it, and might even be paying annual fees, etc. - Speed, on 07/11/2008, -1/+5Even IF that "pimple-faced teenager" (and a clear skinned cashier, I do take offence to that) was smart enough to steal your identity, and could memorize your name, address, DOB, credit card number and expiry date in the five seconds they look at it, do you really think they'd want to? It's too much work. I ask for ID for large orders because I'm told to and because if I accept a fraudulent card, I get in trouble (since my employer loses money). I'm just trying to make enough money to avoid getting a student loan. Chances are: none of the cashiers you'll face give a ***** what your age is, where you live or any of that crap, they just want to get rid of you.
And don't bother flipping out on the person serving you if you don't like a store policy, ask for the manager and flip out on them.- RyeBrye, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1You said it - for LARGE ORDERS - I would hardly consider a $1 kids pack of corn dog nuggets or whatever they were a large order.
And no, I haven't ever said anything to the cashier except for a casual "Um... for a $1 purchase you need to see my ID?" as I hand it to them.
- RyeBrye, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1You said it - for LARGE ORDERS - I would hardly consider a $1 kids pack of corn dog nuggets or whatever they were a large order.
- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2furniture generally has a HUGE markup. the salesman is on commission and doesn't care who you are as long as he gets paid at the end of the week. food salesman sees hundreds of cards a week. if they lose out, they may lose the profit for an hour of the whole store or at least on a per employee basis. furniture store stands to make $600 on your $1000 purchase. % is the key.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Sort of, but pretty much. ;)
Only the owner of the business really cares about doing everything to avoid a chargeback.
The rest are either eager to get their commissions, or are hourly employees who could care less about anything but clocking in and out, and getting a paycheck. - NCg8r, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3You could have told him it was a stolen card and the furniture salesman would have suggested you buy MORE.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Sort of, but pretty much. ;)
- RyeBrye, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Sure, they might be trying to avoid the $1 chargeback - but as a result of their (in my mind) unreasonable policy to always ask for my ID I never buy food there anymore.
Grocery stores run thinner margins than fast food restaurants, and my local grocery store doesn't even require a SIGNATURE on purchases less than $20 - yet for the burger joint I have to show my government issued ID for a $1 purchase?
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3They aren't doing it to protect you. Yes, you are protected from fraud.
- Osmanthus, on 07/11/2008, -6/+3This list is not in practice entirely correct. Every merchant has a specific contract with their bank for taking credit cards, the contracts are not all the same. And, merchants do not have a contract with the customer, and thus, the customer has no standing to tell the merchant what they can and can't do. Credit cards are not 'legal tender' and a merchant can refuse to take one for any reason they want. The only recourse the customer has when they are refused is to 'report' the merchant to Visa, which does exactly jack and squat.
The whole 'see ID' thing is especially a red herring. Merchants are allowed to require ID, and in fact if they do not do so they are opening themselves up to liability, since they can be held responsible for fraudulent charges (unlike customers). That is to say, checking ID protects the merchant, not the customer.- wattznext, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Where do you get this information from?
- cosmictap, on 07/13/2008, -0/+1That's not true at all. Merchants are required to follow credit card companies' acceptance guidelines or they can be fined or suspended from the network.
- shindig111, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4Is this list applicable only to US law? I am in India and I really hope they find some ground here too. Here in India, many merchants charge 2% extra if a credit card is used. Also, there is a minimum purchase amount for swiping your credit card.
Another interesting information. Merchants try to avoid VAT by not billing purchases. They tell you that if a credit card is used, they will need to charge 12.5% extra as well.
Indian merchants are the worst at exploiting for their own damn good. No wonder India is one of the most corrupt nations in the world.- RadioVibes, on 07/11/2008, -2/+2Ya, they have spread it here to Canada as well, specifically in certain areas Like Vancouver, BC. It's like an infection you can't stop!
- pak314, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4What is the average APR for credit cards in India. Last I saw it was some crazy rates between 30% and 40%!
- kianbung, on 07/11/2008, -2/+2haha. crazy indians.
- Rizmaster, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Ahhh, Indians. Always looking for "Cheapah"
"Do you have cheapah? cheapah! cheapah!"
- ronk, on 07/11/2008, -2/+3OK, what is the deal with this one?? Both options are the same! You are paying more if you use the credit card!
