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Formula 1 Racing to Go Hybrid from 2009-2013

gas2.org — It’s not quite the same type of hybrid drive-train you ’d see in street vehicles, but in an exciting announcement, Max Mosely of F1 has announced that all cars will become hybrid by 2013, along with other changes to the vehicles.

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  • avengingturnip, on 04/23/2008, -23/+24This can't be good.
    • Dylson, on 04/23/2008, -12/+4This is not good.
      • nickcozy, on 04/23/2008, -13/+3Y is it not gud,hybrid is gud get your facts right ***** tool.
        • domokunt, on 04/23/2008, -8/+2^ The Al Gore generation
          • Opiate, on 04/23/2008, -2/+2Indeed, the entitlement generation where something becomes fact by simply stating it as fact.
        • etnuts, on 04/23/2008, -1/+3AHHHHHHHH!!!!!
    • hoodrider, on 04/23/2008, -0/+4On the contrary, it is good. It should make the racing more exciting with the ability to use boost, there will be some driver strategy as to where to use it too.
    • SiliconRain, on 04/23/2008, -1/+3Has the safety aspect of this occurred to anyone? Having a 5kg flywheel spinning at god-knows-what speed is going to contain a HUGE amount of energy (that's the idea after all...). We've all seen how easily formula 1 cars come apart, and how often that happens. Imagine one of these becomes detached from the car... disaster. Much worse than a stray wheel - any they have killed many people.

      As far as I know, this is the same reason they don't use flywheels in standard road cars - way too dangerous.
      • mentor, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1F1 cars are designed to come apart like that to dissipate the energy of collision. The driver cell is designed to remain structurally intact throughout to decouple the driver from high pressure/direct impacts and distribute the loads over a greater area.

        I agree the clockwork power is silly though ;)
  • nickaster, on 04/23/2008, -22/+14I'm all for hybrids, but this seems silly... it's a race car
    • carpespasm, on 04/23/2008, -3/+9why not? if it makes it go faster does it matter how it does so?
      • dmac41, on 04/23/2008, -1/+5That's the thing, we don't know if this thing will have a positive effect on performance. The boost of speed may not provide enough compensation for the added weight.
      • whataboutdave, on 04/23/2008, -3/+1It is not faster. If it were, teams would make the change voluntarily if given the option.
        • duke, on 04/23/2008, -1/+4Wrong. It's called FORMULA1 for a reason - the rules prescribe maximum displacement, etc. This would change the rules to allow for the hybrid. Happens all the time in racing.
    • ruiacp, on 04/23/2008, -1/+6Why not? There is a lot of engine research in F1, so it can benefit the development hybrid engines.
    • TheRealToma, on 04/23/2008, -2/+8Really, race cars are all about advancement of technology. If it were about pure speed, why not strap booster rockets onto F1 cars? Id say its a good move. make the car companies ditch the crappy century old combustion engine and go for something a little more clever than exploding fossils.
    • Flynnz, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1if done correctly, (which I am imagine it will) could mean more instant tourque, and better gas consumption (less pitting) I Am sure this is more about making the sport more exciting, and has very little to do with "being green".
  • davidryal, on 04/23/2008, -4/+43people automatically equate hybrid with weak ... I don't think that's necessarily the case.
    • soloride, on 04/23/2008, -8/+2yeah they really won't think this when they see this hit the track.
    • TylerM, on 04/23/2008, -11/+4I believe that Hyrbrids and alternate forms of engines are more powerful when it comes to torque, there aren't pistons like a full gas engine so as soon as the pedal is pushed you move, no slowing accelerating.
    • Zlorp, on 04/23/2008, -9/+2their weakness has never been the issue, its the drivability thats always been the problem, their operation is never as smooth as a non-hybrid. just look at reviews of hybrid tahoe/accord/camry
    • Dylson, on 04/23/2008, -8/+1That's because hybrid=part electric and electric=weak for the most part.
    • chakan2, on 04/23/2008, -9/+2Hybrid = Loss of HP + Extra weight = Slower Car = WTF.

      This is a bad move all around.
      • spectre_25gt, on 04/23/2008, -0/+5rtfa before you spout nonsense.
    • ricksite, on 04/23/2008, -0/+7more like...people automatically equate hybrid with efficient ... I don't think that's necessarily the case.

