What is Digg?126 Comments
- liquidfirex, on 07/03/2008, -3/+20Now we just have to build an entire infrastructure based on transporting hydrogen, and discover a way to create it cleanly.
Or we could just use electricity. - ChaseLudwick, on 07/03/2008, -1/+18good to see an American car company working on alternative fuels. We need to see more of this happening in the future to restore our slouching US sales.
- davewashere, on 07/03/2008, -2/+19It's comparing apples to oranges. The Prius is a gasoline-powered hybrid. Isn't the Equinox fuel cell concept/prototype hydrogen based, meaning that it can only be fueled at a few public fueling stations in the country? The infrastructure is already in place for the Prius, while tens of billions of dollars would need to be invested to make hydrogen as common at gas stations as gasoline is.
- spxiii, on 07/03/2008, -1/+15Hindenburg didn't explode. Also, gasoline is not exactly the safest fuel, yet we can't get enough of it.
- Luigison, on 07/02/2008, -1/+15But how much will it cost?
- guillebravo6, on 07/02/2008, -1/+13Chevy is trying to make a comeback, they ware also coming out with the Volt.
- sonoran, on 07/03/2008, -1/+11What a crock! If you *really* spoke to GM engineers and they told you that, it's no wonder GM's on the verge of bankruptcy. The only chance of having an significant explosion with hydrogen is by releasing the gas in a small enclosed area. When hydrogen gas is released in the open it travels upward at about 35 mph, since it's much lighter than air. You can't contain it long enough to make it explode in the open. Gasoline vapors on the other hand are heavier than air and build up to an explosive point easily. Hydrogen in the "tank" is kept in chemical combination with a metal, usually lithium, as lithium hydride, not combustable, not explosive.
- Twee, on 07/03/2008, -0/+10You can fill it up if you're a rich asian living in the city of Irvine, CA.
- BESTenemy, on 07/03/2008, -2/+11A decade old GM EV1 fitted with Li-Ion batteries (instead of the lead-acid it was bundled with) goes the same 160 miles. Why do they have to re-invent the wheel when a perfectly good alternative already exists. Also, over hydrogen production, compression and storage, electrochemical alternative provides much greater efficiency.
Electricity is used to make hydrogen only to be converted back into electricity through inefficient fuel cells? A good battery retains 85-95% of the original energy input. Hydrogen cycle efficiency is 30% at best with the current technology. I'd rather invest into research that would deliver cheaper batteries than deal with hydrogen. - jaredcat, on 07/03/2008, -0/+8It might be closer than you think...
http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/general/fueling ... - oscargamble, on 07/03/2008, -2/+10I've heard six figures. Better to stick with a used car that gets good mileage and ride a bike when possible.
- prisoner24601, on 07/03/2008, -2/+8Honda's Hydrogen Home Energy Station is a perfect solution to this. Put it in your garages and plug it into your natural gas line.
The oil industry is terrified that future hydrogen vehicles will kill NO ONLY their *product* business (oil/petroleum) BUT ALSO their *services* business (local filling stations.) The constant sniveling drone of "there's no infrastructure for hydrogen" is straight from the boardrooms of the oil companies. It has not basis in reality. Natural gas gets to your *home* already and is easily converted. Electrolysis (powered by solar, wind, whatever) of water is a straightforward process. It's only that oil is so easy and cheap that we keep using it, not at all that there are problems using hydrogen. As gas prices go up, even the arguments based on price start to go away.
Don't fall for the ignorant "infrastructure" argument. You can make hydrogen anywhere you can get water to. In case you haven't noticed, that's pretty much every single home in the modern world. The infrastructure problem is a lie. - 0xbaadf00d, on 07/03/2008, -0/+6It shouldn't be a surprise, GM has spent far more on hydrogen fuel cell tech than any other car company.
- srodolff, on 07/03/2008, -0/+6I'm holding out for the Canyonero Hybrid.
- rironin, on 07/03/2008, -1/+6They don't want to re-invent the EV 1. They killed the EV 1 and all the other electrics on purpose. Hydrogen is just the faux-solution that's "only ten or so years away" (like it was ten years ago) that was foisted on the public to take their minds off the actual, immediate promise of electric vehicles.
The only way hydrogen cars will ever become popular is if
1) We run out of oil, and only after paying top-dollar for every last drop and destroying the environment to get it.
2) Oil companies corner and control the market for Hydrogen fuel.
Until then, the oil companies that first touted hydrogen as the "real" alternative fuel solution have no need to actually deliver on whatever promise hydrogen might hold. They will stall and delay until the last possible moment. - LowFuel, on 07/03/2008, -0/+5I think it's actually:
Good Cars > Bad Cars - Suzilla, on 07/03/2008, -0/+4"... drive a weekend loner (sic) hard ..." (first paragraph)
I guess it just doesn't have the same electricity when you're by yourself. - KLowD9x, on 07/03/2008, -0/+4Dude, it was the NiMH cells that allowed the car to go 160 miles to a charge.
Lithium cells gave the car a range of over 300 miles and could be charged to 85% capacity in 10 minutes!