5) Merchants Cannot Charge A Surcharges For Using A Credit Card, However, They Can Offer A "Cash Discount"
You may have noticed that gas stations are starting to offer a different, higher price for credit cards. This isn't technically allowed— unless it is marketed as a "cash discount." In other words, if you fill up your car and find that you've been charged more than advertised because you paid with a credit card — that's not allowed. If, however, you decide to pay with cash because you saw an advertised "cash discount" to the "regular price" — that's ok. A subtle distinction, but an important one.- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4The difference is Visa CAN require that it's merchants charge the same amount. Visa CANNOT require that it's merchants not give discounts to certain things. Wording having to do with legal issues.
Basically to you or me it means no difference, but it makes it harder for merchants to do it and makes Visa's opinion clear to merchants that they don't like it. - BaronSamedi242, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6It's like renting an apartment in Tennessee and paying a "non refundable deposit".
Isn't that a fee?
"No sir, it's illegal in the State of Tennessee to charge a fee, what we're doing here is a $700 deposit, $500 of which is a refundable deposit, and $200 of which is a nonrefundable deposit".
Companies will always find some way to get around a law or policy.... bastards. - Origin415, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Shouldn't this mean the prices on the big sign outside of gas stations should have the real price, not the "cash discount"?
I've been caught by that before (I don't carry cash on me basically ever), so I'm more watchful now, but its still freakin annoying. Atleast they could show both.- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Yes, it does mean that. Whether the gas station abides by that or not is entirely different.
- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4The difference is Visa CAN require that it's merchants charge the same amount. Visa CANNOT require that it's merchants not give discounts to certain things. Wording having to do with legal issues.
- centran, on 07/11/2008, -0/+78) Merchants Are Not Allowed To Place A Hold For The Estimated Tip
I once had to void a CC transaction because the amount was wrong. The customer called back several hours later yelling at us that we charged her twice and we better fix it.
Since I voided the first transaction and rang up a new one, she had two authorizations on her CC and it was showing up under pending. I had to re-assure her that it would turn out fine once we transmitted our batch but she didn't want to believe us.
So I can defiantly see why they have this rule. Personally... I don't think CC should show customers their pending transactions but instead force merchants to submit their batch every day. The whole reason they show the pending is becuase some merchants wait a whole damn week to submit their batch so they can lump the small processing fee. If you can't afford to process your batch every day then you shouldn't take CC in the first place!- jakejeffries, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6Right on! I completely agree! Batch transmission should be automatic.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Actually, some banks do require their merchants to run their batches before the end of the day. They can penalize, even cancel accounts who consistently fail to close out their batches by the end of the day.
BUT, don't forget that in transactions that do not have a final dollar amount, the merchant often does an auth transaction, which merely places a hold on an estimated amount, and then charges the final amount.
Improperly done, you can end up with, say, $100 held, and $85 charged, for a total of $185 less available credit. I think some gas stations do this, they mistakenly create a new charge, rather than using the auth transaction number to run the charge.
And, when I was a front desk clerk for a hotel during college, we used to get complaints from people who used a credit card to check in. If they were staying for 5 days, we always authed $1,000 on their card. Some people would come to the front desk a day or two later to complain that we "maxed out their card". I had to explain to them that we always get approval for the approximate cost of their stay, that we haven't taken money from them, but by the way, why are you spending money on your card if it will cause you to exceed your available credit to pay for your hotel room?? - jhandfield, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3Domino's (at least here north of Boston) is notorious for this, when you pay with a card they tack on a 20% 'estimated tip.' Even if I DID tip the pizza guy (I always pick mine up at the store), I'm certainly not tipping 20%...
They also enjoy fudging the tax from the 5% that it should be up to sometimes as high as 6 or 6.5%. I suppose I really should stop going to this store... :-P- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2Report them to whatever agency is in charge of sales tax in Mass.
If they're charging 6% tax, I'm sure the state would appreciate it if they report it all and hand every last penny over to them.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2Report them to whatever agency is in charge of sales tax in Mass.
- rubaaan, on 07/11/2008, -2/+31hmm i cant wait to use this against ticket master. they charge extra when you use a credit card. theyre out of their minds.
i remember buying a saves the day ticket
price: $15
after ''convenience'' fees and taxes: $32
+ like 2 bucks just cause i wanted to use my credit card.
WTF!!!!? thats more than twice the ticket price?
i ended up buying em at the door for 17. ***** ticketmaster. ***** them in their buttholes with 3 penises.- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4They have been renamed "TICKETMONSTER" since at least 1997. ;)
- Cassanova, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6that has to be one of the most creative cusses Ive ever heard
- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/11/2008, -0/+16Great article but I have a stupid question...