      If an engine is performing at a consistent level, the advantage of the hybrid is lessened if not lost altogether. There is always a loss involved when converting energy from one form to another. With a traditional hybrid, the idea is that the loss from conversion is less than the loss from sitting and idling. If you are driving in a narrow speed range, it is best to design the engine for efficiency in that speed range. If races were stop and go, a hybrid would make a big difference.
    • invinciblechunk, on 04/23/2008, -4/+5Hybrid *is* weak, because it adds unnecessary weight. I can't believe they're considering adding 55 pounds of equipment to a Formula 1 car. That's like 4% of the weight of the car.

      Just wake me up when they go pure electric and can get rid of the combustion engine altogether.
      • monkeymagnus, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1scalextric would be happy with that
      • gsnedders, on 04/23/2008, -0/+4Bear in mind that (most, at least, of) the cars have more than 55 pounds of ballast in them.
        • SiliconRain, on 04/23/2008, -0/+3Exactly. You beat me to it. Formula 1 cars are not a light as they can make them - they have to be a minimum weight anyway. All you do is reduce the amount of ballast and there is no net weight gain.
      • SpaceDreamer, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1RTFA.
        The benefit of This "hybrid" system is mentioned in the article.
        It's a regenerative braking system that gives a boost when required.
    • mentor, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2Bah, they should make the cars interesting; turbo-electric design, big torque-y electric motors powered from a gas turbine coupled to a generator, so the jet can run in optimum mechanical conditions (i.e., RPM) constantly.
  • DoubleTap84, on 04/23/2008, -3/+43And people do not read articles... They are not turning them into Prius'. Read then comment.
    • SVOboy, on 04/23/2008, -1/+8Indeed, these are not battery-electric hybrids, they store kenetic energy using a flywheel in the transmission.
      • Antwan718, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1They do that now with the breaks in the Ford Escape, contrare to popular belief the breaks of a car are always creating friction when even not in use UNLESS you are using drums.
  • brainb0ne, on 04/23/2008, -5/+15Seems interesting, I wouldn't mind a "boost" button in my car!
    • duke, on 04/23/2008, -2/+5Yeah, it's cool. Mine's on the floor under my right foot.
    • AutoXer, on 04/23/2008, -2/+2Sadly, Champ Car does not exist any more. Those cars had a "Power to Pass" button. The cars had a limited amount of time that the button could be used during a race. A very cool concept IMO.
      • spectre_25gt, on 04/23/2008, -0/+4What are you talking about? I just went to see CHAMP cars run this weekend at Long Beach. They're merging back with IRL, but it's not like they're dead and gone.
        • SonicAD, on 04/24/2008, -0/+1No, that was the LAST Champ Car race, and hell, it counted for IndyCar points. The Champ Cars are dead and buried.
      • tomj88, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1A1GP has something similar but whenever I watch it it seems like some drivers use it all by the end of the first lap...
      • Emmo213, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2CHAMP is dead and gone. They filed bankruptcy and are merging back into the IRL. Unfortunately the IRL car is 10 years behind the newly developed CHAMP car. And hopefully you enjoyed the Long Beach race because that as the last CHAMP race ever.
  • Overmind12812, on 04/23/2008, -5/+7So what if the cars don't necessarily go faster, at least its some good old fashioned mainstream marketing for the most modern of hybrid technology.
    • Slices, on 04/23/2008, -1/+4Why shouldn't the cars go faster?
    • whataboutdave, on 04/23/2008, -0/+5I think you're missing the point of F1. This isn't meant to be road-testing new technology for your car, it is supposed to be the sum of the best car technology we have. Sometimes those two overlap, but don't be fooled - the former is just a side effect.
      • redxxx, on 04/23/2008, -1/+1uhhh.... there is a lot of good car technology that is verboten in F1, so it is awfully far from the best car technology available. Safety and competition have always been factors. They've decided a nod to environmental responsibility should also be a factor.
    • SiliconRain, on 04/23/2008, -1/+2I don't think you've read the article. The cars will go FASTER because they are able to store energy that would otherwise be wasted and use it later to increase power under acceleration.