Fuel cells, hydrogen, bio fuels are a scam. The technology is here now for a proper battery electric vehicle.
We don't need the oil companies but they are screwing us over and forcing us to buy vehicles that run on THEIR fuels!
This has got to stop! - sublimemm, on 07/03/2008, -3/+7I agree. My Honda (built in the midwest (except the motor)) is much better than any mexican/candian Ford or Chevy...
- inactive, on 07/03/2008, -0/+4We can use solar, they do it in denmark?
http://got2begreen.com/solar-powered-hydrogen-fuel ... - swordedge, on 07/03/2008, -2/+5That this guy was surprised by the torque of an electric motor shows lack of research/education. The type of electric motors used to propel cars are not only powerful, they have several times more torque at 0 RPM then the rating. This is why the Tesla can out accelerate far more powerful gas cars.
- glucoseboy, on 07/03/2008, -3/+6Nice, where's my nearest hydrogen station? Oh, about 400 miles south of here.
- MaynardJK, on 07/03/2008, -0/+3Dell's exploding batteries were made by Sony.
Just picking some nits :) - lazn, on 07/03/2008, -0/+3My question is what would converting to all Hydrogen vehicles do to greenhouse gas emissions?
Water Vapor is already the biggest greenhouse gas by a huge margin, no matter who's numbers you use.
Hydrogen powered vehicles emit Water Vapor, isn't adding to the worst problem a bad idea? Carbon Dioxide is a smaller % of the greenhouse gas problem.
Does anyone have any research into this? I have looked and looked and can't find it. - BESTenemy, on 07/03/2008, -0/+3 Exactly. Electrolysis is not going anywhere, being less than 50% energy effective. The best way to get hydrogen currently is out of natural gas, coal and oil, which means the access to cheaper hydrogen is in the hands of those that are running oil.
In terms of fuel distribution infrastructure, hydrogen is also the closest item to gasoline. Same gas stations ran by same companies can distribute new fuel. God forbid for any of us to ever charge our cars at home!
Here in California the law that made EV program possible was a regulation that demanded car manufacturers made a certain percentage of cars emission-free. The loophole was that it said nothing about having to sell those cars to the general public. Hence, the failed EV program. Few people were smart enough to lease them and simply not give the cars back, going though piles of paperwork to keep using them legally.
Today the best way to go is to do conversions from gas cars to electical. Costs less than 10K for an average project, but the problem is that cars modded are mostly made of metal and that eats away efficiency. Carbon fiber composite structure is the best for electric cars, but making something like that at home and having it street-legal is next to impossible. - Tourney3p0, on 07/03/2008, -0/+3All of their hybrid offerings are larger with greater towing capacity than the Toyota Highlander hybrid, which only gets about 22 mpg.
- Raider007, on 07/03/2008, -0/+3not to rag on it because i'm all for alternative fuels and developments... but that being said, hopefully an SUV can pull harder and feel like it has more power than a economy car... i mean really is that even something to compare?
- apeweek, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2Not sure, but he may be talking about Altairnano batteries. They can be charged in 10 minutes, from a special high-power charger (not the kind of thing you can have in your garage)
The poster is correct that the EV1 used NIMH batteries, which gave a range of about 150 miles. I am not aware that lithium batteries were ever tried in an EV1 - they were all crushed before the Li-Ion tech really emerged.
Based on relative energy densities of the battery technologies, though, a 300-mile range would have been plausible. - apeweek, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2"...each EV1 cost the General Motors about US$80,000 "
A little insight into auto pricing. Every new model car costs big bucks. Ford's Mondeo, for example, had a $6 billion development cost.
What happens, assuming the auto company wants a successful car, is the price is set where it brings maximum return from sales. Then, you sit down and figure out how far down the road your development cost gets repaid. Need more returns? Do some advertising, or streamline production some more. (The EV1 was never even assembly-line built.)
You don't set your price by dividing $6 billion by your first production run, and then act dismayed nobody buys your car. (Or *pretend* to be dismayed, for the press.)
Once development costs have been incurred, it's water under the bridge. You're not getting it back. You might as well sell the car, even with a slim profit margin. Crushing all your cars causes returns from sales TO GO TO ZERO. - atbnet, on 07/03/2008, -1/+3You know what happens when there is too much water vapor in the air? It rains you dumbass!
- JQP123, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2The Volt is on the right track and has potential in my judgment.
The Equinox FCEV does not for a number of reasons --- the most obvious being the lack of re-fueling stations.
The re-fueling station for an all electric vehicle is called an "outlet" and most people already have one in their garage. - LegoLooney27, on 07/03/2008, -1/+3After putting up a somewhat large initial investment, you could easily create your own hydrogen fuel. Don't whine about the hydrogen fueling station being 400 miles away...
- MrFurious2k, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2Hydrogen could complement a future energy strategy based on Nuclear power and other alternative energies. As everyone here knows, there is energy loss in producing hydrogen. It's sort of like a battery in that it is basically a storage medium for energy. You’re going to have to get the energy from somewhere to produce hydrogen and that’s probably from the power grid.