What is the point of requiring ID for unsigned cards but if they're signed then its not allowed to ask for ID. I couldn't tell if the signatures match or not(unsigned cards). Not to mention my signature on my driver's license was written with one of those screens where you can't see what the hell your writing and is mostly just a squiggily line that looks nothing like my real signature. But if my card is signed then I automatically can't be using a fraud?
Maybe I'm missing something, but wtf?- mrblister, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3The signature match is between the receipt you sign, and your card. If your card isn't signed, it would be your ID.
- ldkronos, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1They are matching your receipt signature to the one on your card. If the card isn't signed, then the ID is only used to validate the signature being put on the card. Yes a thief can get an unsigned card, sign it with a fake signature, and you'd never know the difference. That's why people are instructed to sign the card right away...to prevent that from happening.
- WalkerTXclocker, on 07/12/2008, -1/+1Okay, so part of it really was a stupid question, but I still don't see how a minimum wage high school student is supposed to tell if signatures "match". Also, many stores now have those stupid electronic signatures for signing your CC receipt and once again it never looks anything close to a real signature.
- swiftheart, on 07/12/2008, -0/+0The signature is there more for the purpose of ensuring that the card holder has agreed to the credit card contract. It can play a secondary role of verification that the individual presenting the card is the card holder, but that's not its main purpose. The key part of the process a merchant is supposed to have the customer follow when an unsigned card is presented is *not* the showing of ID, but the signing of the card.
Having said that, VISA/MC forbid merchants from requiring ID because they want the process of the card being accepted to be as easy as possible (remember the Visa commercials from a couple years ago where some famous person tries to pay something with a check and then can't find their ID...whereas paying with Visa is really easy?)
Remember, anytime you pay with a debit card with a PIN, there is 2% of that transaction which VISA/MC didn't capture. By keeping it as easy as possible, they hope that people will choose to charge via the VISA/MC payment system, and not pay via debit card and PIN, or use cash.
- maxlightz, on 07/11/2008, -1/+9When i was in San Diego 2 years ago just about every "tourist" related merchant required it mandatory to see ID with credit cards. The upside here is that if petty thieves know they will be checked for ID, then it stops the crime before it starts because they know the stolen credit card is useless to them.
As for the minimum transaction, some of the merchant plans have a flat fee per swipe and then a fixed percentage of the swipe amount. So for example every swipe costs $1.50 and then 3-5% of the keyed amount. So if I'm buying water and gum for $2.00, after the cost of the swipe and the cost of the inventory, the merchant LOSES money just for taking my business. That's not very American/capitalist so who can blame them?
Other merchant services will have a higher swipe cost but a much lower %. This particular benefits merchants with a larger average ticket size.- DigitAl56K, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2"When i was in San Diego 2 years ago just about every "tourist" related merchant required it mandatory to see ID with credit cards."
Yes, and it's f'ing annying!
"The upside here is that if petty thieves know they will be checked for ID, then it stops the crime before it starts because they know the stolen credit card is useless to them."
What, do you think thieves steal wallets and purses and then toss the ID but keep the credit card?- maxlightz, on 07/15/2008, -0/+1you must be mexican. i don't look mexican so my ID won't help them
- arjung, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2i thought all Visa and MasterCard charges were $0.30 + 2.9%?
- DigitAl56K, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2"When i was in San Diego 2 years ago just about every "tourist" related merchant required it mandatory to see ID with credit cards."
- Sparky9292, on 07/11/2008, -0/+24I worked for a credit card processing center. A couple things you should know:
Visa hates people using cash. They get no cut of the transaction.
Visa's number one concern is brand name trust. They don't want anyone making Visa look bad. If you take your card, and it gets rejected by a merchant for purchases under $5.00, or some stupid made-up signature rule, Visa WANTS you to report that merchant. They want their cut and they want you to have the confidence that the card will work ANYWHERE the logo is posted.
If you call the number on the back of your card, The issuer will send a nasty-gram to the ISO (the people who sold the credit card terminal to the merchant), and either raise the interchange rates on the ISO or kick them off the VISA network. Generally the ISO will bitch out the merchant or punish them by raising the interchange rates even more!
The really unfair part is that small merchants don't get the really good deals on interchange rates that the big boys do. Look at McDonalds and Burger King.... they have great deals on small charges (less than $25) and they don't even require a signature.
So in essence, when Merchants accept an ISO and accept credit card transactions, they are making a deal with the devil, IMHO.- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6Good points. Everyone here has just been assuming that credit cards are king, but really it's a lopsided balance of power between the credit companies and small businesses.
