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227 Comments
- tidu, on 08/25/2008, -7/+67I don't understand why anyone would deny that oil is a dead end... Who the hell is putting out these 'myths'?
- IphtashuFitz, on 08/25/2008, -7/+39The big oil companies, that's who. Exxon alone has profits in excess of $10 billion per quarter. With that kind of money they can pay off politicians left and right to keep this myth alive.
- richmomz, on 08/25/2008, -0/+19True electric cars are still a bit more efficient in terms of energy use and carbon emissions but the gap was not as big as I had originally thought. Still better than current hybrid technology can provide though. Was an interesting read.
- JerichoKS, on 08/25/2008, -1/+17I really wish electric cars would get here quicker. Maybe I'm just being impatient, but I'd love for more major brands to start rolling these things out and making them somewhat affordable (please no 100k electric cars).
- inactive, on 08/25/2008, -2/+18completely wrong. Oxygen is a reagent - it doesn't provide ANY energy, but rather allows the energy to be liberated from the gasoline.
Gasoline, just like the battery, is simply the energy storage - richmomz, on 08/25/2008, -1/+16I think it was included in their "well-to-wheel" efficiency numbers (and is the main reason for the low efficiency of 52%). Though this might be difficult to calculate since electric efficiency losses due to "transportation" will vary depending on how close you are to the generation source.
- Holk23, on 08/25/2008, -2/+16I wasn't aware that it was even a myth?
- inactive, on 08/25/2008, -6/+20Electricity is very heavy.
- JHW539, on 08/25/2008, -0/+12There are a number of errors in your post:
1. You are reducing the gross total emissions after accounting for all the energy involved. You are not merely shifting the emissions to somewhere else.
2. It is massively simpler to treat emissions from a centralized stationary plant rather than putting emissions treatment on every individual car.
3. The fact that solar panels are massively energy positive (they produce far more energy over their life than used in their manufacture). The myth that they require more energy to make than they'll produce in their life was wrong in the 70's and is flat out laughable now. - kalvinb, on 08/25/2008, -0/+11All I want to know is what is the cost per mile for me for fueling the car.
And I think that's what most people care about. At $3.59 (a common price around Phoenix, AZ) it costs about 15 cents per mile to drive my car at 24mpg.
Even if the well to tank efficiency is worse than gas for some alternate source I don't care as long as the fuel costs on my end are lower than standard gasoline. People care about their pocketbook first. Then I can look into industries I have no say in and see if there's ways they can reduce costs on their end that may in the future trickle into my wallet.
Also, low efficiency from well to tank means there's a lot of room to lower prices by increasing efficiency. There's not much we can do with oil besides get more of it. And eventually there won't be more to get. So while prices may drop it's not reliable.
With electricty there are countless ways to generate it. So once it becomes cheaper for me to use electricity vs gas then I can be pretty certain that in the long run I'm going to save a lot of money. - redux2redux, on 08/25/2008, -0/+11It was also interesting that they started with gasoline.
Shouldn't it be petroleum and the electricity consumed in refining it? - carve, on 08/25/2008, -0/+11The advantages of electric cars, besides being a bit more efficient, are that you can make electricity with ANY fuel (including solar, wind, hydro, domestic coal etc). This gives us energy independence. You can also charge your batteries with wasted off-peak energy, and emissions are easier to manage at a central power plant.
- DjLoTi2, on 08/25/2008, -1/+11Ford, GM, and other major car companies discontinued their production of electric cars less then 10 years ago. They didn't make enough money for the companies, so they were all scrapped. You can see all of the details on " Who Killed the Electric Car " on Google video. It's kind of a bummer when you realize people have been dying because of oil, and we don't really need it. It's us vs. the corporations, and at the gas gauge they're beating us bigggggg timee
- null7238, on 08/25/2008, -0/+9it bothers me seeing these articles on electric cars, complaining that you're using a source of fossil fuels to get your electricity. not everywhere in the world gets their electricity in the means of using fossil fuels. for example, i live in manitoba and we get our electricity from hydro-dam's, so if you wanted to be green, electric would be the way to go hands down.