From what I understand, nuclear power plants produce the same amount of energy all the time. At night, costs are less because there is less demand on the system but in the case of nuclear plants, there is essentially a loss of energy since they continue to produce the same amount. This “lost” energy could be diverted into hydrogen production thereby storing it (albeit in another form). This hydrogen then could be shipped to distribution centers (gas stations?) for sale to the general public.
In addition to nuclear power, things like wind turbines could be used to produce hydrogen. At night wind turbines could shuttle off their unused power to producing hydrogen as well (instead of batteries). In this sense, we might be able to better utilize the power we’re currently generating and reduce demand for oil. Of course, in order for this to work, we’d have to adopt a strategy of hydrogen fuel cells, nuclear power, and additional wind farms.
Finally, hydrogen cars make sense because like gasoline they have the potential for greater range, a faster “refueling” period, and with the right infrastructure, more convenience for refueling. If GM can answer some nagging questions (both technological and marketing-wise) and politicians get past their fear of nuclear power, we could really have something here. - SpaceDreamer, on 07/03/2008, -1/+3"better"?
Better at what?
price? range? performance? efficiency? - apeweek, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2While I agree that fuel cell technology is largely a waste of time (compared with electric vehicles), the water comment is misinformed.
Present day gasoline vehicles create water vapor as well - it is a byproduct of all hydrocarbon fuels. If anything, assuming FCVs are more efficient than gas vehicles, the net amount of water vapor would decrease, not increase. - marx2k, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2Um, passenger vehicles are only one aspect of the oil business. Although it's a somewhat large part, there's also other types of travel (airlines, for instance), there's petroleum manufactured goods, trucks, etc...
- paker, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2I'd only have to drive from Tampa to Orlando to fill up my hydrogen car.
- beauley, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2There have been many attempts to design an electric powered vehicle for as long as the the internal combustion engine has been around. Unfortunately, battery power was never a formidable contender to the present internal combustion engine, but it looks as though the future looks more pronising.
http://www.gomestic.com/Consumer-Information/The-E ...
The Electric Vehicle, is It the Answer? - apeweek, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2A fuel cell car is an electric car (including batteries) with a fuel cell and H2 tank on top. So it will be more expensive (and heavier) than an EV with the same range.
The Equinox weighs about 4800 pounds - almost twice as heavy as the Tesla, for example. - iofthestorm, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2Except how you can buy a Prius now, and not this. But it's nice to see other companies work on alternative fuel sources and increased efficiency.
- T3rry, on 07/03/2008, -1/+3or, we could just sell everybody a home fueling station for hydrogen, so they can convert their home's natural gas in to hydrogen, much like Honda had suggested they will do with the FCX
That would be even more convenient than gas stations, that would be terrible.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-ener ... - stk198323, on 07/04/2008, -0/+2I have a breaking new's for you about that green house effect of water vapor.
Some scientist made some incredible measurement and they came to the conclusion that...
Water vapor get's condensed back to the earth crust when rain happen!
Crazy ***** right? - dagamer34, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2A concept car being better than something in production? AMAZING!
- krazykid, on 07/04/2008, -0/+1Gasoline is more explosive than hydrogen.
- apeweek, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1Okay, compare it to the Toyota RAV4 EV, then, which is an electric SUV. The point is the weight. For a given weight, an EV will have more range than an FCV. It has to. The FCV is an electric vehicle, with added hardware.
- 99butcher99, on 07/03/2008, -0/+1these cars are at least 5-10 years away from production. They have major problems. No where to fuel up is minor compared to no practical way to store enough hydrogen to actually make a trip anywhere.
There was a good electric car available that worked and worked well. It was loved by the people who drove it. Now chevy is taking years to bring out a new improved version that will probably not see the light of day until they are forced to sell it.
There is just no money in selling automobiles. The money is in the service of these autos. Electric=no service and little follow up so it becomes a one time deal. - truck87bp, on 07/04/2008, -0/+1By whom, well that would be Toyota and Honda....Honda says GM's sheet metal kicks ass and they aren't anywhere near GM. Chevy Malibu gets better mileage than Camry and fit and finish is also better than Toyota.
GM is charging...the American public and Digg woke up the sleeping giant. - mmilton, on 07/04/2008, -0/+1You're right.. This article talks about storing it in a solid form. http://www.newscientist.com/blog/invention/2008/03 ...
Perhaps this is a better than trying to engineer a rupture proof fuel tank. - brad3378, on 07/03/2008, -1/+210 minutes?
I'm calling ***** on that one.
220 volts * 1/6 hour (10 minutes) * 30 amps (unrealistic) = 1.1 kilowatt hours.
(assumes 100% efficiency) - MissMyZDtv, on 07/04/2008, -0/+1we really need home solar powered H2O cracking. Use sunlight over the course of the day to split H2 from O, and pump it in a tank in your garage. Refuel when you get home... Won't work for everyone. My wife drives 260 miles a week to work, I drive 40 miles a week to work. Probably more reliable for me than her...
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