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Why wouldn't Visa make good deals with the small merchants? very low swipe and % fees for small purchases. And just make them pay more yearly or put their fraud/penalty rates much higher to protect themselves from scammers? Makes sense since they want as many charges as possible. You could start seeing swipers everywhere, even on the beach with wireless transmitters for a router back at the beach hut. Im sure they would love that.
- Blade2000, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Visa hates people using cash???? No *****.
- macslut, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Contrary to the article, criminals have forged signatures found on the credit cards. I had my card stolen once and didn't realize it was gone from my wallet for quite some time. I went through the routine of disputing the charges, but Visa claimed the signatures were valid on most of the charges. I then started putting See ID on my credit cards. I've never once been denied a charge. I've been doing this for about 20 years now.
Putting your signature on your card is literally telling any thief, "here this is how you should make the signature look". Whether they can, or do is another matter, but it doesn't hurt you, the card holder.
And yes, I get asked to show ID only about 25% of the time, but if I had that on my card that got stolen, it would've saved me a couple of hundred dollars in disputed charges, at a time when that was a lot of money for me.
Why every credit/debit/atm card doesn't allow for your picture to be placed on it is beyond me.- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2From my experience as a merchant account holder, I would suspect that some of the banks that process some of the merchants in your case did still chargeback some of those charges, even though they still made you pay for those charges.
I know because I had a rash of chargebacks that I could not dispute, and lost the sale amount plus $25 for each one, just because they were "indonesian issued credit cards" even though we had verified everything we were required to verify. So I had a friend from college buy a CD on my website, who just happened to have moved to Indonesia and had a locally issued card. He didn't dispute the charge, and it showed up on his statement, but my Ohio bank faxed me a chargeback request, and even though I faxed a copy of his driver's license, I still got charged back.
I cancelled my merchant account with that bank. I think it was Bridgeview Bank, or something like that, and got a more reputable bank to process my charges after that. Well, "more reputable" is a relative term. - jhandfield, on 07/11/2008, -0/+125% is an amazing rate, I'm probably closer to 5%, even on multi-thousand dollar charges.
- Origin415, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2I have never seen anyone check my signature, nor in my 2 years as a cashier, checked anyone's signature. I'm not going to hold up a line of customers to dispute whether someone dotted their I correctly. You can't rely on a signature for any security whatsoever. I agree that there should be a picture or some other biometric.
My credit card (American Express Blue) doesn't even have a signature thing on it, so I guess the CC companies realize this.- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2The credit card companies really don't care who uses the card, just so long as it gets used.
The merchant is the one who gets left with lost merchandise and money out of HIS pocket.
Everyone else makes out just fine no matter if the card was used legitimately or fraudulently.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2The credit card companies really don't care who uses the card, just so long as it gets used.
- swiftheart, on 07/12/2008, -0/+0>Why every credit/debit/atm card doesn't allow for your picture to be placed on it is beyond me.
a.) It's an expensive pain in the ass that has no upside for the issuer
b.) It puts the issuer in the position of being liable for malfeasance done with the ID card. They just don't want to deal with that.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2From my experience as a merchant account holder, I would suspect that some of the banks that process some of the merchants in your case did still chargeback some of those charges, even though they still made you pay for those charges.
- NonLeftistDiggr, on 07/11/2008, -0/+5How about for some of my fellow americans
The purchases you charge on the card are not free.- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+7They aren't free for the business accepting them, and they aren't free for the person making the charge.
But it is free money for Visa and all the banks that process credit cards.
Not to mention, the "minimum monthly payment" has been calculated to keep you in debt for over 40 years.- NonLeftistDiggr, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2What I'm saying is you have to pay off the card, millions of people don't understand that.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Yup.
Please reread my comment.
See, especially, that part about minimum monthly payments being designed to make it almost impossible to ever pay off your debt. - PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2NonLeftistDiggr,
Let me spell it out for you.
I worked for a bank during college.
Then I had a merchant account a few years later, accepting all credit cards.
I know the system.
I only pay cash now. I don't even use my Visa Check card all that much. I pull green bills out of my pocket for 99% of my purchases.
For two reasons:
First, It lets me know exactly what my spending capacity is.
Second, I am not giving money to someone who had nothing to do with making that sale, even if it is the merchant who ends up paying them. I don't mind if someone who is selling me something makes some money for providing me a product I want. But I don't see why some third party should skim a little off the top, so to speak.
Visa would love to create a cashless society. Because they would make sure the government doesn't intervene and create some other form of cashless barter.