      This isn't about making them use less fuel...
  • thelastcivilian, on 04/23/2008, -4/+33In another announcement, Mosley said that he himself would try a new type of hybrid, asking the crowd: "Any German Jewesses out there?"
    • mentor, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2Additionally, he claimed that he himself had been green for years, being a sado-masochistic hybrid...
  • Slices, on 04/23/2008, -3/+4It will only get better, when best of both worlds is attained! I bet it'll get faster, too!
  • claybodie, on 04/23/2008, -1/+5So does that mean you have to have the need to accelerate quickly to use the kinetic energy stored in the flywheel? I wonder how useful a "boost" button would be for regular cars, unless you starting equipping police cars and ambulances with these things...
  • smacksaw, on 04/23/2008, -5/+9I wonder if the extra 55 pounds are going to detract from the gain in boost?
    • whataboutdave, on 04/23/2008, -3/+4Yes.
    • GoatMonkey2112, on 04/23/2008, -1/+5Nah, they'll just take the weight away from the suspension...
    • SiliconRain, on 04/23/2008, -0/+5No. Formula 1 cars have a minimum weight that is controlled by adding ballast. There is far more ballast in a car than this component would weight. Simply remove an equivalent amount of ballast for zero net weight gain.
  • nicolaport, on 04/23/2008, -2/+1Extra power! one "boost" button for my car also ;)
  • poopdigger, on 04/23/2008, -2/+2I'm still waiting for the car that stores its energy entirely in a flywheel. Such fun..
    • Lane, on 04/23/2008, -1/+1how about a coiled spring?
    • gtluke, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1its been tried in cars and trains. isn't really feasible.
    • coolbru, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1Plenty of energy there, only problem is that if they try to turn, they'll flip upside down thanks to gyroscopic effects. Hm. I guess counter-rotating flywheels would fix that.
  • Lane, on 04/23/2008, -3/+3"energy storage capacity is well suited for Formula-style racing"
    Sounds perfect for my driving habits!
  • thelik, on 04/23/2008, -1/+2i heard something along these lines after the US Grand Prix in 2007, back then they were speculating that the "wasted energy" mosley wanted harnessed was exhaust by bringing back turbochargers, but this is even cooler!
    • Antwan718, on 04/23/2008, -2/+1What are you talking about, turbos would be freaking sweet, in a car with those motors it would probably ad another 500 horsepower.
  • fr0ng, on 04/23/2008, -4/+11This is awesome. Why you ask? My post, let you read it.

    F1 and racing is all about innovation, development, design, and finding the absolute best way to make their cars as fast as possible (within the guidelines, of course). With new hybrid engines coming into the picture, it means the teams will be developing new ways to make their hybrid engines better. Eventually this technology will trickle down into your car.
  • crackah, on 04/23/2008, -5/+10Michael Schumacher got out at the right time.
    • flowaus, on 04/23/2008, -7/+4Because he was a cheating bastard?
    • Auzimov16, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1I completely agree. While I doubt that his leaving had anything to do with it; it seems that about the same time Max Moseley decided it was time to scale everything down in F1. I got into it in 2001, back when it was still high price and 999 Hp. It makes me sad to see what it's turning into.
  • Koush, on 04/23/2008, -7/+2Oh great! now that can use that low voltage battery when the racers are slowing down for the pit lane..thats the hybrids cars top speed.
  • macwac, on 04/23/2008, -5/+22013 - thats 5 years from now.. can't they introduce it a bit faster?
  • foxhound009, on 04/23/2008, -10/+2lolz. :P

    It's a good thing, it will get more people interested in hybrids.
    It will also increase the speed in which hybrid engines are being improved..
    so it's all good.

    And besides :P it will be safer for F1 drivers, it may be 100 km/h lesser
    but it will still be competative :)

    I see only positive here..

    (now.. imagine those duracell rabbits running toward F1 car in the pitstop :P:P)
    great stuff
    • 13B1303, on 04/23/2008, -1/+4Did you rtfa? no batteries! energy stored in a flywheel.
  • whataboutdave, on 04/23/2008, -10/+2Goodbye F1. We hardly knew ye.
  • Ninjao, on 04/23/2008, -5/+2I just want the good old Formula 1 days back.. and by old i mean 1997. Days when the racers could actually overtake because the cars still had drag. I dont even bother watching anymore. You basically race against yourself in the qualifying get your time and keep your position in the race.
    • PCLamer, on 04/23/2008, -0/+41997 old days? lol seems like yesterday to me. When I think of old days I think the 80's and early 90's (pre Senna's death)

      Dont you remember 1987? McLaren (Senna and Prost) won 15 of the 16 races that year. I can assure you, there was not much overtaking back then either.

      The races have been pretty much the same for a long, long time, my friend.

      In 1997:
      Jacques won the championship with 81 pts
      Schumi got 2nd place with 78 pts
      Frentzen 3rd with 42 pts.

      Not very competitive, in the "old days", was it?

      Did you just completely miss last season?????????????????????????

