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75 Comments
- ajaxmil, on 05/06/2009, -4/+35The problem with full court press is that it's way too tiring for the guards. That's why in NBA, the full court press is used sparingly. I'm pretty sure that NBA coaches would use it all the time if they could.
Poorly constructed logic FTW. - dannykeene, on 05/06/2009, -1/+26Using the full court press is a great move, but it just can't work that well with older players who have the strength to throw the ball down court for a full court pass, but it is a great way to disrupt an offense.
Great article, and great insight from an ousiders view of things. I wonder how an american athlete could alter cricket or other sports that they typically never had exposure to. Same goes for any profession. - krebcycle, on 05/07/2009, -0/+23It worked for 12 year old girls though apparently. Most likely it was a psychological weapon more than just the effect of the defense; 12 year old girls aren't that used to in-your-face aggression like a full court press.
- andybryant, on 05/06/2009, -0/+22Interesting article from Gladwell on effort winning over the traditional way of doing things... Lots to learn. Oh - yes - it's about basketball, but don't let that put you off...
- imikedaman, on 05/07/2009, -7/+25This article is unbelievably wordy and meandering. Was it written by someone who has ADHD or something?
EDIT: Skip half the article to get to the good stuff, starting with "Redwood City’s strategy was built around the two deadlines that all basketball teams must meet in order to advance the ball."
You can stop reading after a few paragraphs. The guy gets all OOH A BUTTERFLY again. - Lonewolfx77, on 05/06/2009, -0/+16I'm pretty sure you could argue that about almost every sport...
- boblyBob, on 05/07/2009, -0/+13I think you're missing the point. The coach observed the conditions of the game he was presented.... 12 year old opponents without the abilities to effectively break a full court press, and then trained his team at great pain to use this strategy all the time. The article is not stating that the press is the ultimate basketball strategy. The article is saying to analyze the given conditions of whatever the game, to come up with disruptive, out of the box solutions.
- wmute, on 05/07/2009, -0/+10It's not seen often in the NBA because in an 82 game schedule, your players will be too exhausted at the end of the season. Proof of this is when Rick Pitino coached the celtics, with Chauncey Billups admitting he was exhausted. Celtics didn't finish well, and Billups was traded and given up on.
You see it more often in the NCAA, but again, for teams that aren't likely to look to the bench often, you're overcomitting your stars on defense and when you need that energy on the offensive end, it won't be there. Jumpshots fall flat, offensive stagnates, that lost energy shifts to the defense where you start to slack off because you can't wait to get back on offense, and your lead widens.
It works somewhat in the NCAA because players don't practice that much against it, though a creative point guard who can get the ball up is what you'll need if all five players aren't great passers, particularly your big men. It works less in the NBA because everyone is above-average at best when it comes to getting free from defenders, or finding ways to get the ball to your guards. - ZeroCubed, on 05/07/2009, -0/+9Wow that's a pretty insightful article. I just learned something about battle tactics I never considered before, even though when you really think about it, it's so obvious!
And, the legs instead of arms strategy was used in Ender's Game. Ender broke down his troop into 6-8 platoons instead of the usual four, and that gave him the advantage of speed and agility against opponents that were used to a structured and formal way of the Battle Room. And just like the Davids in this article, the opposing teams in Battle School weren't very happy with Ender's extremely effective strategy. - allodude, on 05/07/2009, -0/+8Probably not that much, cricket-wise. There are set positions and routes, kind of like baseball, so it's pretty rigid.
- Barackalypse, on 05/07/2009, -0/+8That is the feel-good lesson of the article, but the real lesson is that stubbornly failing to adapt your actions in the face of new tactics that are defeating you will cause superior entities to lose.
- KimmyGibbler, on 05/07/2009, -1/+9"Arrijaga passes to Barrijaga, Barrijaga passes to Arrijaga, Arrijaga passes to Barrijaga"
- Barackalypse, on 05/07/2009, -0/+7I thought the article made it clear they were blond white girl offspring of computer programmers, in other words basketball kryptonite.
- atlasdugged, on 05/06/2009, -0/+7dugg for the underdog
- HisNoodly, on 05/07/2009, -5/+11Beautifully-written article.
- SSPink, on 05/07/2009, -0/+6Yeah, you can only employ this strategy in leagues with a very low skill level, any sort of offensive talent at all will take advantage of the open court to get the ball inside and finish.
- jawni, on 05/06/2009, -1/+7I think david beat him with a rock, that's how.
- asgardshill, on 05/06/2009, -3/+9Neat article and Dugg, but it meanders down quite a few rabbit trails while making its points.