I'm just not all that into some corporation controlling our commerce. - Mightbiteyou, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Sending the same piece of junk mail 3 times a week trying to get me to sign up for a credit card I already have costs allot of money, they need that 2%
- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1You only should use the min monthly payment for a very short period of time. There was a time when I had about 400-700$ on a card because I could not pay it off for a few months (college!). I had to pay the minimum a few times, but usually i would just pay 100-200$ a month, and then put it back on with gas to save my credit score. You will never get out of debt with that minimum payment, but thats not what its there fore.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2pittance, there was a documentary in the last year or two about the credit card industry.
The guy who devised the minimum monthly payment concept clearly stated on the documentary that it turned out to be one of the single largest money makers for credit card companies. The entire purpose, as far as the credit card companies are concerned, is to keep people from paying off their cards so they churn balances and build up interest for years and years.
He said something along the lines of "We knew that most people, if given the choice of paying the minimum, would choose to do so, so we lowered it to a point where we knew we could make as much money as possible."
- PhilLesh69, on 07/11/2008, -0/+7They aren't free for the business accepting them, and they aren't free for the person making the charge.
- onClipEvent, on 07/11/2008, -2/+8I work at a very busy location in Vancouver, Canada. We get all sorts of people from all over the world (if you've visited Vancouver, chances are you've seen us. The ONLY people that put "SeeID" or "CID" in place of a signature are Americans, absolutely no one else (not even Canadians). I can only suspect it's a cultural/word of mouth thing, where people are telling others to do that. That just reminds me, the ONLY people that get hyper-paranoid about their credit card numbers showing on the *merchants'* copy of the receipt are also Americans. (they like to scratch it off thinking we can't see it...erm, it's in our computer, or just hold it up in the light)
Okay, never mind what i said about the word of mouth thing.... Americans are just paranoid.- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -1/+8the issue with the card # showing up on the receipt has to do with the fact that it is not lawful for companies in the us to put the whole # on the receipt. only the last 4 digits are allowed. people all over the world can call americans stupid, but it sounds like they are being proactive about identity theft and credit card fraud.
this thinking isn't necessarily because it affects them directly, they know that the bank will pay them back. this is because they understand the costs it has to society and their own personal hassle to deal with straightening out the problem.- Pittance, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4Actually most people are worried the banks wont pay them back. I dont think anyone considers the costs to society, in any culture. That is something for sociologists to worry about. But putting the whole number on a receipt is foolish. If the thief can guess the exp date, and you dont need the cvc code, he can just buy $1ks of stuff online instantly.
- onClipEvent, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2to clarify: the law only prohibits numbers printed on the *cardholder's* receipt (the one customers get). unless there are specific laws in your US-state that says otherwise, there are no restrictions on CC numbers (and exp date) showing up on the *merchant's* copy. btw, i never said americans were stupid, just more paranoid than most. (although we did have an Americans asking if we took Canadian Dollars few days ago).
- arjung, on 07/11/2008, -2/+5isn't it illegal for merchants to hang on to credit card numbers after the transaction is posted? i'm pretty sure it is in america.
- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4It's illegal for them to hold on to the card security codes, but credit card numbers can definitely be retained. Haven't you ever stored your billing information at a website for later use?
- qwertydvorak, on 07/11/2008, -1/+8the issue with the card # showing up on the receipt has to do with the fact that it is not lawful for companies in the us to put the whole # on the receipt. only the last 4 digits are allowed. people all over the world can call americans stupid, but it sounds like they are being proactive about identity theft and credit card fraud.
- TheMachine1, on 07/11/2008, -3/+3Ultimately credits cards are a tax you put on every transactions.
- goochg, on 07/11/2008, -1/+0Would be nice to know the UK rules, seeing that IKEA charge 60p for a Credit Card transaction and most places have a £5 min spend
- kinerry, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4The UK ***** you from all angles
- sporg, on 07/11/2008, -0/+6It makes no sense paying 15%-20% interest+ fees on purchases when you can use a debit card just as easily and be charged only for the item or service. Main reason people use credit cards so much is they are spending money they don't have.
- korvan504521, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2But a debit card only works when you have money, which is a problem for many people who use credit cards.
- minoss, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Well debit cards also don't build credit and generally have lower limits on purchases since if they're stolen and used it is much harder to get your money back. Credit cards are very secure if they get stolen or number gets taken and you report that quickly. Happened to me once and I didn't pay anything.
- sporg, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Using credit cards builds credit so you can get more credit cards and buy more ***** you don't need!
Till something happens and suddenly your buried in skyrocketing interest rates and late fees until you will never get out from under it. This happens to 98% of people who play the credit game.
Nothing you pay for with credit is an asset it is a constant liability including your new car and your fancy new house.