      Lemme remind u:
      Kimi: 110 pts
      Hamilton: 109 pts
      Alonso: 109 pts
      Massa: 94 pts
    • Ninjao, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1No I watched it, I guess what I meant was back then we'd meet up with friends and have a grill and watch the race. We don't do that anymore.. it just got boring. I miss the race drivers from back then.. back then people did overtake more, there was much more action. The only person that interests me is Hamilton at the moment.
    • Prosequi, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2If you have not watched in a while, look at this from last year - you may want to check back in again:
      http://digg.com/other_sports/Rain_Heroes_F1_Racing

  • depend, on 04/23/2008, -1/+0It will be great if it can push Hybrid technology forward.
    • flowaus, on 04/23/2008, -0/+4Only if they're driving the rear wheels. Otherwise its pulling hybrid technology forward.
  • flowaus, on 04/23/2008, -3/+11Breaking: Each team will need 5 hookers and fire-prooof nazi uniforms.
    • Kelmon, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1And to think that I used to complain about the mandatory number of pitstops - suddenly they just got a whole lot more exciting.
  • Oppslagsverk, on 04/23/2008, -4/+2Edited:
    Disregard comment, did not read article first.
  • robotkad, on 04/23/2008, -2/+4Im suss on this article. Firstly, Max is with the FIA, not F1 and secondly, why is this story not on formula1.com?
  • nickcozy, on 04/23/2008, -6/+5Yeah go Ferrari,kimi .Not a single american driver in F1 losers.Better go watch your nascar jerks.
    • brettg102, on 04/23/2008, -2/+1I have been patiently waiting for Montoya to get a hang of his car and single handedly show America just how ***** of racers they are....go JPM! (I'm American, but an F1 fan).
  • BingoPower, on 04/23/2008, -2/+5F1 died with Senna.
    • nickcozy, on 04/23/2008, -3/+1Simply wow sir you rule.Now go watch your senna dvd collections on computer and stay where ever you are.
    • PCLamer, on 04/23/2008, -0/+6+1

      Senna vs. Prost vs. Mansell vs. Piquet

      /nostalgia
  • Rutje, on 04/23/2008, -0/+5They should remove/reduce the wings of the cars: recuding fuel-usage and (more important) increasing overtaking...
    • hardwickj, on 04/23/2008, -0/+0Only to lose twice as much twice as much ground in the corners because they wouldn't be able to keep their tires planted.
    • tomj88, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2The 2009 season will see cars with reduced aero packages, all of the winglets are going to be banned (from what I have heard) so there will be far more overtaking. Also slick tyres will hopefully be reintroduced.

      I have hear though that they are considering making the regulations state that all teams create a 2.2L Biofuel engine that is rev limited to only 10,000RPM (for those that don't know, currently F1 uses 2.4L engines that rev up to 19,000RPM). They will do this to reduce entry costs to formula 1, so smaller manufactures will be more likely to want to join. It would also see the introduction of standard bodies for the cars, so basically it will be A1GP/IRL. I really hope they don't go that far backwards with the technology...
  • racekarl, on 04/23/2008, -0/+7If you're interested in learning more, google "Chrysler Patriot." Chrysler pioneered this technology in the early '90s in a car they intended to enter in the 24h of LeMans. The Patriot was way ahead of its time, environmentally: it had an electric-hybrid drivetrain that burned LNG and had a 100lb carbon fiber flywheel to store and recover kinetic energy. Apparently the whole idea was scrapped because they couldn't figure out a way to keep the driver safe in a crash, what with a giant spinning wheel in the middle of the car.

    http://www.allpar.com/model/patriot.html
  • dilbert, on 04/23/2008, -2/+1After 2013 the F1 cars have to be pulled back and then released for the spring to unwind and power the cars. No, seriously, the only way to mandate energy reduction is to lower the fueling speed to a liter per second and reduce the gas tank volume. Only economic cars don't have to go to the pit too often then...
  • thinboyslim, on 04/23/2008, -3/+2This is the same Max Mosley filmed having a Nazi themed bondage orgy with 6 prostitutes is it?
    Well of course he's going to say stuff like this.
    Watch out next week when he tells us all flying pigs will be used instead of cars starting 2014!
    • Gridl0ck, on 04/23/2008, -0/+0That's completely untrue, dishonest and slanderous. You should be ashamed to be spreading such ridiculous stories that have not a shred of evidence to back them up.

      (It was only 5 hookers)
  • riks311, on 04/23/2008, -1/+4I think we're missing the point here... crumple zones in cars, paddle shifters, and even to some extent cruise control for pit lane speed regulations were all perfected in F1. When you have the top manufacturers pouring millions of dollars into the most advanced cars in the world, the rate of innovation is much quicker than in production vehicles. Eventually this knowledge trickles down to your everyday car. For example: paddle shifting made huge strides in Formula 1 cars of the early 90's, then went on to production Ferrari's, and can now be found in a Lexus IS for under $40k. Almost every car these days is designed with a strong cabin and crumple zones to absorb impact around it. Look at Michael Schumacher's 150+ mph crash in Silverstone, or Robert Kubica's crash in Montreal last year to see how F1 technology has pushed the boundries of safety and technology. This is a small start that can really take off quickly, even if it is from a sick twisted pervert like Max Mosley.
    • Gridl0ck, on 04/23/2008, -0/+0You can get paddle shift in a £8K hyundai, no need for a fancy Toyota (sorry, Lexus).