- ghatid, on 05/07/2009, -0/+6Not soccer...not much scoring, just a lot of running.
- Barackalypse, on 05/07/2009, -2/+8This story more seems to be about people's stubbornness to adopt a new strategy in the face of something that has rendered the traditional way of doing things a losing proposition. This is the same story facing the MPAA and the RIAA as they battle technology instead of embracing it. I would suggest that talent with adaptation should nearly always overcome lesser skill that relies on a one trick pony based on outside the box thinking.
- seclife321, on 05/07/2009, -0/+6That's why they trained rigorously. You build up your endurance so that you can do the press for longer.
- LargeStack, on 05/07/2009, -0/+5I‘m not a fan of BasketBall, but this was right up there with some of the best articles I‘ve read.
- b0b157, on 05/07/2009, -0/+5Dugg for Ender's Game example.
- TCBevolver, on 05/06/2009, -1/+4"The process would perverse itself"?
I do not think that word means what you think it means. - Wolfie351, on 05/07/2009, -3/+6Painting yourselves as the underdog with Roger Craig and a Div 1 Duke player as "consultants" for a baseketball team consisting of 13 year olds is a stretch
- Billions, on 05/07/2009, -0/+3Just read this in the magazine on Tuesday... It's definitely a Malcolm Gladwell piece, which is good and sorta bad too (The 'bad': he tends to stick with concepts like 'it goes against all rules, the establishment just couldn't deal!' and rarely delve past that), but this is an excellent read. The 'good': Gladwell touches on seemingly disparate topics to support the main concept. It's more about lateral thinking and effort vs. traditional strengths and trained skills, not simply basketball. It also covers Lawrence of Arabia, George Washington, and a naval battle simulation contest. My favorite line in the story is 'it was not really in the spirit of the tournament to have these weird computer-designed fleets winning,' from the part about
About the basketball, though... The truth to the 'full court press' is that your team has to be in INCREDIBLE shape, (something Gladwell mentions) but few teams have the endurance to pull off for entire games. I'd like to see it thrown into the mix a little more though! - Lonewolfx77, on 05/06/2009, -2/+5This is the same strategy my dad applied when he coached my soccer team. He would constantly move the defense up to limit the field that the offense played on. You're basically playing defense offensively. People tend to underestimate the power of good defense sadly.
- Maxjan, on 05/07/2009, -0/+3all you have to do is run a screen play and this plan all goes to hell.
- tflack, on 05/07/2009, -0/+3Works great for 12 year old girls I'm sure, but at the speed at which professional basketball is played it simply wouldn't work for a variety of reasons. First, as mentioned previously is the exhaustion factor, over 80+ games this would completely wear out your point guards. Second, full court press tends to expose holes in your defense that can be passed over. A simple screen can spring your superstar (or fastest point guard) for a down court pass for an easy score. Third, in the NBA the end line is used as an "extra" defender, offensive players are regularly forced baseline by the defending guards with the center and forwards collapsing to cut off the exit pass and lane to the basket, thereby "stranding" all but the best the league has to offer. By defending the half court position you expose many less straight lanes at the basket and allow rotational help defense which is all but a requirement to defend the superstars of today's game.
Children's leagues emulate this because it's the way the pro's play. No doubt there are a different set of variables at hand when you're dealing with 12 year olds and it's admirable that this guy took a look at exploiting those variables but he seems to suggest that the strategy of basketball overall is flawed, which it isn't. - poornbroken, on 05/07/2009, -0/+3he was fortunate that he had that consultant... only because he could give his girls the proper conditioning, ie maranthon runner.
and anjali was the only non-white (article says half-white) player on the team.
and finally, the girls who played did not have "talent" like the other players. all they had was "attitude." when they were not allowed their strategy, and played on conventional terms, it was a slaughter. - ajaxmil, on 05/07/2009, -0/+2Agreed. The only problem I had was the article worded it in a way to imply that this Junior League coach had found some secret to winning basketball that the pros don't even consider, when in fact that is total B.S.
FTA:
"He would never forget the first time he saw a basketball game. He thought it was mindless."
"A basketball court was ninety-four feet long. But most of the time a team defended only about twenty-four feet of that, conceding the other seventy feet."
"Team A would score and then immediately retreat to its own end of the court. Team B would inbound the ball and dribble it into Team A’s end, where Team A was patiently waiting."
These combined make it seem as though NBA coaching is mindless and inefficient, and some Junior League coach has just reinvented Basketball. - JasonMath, on 05/07/2009, -0/+2There are a few college teams that are famous for this other than Kentucky. I think that Loyola Marymount did that in in the early 1990's when they were a run and gun team. In 1990, they went to the Elite 8 as an 11 seed, and ended up winning against Michigan (a 3 seed) by a score of 149-115 in the second round.