Saving money and buying things outright is a much better long term financial strategy but don't try to tell your average american this as they will stare into space in confusion. - PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -1/+1sporg,
It doesn't happen to 98%. I think it is more like 60%, but that is still a very high percentage of people who sink under the weight of revolving credit.
There are intelligent people, responsible people who pay their balances off every month, or only rarely carry a balance into the next month.
Some people know how to leverage the cash they have, and use credit cards to ride the 30 day grace period and preserve liquidity.
Other people only have credit cards for emergencies, like if their furnace breaks, or their car's engine blows up, or they break a leg. - minoss, on 07/12/2008, -1/+1sporg,
Only if you have no financial management abilities. The interest rates on credit cards is far from hidden. You don't want one, you don't have to get one! It's called taking personal responsibility for your actions. I know it's tough to swallow but that's how life is. When I was young I ***** up and maxed out my cards. The only difference is I actually place ALL the blame on the person who actually deserves it, me. - sporg, on 07/13/2008, -0/+1Ok 98% was an exaggeration. Your talk about riding grace periods and liquidity shows that you should refrain from giving financial advice. In fact I should punch you in the mouth for even using the word "liquidity" in sentence that wasn't a joke. Economists are idiots and I'm not in the mood to deal with delusional proles toady. Blocked.
- mrsack, on 07/11/2008, -2/+0I use mine for everything because it goes towards rewards :D (and I do have the money)
- korvan504521, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2But a debit card only works when you have money, which is a problem for many people who use credit cards.
- MontrealCA, on 07/11/2008, -0/+0Ok after a couple years of just reading stuff on this site I've finally registered to post a comment. I'm going to assume that VISA works the same way here in Canada as it does in the US but missing from that list is that when purchasing something with your VISA (personal items such as clothes, jewelry, accessories and so on...) you have insurance for theft AND loss. VISA has reimbursed me in full for a pair of RayBans Ieft on a restaurant patio table and a pair of diamond earrings. I lost one of the earrings while snowboarding and I informed VISA that it was only ONE earring that was lost (thinking they'd only reimburse me half the money.) and they said no, they reimburse in full.
All they do if fax you a claim form, you fill it out and send them a copy of your receipt or VISA statement.
This was a couple years so I'd have to refresh myself on the guidelines but I believe there is a 3 month limit on this insurance.
Anybody else ever used this feature?- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2...are you sure? That would mean that VISA just takes the loss? They certainly can't force the loss on the merchant.
Also, isn't it your responsibility to make sure you don't lose any valuable items? And wouldn't this be very easily abused?
I'm not sure I believe you.
- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2...are you sure? That would mean that VISA just takes the loss? They certainly can't force the loss on the merchant.
- Cassanova, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I wish there was some way to setup my card so that it requires an ID..especially for big purchases. I've had to dispute charges on my card in the past and even though I get my money back it is a hassle and I hate the fact that someone out there just got some free stuff using my stolen money.
Also I think the minumum charge thing is to help out the merchants. Don't they get hit up with fees everytime you use your card so if you buy a $2 snack on your card, they end up losing money. - sremick, on 07/11/2008, -1/+5Reporting a merchant? Yeah, good luck with that one. They don't care. They want the business.
Not long ago my credit card info was in a list stolen from an online merchant (Edge Racing) that had been broken into. The list was posted on the internet in hacker forums. I actually saw the list, and not only did it contain thousands of customer credit card #s but also the expiration dates and 3-digit CSC as well, which according to their merchant agreements they are NOT allowed to store. You'd think keeping a local file with thousands of your customers' CC #s, expiration dates, and CSCs would land them in hot water, but nope. I filed a complaint with VISA citing the text of their own merchant agreement, and not a damn thing was done.- sphigel, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2I can't speak for your individual case but by and large the fact that Visa does "want the business" would ensure that they would look into these reports. Presumably when people report merchants it would be because of some policy that caused them not to use their card when they normally would have. This is a loss of business for VISA. VISA can then bully the merchant into complying with their rules. Obviously the merchant will have much more to lose than VISA so they will end up complying.
- metallic07039, on 07/11/2008, -1/+4Every time I buy something at the Apple store they ask for my ID. They tell me it is company policy to ask everyone and I hate it. Bad Apple!
- godling, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Its great to get this out there. Merchants get really angry when you refuse to pay a min charge or service fee and then threaten to report them for violating their merchant agreement for credit cards but they back down 99% of the time.
- minoss, on 07/11/2008, -2/+2Well, when they get charged a flat fee per transaction (like most smaller companies do) it isn't very difficult to understand why they would do that.