- ncc74656m, on 08/25/2008, -5/+14No need for nuclear power here! It can't possibly be better than huge choking amounts of carbon being spewed into the air!
- inactive, on 08/25/2008, -3/+12wow that super obvious sarcasm just went psheeeew right over your head.
- MrFurious2k, on 08/25/2008, -1/+8Good article but there are some issues that still need to be overcome. The biggest issue is that the savings from a Corolla to a Prius takes several years worth of high gasoline prices just to make up the difference in the sales price. Getting your ROI takes a while. Add that to the increased complexity of the system, the inconveniences of hybrids in relations to repairs/service and hybrids are not exactly the perfect solution. For most people who need a small commuter car, a simple fuel efficient standard gasoline (or diesel) vehicle would better suit them. The Volt might change the equation, but it still is going to have a limited service/repair issue.
- eggsovereasy, on 08/25/2008, -0/+7Batteries are...
- gtluke, on 08/25/2008, -1/+8the fuel gas cars carry is also naturally occurring solar power suspended in liquid
- ncc74656m, on 08/25/2008, -6/+13Who would have any reason to do such a thing? Surely not the oil companies and the corrupted Energy Department and EPA!
- sweetdan, on 08/25/2008, -0/+7yes, but a FINITE amount of oil. and one can assume that if there is a paradigm shift to clean energy sources and electric powered vehicles, sooner or later the mack trucks and caterpillars will be hybrids or electrics as well.
- Knowltey, on 08/25/2008, -0/+7Do also note that to refine the gasoline, electricity is taken off of the grid to run machinery, etc...
- Nerys, on 08/25/2008, -0/+6First only one metric matters to me.
MY COST PER MILE
Secondary Metric? Stop supporting the 2% of our population that "claims" over 90% of our wealth. An electric car economy would infuse over a trillion dollars back into the economy and thats JUST in fuel costs.
Now the tesla is Lithium so its not "that" efficient. about $2.56 per 100 miles. A good light NIMH powered car like the EV1 (keep in mind its over 10 years old now) costs just $1 per 100 miles.
The average american car costs $20 per 100 miles the PRIUS costs a little over $8 per 100 miles (and thats if you can afford the $24,000 price tag) at what the average american can afford 30mpg its $13 per 100 miles.
How that is even remotely close to be as cheap as an electric car ...
Another myth. MOST of our power is from fossil fuel. Actually IIRC its about 54% of our power coming from Fossil Fuels for our power plants
Another Myth. Electric cars will increase the grid load. Electric cars will actually REDUCE grid load not increase it. FIRST they use far less energy per mile AND less energy than we currently expend to GET those 2-5 gallons of gasoline INTO your fuel tank.
Another Myth. Electric Cars are expensive. They are only expensive because we are forced to use expensive batteries since Chevron the controlling owner of the NIMH battery patent they acquired from GM refuses to license the batteries to anyone except the ONLY ones who do not want to make one Large Auto Makers.
Electric cars are like any other SOLID state creation. Once you scale up production the price drops insanely quickly.
LED's are a good example. I just bought 3 2watt LED bulbs from sams club where each bulb has some 20+ led's for about the same price as I would pay to buy 3 "single" led's from radio shack.
the VERY first major retail push for LED's has already resulted in the absolutely cheapest LED bulbs I have ever seen yet. $15 for 3 of them.
The same thing will happen with electric cars. I mean consider this. I ALREADY KNOW they can build a full working gasoline powered car and SELL IT for $10k (go buy a kia)
Consider that the NIMH battery when in SMALL production numbers 10 years ago was $4500. An electric motor $2k the controller $2k other Misc components $1k
Thats $9500 and thats in LIMITED QUANTITIES and NICHE cottage industry components.