In addition, VMI (Virginia Military Institute) currently uses the philosophy of a quick-fire offense and a full-court pressure defense. The pressure is slightly different than the girl's team in the article, as they often use two players to guard the opposing player inbounding the ball. This process worked when they beat who else - Kentucky. VMI won at Kentucky by a score of 111-103 in regulation, and it was only close because Kentucky had a big run late in the second half - in fact, VMI led 49-26 with 8:55 left in the first half. They ended up leading the nation in points per game, number of 3-pointers made and attempted, and number of steals. In the Kentucky game, they had 13 steals. At the end of the year, they amassed a 24-8 record, despite having no players over 6'7" tall.
So, there are still college teams that use a full-court defense. They are rare, but still occur today.
article about VMI at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/sports/ncaabaske ... - futurepastnow, on 05/07/2009, -0/+2If you skip the parts that aren't about basketball, you miss the point of this article.
- poornbroken, on 05/07/2009, -1/+3the point of the article isn't the basketball. it is how you can turn a "losing" situation into a winning situation through sheer effort instead of skill.
- S7aind, on 05/07/2009, -0/+2Missouri runs the full court press after every made basket, so does many other teams. It works well for them, but a lot of that has to do with a very quick team making up for lack of height.
- Billions, on 05/07/2009, -1/+3That's what you consider 'semi' ?
- plunderphonics, on 05/07/2009, -0/+2That's exactly how East Tennessee State almost beat Pittsburgh in the NCAA tourney this year.
- tonytroz, on 05/18/2009, -0/+1Almost every league has a rule to force you to get rid of the ball or make an attempt to drive towards the hoop if you're pressured by the defense (5 seconds or so, you can see the referee counting like they do for the 8 second backcourt rule).
- jawni, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1Very rarely can be used 100% in the pros but in youth games it works perfectly. Some of the youth leagues I played in did not allow full court presses
- mvest20, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1I think we can all agree that the press is an ineffectual strategy to be used consistently in the NBA or NCAA, but for younger ages and weaker skill levels, it makes total sense to utilize it this way. I think the bigger argument against it is that so many kids (or perhaps, their parents) feel like it would be unfair to have to play against such an aggressive defense all the time. Those parents would pitch a bloody fit 10 minutes into the game.
- Hockey13, on 05/07/2009, -2/+3I wanted to like it, but it's not very good. Aside from Ian McShane, the acting is quite mediocre, though that is probably exacerbated by the decidedly meh script. The production value is apparently good on first glance, but many settings are reused. They only had one battlefield and the battles never made a whole lot of sense. It was a World War I trench battle with tanks patiently idling behind the lines...
I'm still watching it because it's free on Hulu, but I don't really look forward to it. - poornbroken, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1somehow, you missed the part of the article with antoine walker. his coach used the *full court press* in college. as a main strategy. NCAA final four etc. with this strategy. yes.
and you forget that because you have one guy that has to pass the ball, the defense has a "safety" that can head off a "throw down for a full court pass." - nyawu, on 05/07/2009, -1/+2http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/5/4/malcolm-gladwe ...
Play to win! - rotimio, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Great Article - it covered 3 concepts that I'm very passionate about. Leadership & Strategic Thinking. Having grown up playing soccer I've also wondered why Basketball players don't trap more often. I'd like to meet Vivek someday, I'm sure he's daughter must be very proud....
- shaqtastic, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1You don't press every time because it's too big of an energy drain. Also, if the offensive player is quicker, you will easily be playing 4 on 5 for that possession.
If the other coach can't beat a full court press, they shouldn't be coaching... - inactive, on 05/10/2009, -0/+1that'd make for an easy steal
- pseudosound, on 05/12/2009, -0/+1For those interested in Vivek Ranadivé’s story (the “David in Gladwell’s piece) and his advice for entrepreneurs, here's a link to a teaser to his keynote address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi43fNFWUVg
Vivek is the founder, CEO and chairman of TIBCO. I am an employee of TIBCO. - poornbroken, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1how do you prepare against a team that does not really have a "play?" the redwood city team had more agility simply because they didn't have a lot to coordinate. they just simply outran their opponents. aka, they where everywhere their opponents did not want them to be. because they were tenacious, the more "careful" teams were intimidated into making mistakes, affording the redwood city team easy points.
- seanjohntx, on 05/07/2009, -0/+1There is one flaw in this guys logic. If you always press, then you lose the element of surprise because the other teams know you will always press and they can prepare for it.
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