- sphigel, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2I think the point is that they entered into an agreement when they applied to accept VISA. They are not living up to this agreement. So while it is easy to understand why they do that it does not make them right.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -1/+1sphigel,
It is their store. They can call the cops on you and say that you were trespassing. You are on their property.
They are right.
- minoss, on 07/11/2008, -2/+2Well, when they get charged a flat fee per transaction (like most smaller companies do) it isn't very difficult to understand why they would do that.
- ykinc, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1I long for the day people stop entitling their articles with this stupid "10 things this" "19 things that" prefixes. Some of these 'things' are really worse reading but this sounds a little stupid after a while now.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2Yeah, people should stop describing a list of ten things as "10 things". It is just too damn descriptive of what the article is about. How dare they?
- readerz, on 07/11/2008, -1/+3Wow I didn't know that about rule #4, In NYC I should go out ball busting merchants today!!
- dhirajj, on 07/11/2008, -0/+3the bars here are especially notorious for doing exactly that.
- firebook23, on 07/11/2008, -1/+2Visa = the devil
- Blade2000, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Make that 1 thing I didn't know.
- katich, on 07/11/2008, -4/+0Ashland (NYSE:ASH) announced this morning that it is buying Hercules (NYSE:HPC) for $2.6 billion in a cash and stock deal – a 38% premium to yesterday’s close.Get more at http://tinyurl.com/5cdvky .
- recruz, on 07/11/2008, -0/+4however, merchants reserve the right to refuse service ...
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2That's true.
A savvy merchant would not deny your credit card, but if you try to use a credit card, he can just refuse to sell to you at all.
That way, he's just reserving his right to refuse service, and not violating his merchant account agreement.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2That's true.
- skinny01, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1What kind of questions are they asking for the code 10 that the cashier can just answer yes or no about you? Height, weight, race, types of items bought that are typical for you that you that would be in their secret database?
- rollxnut, on 07/11/2008, -1/+4DO NOT try to call Visa and complain about the "Requiring A Minimum Transaction Amount". I just tried to call and english is not their primary language. It made it VERY difficult for them to get the information.
So just e-mail them at askvisa@visa.com
Things You need to have in the email:
your name,
phone number,
address,
your problem, "Requiring A Minimum Transaction Amount",
the business name,
phone number and address.
I know its a dick move, but sometimes you might just need to grab some gum, or a drink and I dont want to end up buying $5.00 worth of crap I dont need.- ldkronos, on 07/11/2008, -3/+1Is it too much to ask you to keep a $10 bill in your wallet? I guess a lot of people have a hard time sympathizing with a small business owner. Since becoming one myself a few years ago, I can tell you that the fees suck on a small purchase. It's really changed my perspective on the topic. Now I make sure I always carry at least $20 with me and generally obey a $10 minimum even when not posted. The only exception I generally make is for large retailers where I frequently spend $50+ per visit. I figure they make plenty off my normal purchases, so it's not so much to ask when I occasionally need something small.
- sphigel, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2That's what we call the cost of doing business. I'm assuming small business owners are aware of all the conditions of the agreement when they enter it. Sometimes I don't have any cash on me and I want to use my credit card to buy a small item. Maybe I don't want to pay a $2 ATM fee just to buy a soda.
- ldkronos, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2"Sometimes I don't have any cash on me and I want to use my credit card to buy a small item."
Whooosh! That was my point going right over your head. You don't forget to keep a credit card on you, so how hard is it to not forget to keep a $10 or $20 bill in your wallet along with the credit card? Most merchants (myself included) wouldn't have a real problem with you using the card for an $8 or $10 purchase. A $5 is even borderline, but $1.50 is just ridiculous.
- sphigel, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2That's what we call the cost of doing business. I'm assuming small business owners are aware of all the conditions of the agreement when they enter it. Sometimes I don't have any cash on me and I want to use my credit card to buy a small item. Maybe I don't want to pay a $2 ATM fee just to buy a soda.
- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -2/+3So pay in cash.
Seriously, people that pay with CC for small purchases just annoy the hell out of me. What's so difficult about keeping a fiver in your wallet?
- ldkronos, on 07/11/2008, -3/+1Is it too much to ask you to keep a $10 bill in your wallet? I guess a lot of people have a hard time sympathizing with a small business owner. Since becoming one myself a few years ago, I can tell you that the fees suck on a small purchase. It's really changed my perspective on the topic. Now I make sure I always carry at least $20 with me and generally obey a $10 minimum even when not posted. The only exception I generally make is for large retailers where I frequently spend $50+ per visit. I figure they make plenty off my normal purchases, so it's not so much to ask when I occasionally need something small.