      The DSG mech used in £20K VW Golfs is more advanced than that Lexus, in fact,.
  • yaygrr, on 04/23/2008, -4/+1Weak... I've heard people propose this to NASCAR... A broadcaster's rational argument against it: The emissions of 43 cars pales in comparison to the 100,000+ people driving to each race every week...
    • tomj88, on 04/23/2008, -0/+2Did you read the story? This is not a typical hybrid system where you have an electric motor powering the car and a standard fuel engine powering the car. It is a system where when you break energy is stored that can be used later as a boost, so say Hamilton is coming up to overtake Massa (as an example), Hamilton could press a button that would give him a speed advantage for a few seconds, enough to make the pass.
    • brettg102, on 04/23/2008, -0/+0What's irrational about that?
  • getelevated, on 04/23/2008, -0/+5Most of you are missing the point, this isn't a way to reduce the emissions of the cars. The idea is to use all energy available to the cars, including the power that can be gained from braking, and use it for thrust. The plan is that flywheel stores the energy and the driver's boost button will give them a quick shot of speed that lasts only a couple of seconds, but if the driver uses it properly then they could sneak in a pass where they wouldn't have been able to without the boots. The big deal with the "hybrid" system is that it's more efficient, which is inherent since the system doesn't use batteries so there is no energy lost to heat. It's very similar to a those rubber band airplanes we had as kids, the flywheel get's wound and the button lets it fly. It's unlikely this will ever make it to most cars (since no one really needs a boost in real life), but with the proper buzzwords this sounds like F1 is doing their part to go green. I like it.
  • serif69, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1I thought Mad Max' big plan was to reduce costs, especially in R&D. So much for that idea...
  • sandiegodude, on 04/23/2008, -4/+1Buried for a misleading title. There is nothing "hybrid" about this. They're not transferring energy into electricity and back. They're basically winding up a rubber band to give them a video game like "BOOST!!!!" button which will wear down once the rubber band unwinds, only to have it build up again. There is no gasoline nor ecological savings here.
    I'm wary about the hybrid claims to "SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT!" since most hybrid vehicles only better gasoline savings by a small percentage anyway, but this... has NOTHING to do with the hybrid revolution sweeping the US.
    • brettg102, on 04/23/2008, -1/+0It's a hybrid in the simple definition of the word....but you're right, it's not one of the gasoline-electric hybrids everyone fellates all day long. (Hybrid savings are negligible...a simple Civic 1.6 or 1.8 is much cheaper, would require over 10 years of gas savings from a hybrid to recover the costs...and we all know people aren't buying the Prius so much because they plan to keep it a decade...they are buying it because it is TRENDY.)
      • 808kick, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1or so they can hit blind people in parking lots
  • zetsurin, on 04/23/2008, -1/+3That sure would be one expensive smug cloud, with all the F1 drivers sniffing their own farts and all.
  • hayden.evans, on 04/23/2008, -0/+1i think you might have a racing class that may use this system, but i think its a pretty big jump to say that all F1 cars will use this by 2013 or to say that this system will completely change the sport. This article is a guess at best.
  • damawa42, on 04/23/2008, -1/+0The article is wrong. It isn't necessarily stored in a flywheel - it can also be a "battery" attached to an electric motor which boosts the rate of acceleration.

    F1 cars can't spare 5kg for a flywheel... and I doubt they can spare the vibrations and instability associated with that!
  • rml1732, on 04/24/2008, -0/+0Can't wait for this to hit mainstream cars. I can almost see the picture of a 2013 Buick rammed through the front window of a 7-11 with the caption of a dazed and confused 80 year old man claiming " I thought it was the brake. I must have have it the boost instead"
  • Jlaw09, on 04/24/2008, -0/+1I'll miss the days of V-12 engines and Renault turbo V-6s. Oh well....
  • SpaceDreamer, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1the next step would be to keep the engine running at full power constantly,
    accelerating the flywheel even when the car slows down,
    so that the accumulated energy can be used in the next acceleration
  • SpaceDreamer, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1more technical details here:
    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/09/26/kers-technol ...
  •  

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