- bf01, on 07/11/2008, -2/+5A couple more things you need to know:
1) You can't anonymously report minimum transaction violators to Visa. They insist on knowing who you are. I've called Visa several times and escalated each to management and they all say the same thing. I don't trust Visa not to penalize me in some way, so I'd rather them not know who I am.
2) 99.9% of merchants won't even bother looking at your signature. I started scribbling my name, they didn't care. I started scribbling anything, they didn't care. I started coloring in the entire box, they didn't care.
I had one gas station convenience store guy refuse to take my credit card for some Blistex (that I desperatly needed and I didn't have any cash). I informed him of the Visa rules that said you couldn't have a minimum. The dude went ape-***** and was yelling at me so we got in a huge argument. Now I go there every day on the way to work and buy $0.25 worth of gas. Stupid *****.- ldkronos, on 07/11/2008, -1/+4way to be a jackass
- gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+21. Why would they penalize you? It's in their interest to penalize the business instead - they want as many credit transactions as possible. Here, have a tinfoil hat.
2. The signature is only important if the charge is disputed. You can sign your transactions "Chuck Norris" for all they care, unless you contest the charge.
3. I sure hope stopping for 25 cents of gas every day is worth it. I bet you're a lot of fun at parties too.- bf01, on 07/11/2008, -1/+31. Because they can. If they don't care about me, why do they insist on knowing who I am? I can see asking for my name to try to sucker me into giving it up, but respecting my desire not to give it to them. But to have absolutely no exceptions is too strange.
2. So does that mean that I can dispute all my charges and say the scribbles aren't my signature? Cool!
3. It's 2 minutes out of my day. To piss that guy off is worth it. And I don't get invited to parties, so your comment doesn't apply. :-) - gavin422, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2In response to #2 - yeah, pretty much. But as someone further up the thread said, if you initiate too many chargebacks (e.g. more than one a year or something) you'll probably get investigated by the credit companies for fraud.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+3Actually, if VIsa wanted to, they could request copies of the signatures on other transactions, the ones you didn't dispute, and if they find a similar style of signature as on the one you're disputing, I bet they could deny the chargeback and claim you were attempting to defraud them.
I've noticed that my "signature" tends to look alike on the electronic screens when I simply scribble a squiggly line on them. I'm sure a handwriting expert could differentiate my scribble from someone else's scribble.
- bf01, on 07/11/2008, -1/+31. Because they can. If they don't care about me, why do they insist on knowing who I am? I can see asking for my name to try to sucker me into giving it up, but respecting my desire not to give it to them. But to have absolutely no exceptions is too strange.
- notwizt, on 07/11/2008, -0/+1Does anyone know if these "facts" (would still like to see some kind of source) apply in the rest of the world, specifically Sweden where I live, or just in the US? I mean, VISA is global so the policies should be the same, right?
- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+2I'm sure there are variances due to laws in each country. But I think the basic principles behind the rules are the same.
- jmbrysk, on 07/11/2008, -0/+2Rule number 4? Every freaking "News Stand" style shop in every freaking mall has that five dollar minimum.
- TravelBlogHelp, on 07/11/2008, -1/+0www.saveabuck.net
Make sure when you get both receipts that you scratch your cc numbers off the bill. I dont care if accounting needs it. I wont let anyone have it,- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Where is any POS (point of sale) not replacing the first 12 digits with x's, or only printing the last 4 digits, anymore?
- ordeready, on 07/12/2008, -1/+0In some Restaurants You will find a minimum purchase $10.00 if You want to pay with a credit card.
- jschnees, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Yeah and in some stores but that isn't legal. I never knew that but now that I do, I'll correct them from now on!
- opiniastrous, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Interesting article.
In regard to the first one, no-one will ask you for ID in Australia unless they check your signature with the signature on the back of the card (which you should have signed immediately) and are suspicious of it. That's becoming unnecessary these days anyway, because since the beginning of this month we've been able to enter a PIN code rather than sign for your credit card.- PhilLesh69, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1A lot of merchants in the United States no longer ask for signatures for purchases under $50, or $25 or some cutoff point. No pin either, they just swipe and hand you your card and receipt.
- gr00, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1I really don't understand why credit cards don't have your picture on them? Is it really that hard?
I have a Citi MC (used to be a Citi Visa) and it has had my picture on it since about 1999 -- merchants still flip the thing over when they hand the receipt for me to sign even though my signature is already on the card itself (on the front) along with the picture. lol.
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