Remove the engine transmission and ALL OTHER associated no longer needed gear from that $10k kia and its $5 so in theory I could build an electric car for $14,500 and thats with NICHE cottage industry parts and existing car tech. Mass produced making an electric car for under $12k would be EASY if a major manufac put in the work.
Know what that would cost me? $0 you see the amount of money I am spending RIGHT NOW on gasoline is a greater amount of money than the monthly payment on a loan of $12k.
Add in a $1600 grid tie in and a $1000 solar panel from Nano Solar and now the car is 100% pollution free 100% zero load on the grid and 100% FREE to drive.
Just imagine what would happen to our economy if we both infused a trillion dollars a year BACK into the economy AND it cost us NOTHING to drive anywhere. NOTHING for UPS to power there trucks Nothing to power the 18wheelers.
THINK about it. It would virtually eliminate unemployment. It would be a new golden age for the lower 90% of our population.
The only economy it would ruin is that of the top 2%
Electric cars WILL literally change the world as we know it. - davidrools, on 08/25/2008, -0/+6electricity line loss from plant to home is much much less than the energy spent drilling, trucking, trans-oceanic tankering, refining, and trucking again to the gas stations, not to mention the fuel everyone spends driving to and from the gas stations, whereas electricity is in your garage.
- CosmicJustice, on 08/25/2008, -2/+8I can drive 400 miles on a full tank of gas and I can fill the tank in 5 minutes and go another 400 miles. When electric cars can go 200-400 miles on a charge and be recharged in 5 minutes then let's talk.
- MrMysterious, on 08/25/2008, -0/+6The Chevy Volt sounds promising, I guess that I'm not 7,793 on the waiting list!
- Grazfather, on 08/25/2008, -0/+6well to tank, not tank to power.
They mean about 81.7% of what they did up makes it's way into your engine.
the engine-to-power is MUCH lower. - JHW539, on 08/25/2008, -1/+7The EV-1 electric car had a usable 60 mile range - this was on the technology of a decade ago. The average American commute is 32 miles. As a second car, I'm not sure where the problem would be for the majority of commuters.
- DjLoTi2, on 08/25/2008, -2/+8I don't understand how people don't believe that with the advancement of technology in the past ... 15 years... ( what google? What internet? wireless? What's that? ) that we're using the same brown fuel to burn that we've been using for 100 years..
- Holk23, on 08/25/2008, -4/+10is a very simple answer to your question... Oil Companies
- floorman56, on 08/25/2008, -0/+5Cmon, how often do you take 800+ mile trips?
Most people ? not very often
But people only have a certain amount of income to spend on a car. they want one that they can do the most with. not a special one off
Say I live in San Fran and want to go to Yosemite for the weekend. that's a 3 hr trip. Very easy with a car. maybe just 1 tank
But with a EV it would not be possible even if you could get there you would have no place to recharge you would be stuck
Very few people will drop $18,000 on a car that they cant even take out of the city. - TruthExposed, on 08/25/2008, -0/+5O=O
That is not an "equal" sign between the oxygen's, it is the double bond between 2 oxygen molecules, the breaking of which during combustion releases energy. Most people ignore oxygen's contribution for convenience. It is the reaction between the hydrocarbons in gasoline and oxygen that produce the energy.
The bond energy of the O=O bonds is 116 kcal.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyP ...
I took way too many chem classes in college. - Evolutuon, on 08/25/2008, -4/+9Oil companies and "researchers" funded by them.
- DjLoTi2, on 08/25/2008, -0/+5(see: "Who killed the Electric Car")
Like the Ford Ranger EV.. you could probably look it up, but it's all in the video it's a good, in-depth documentary on the production and history of the Electric Vehicle. - TruthExposed, on 08/25/2008, -6/+11Gas powered cars are not only gas powered, they also run on oxygen, so they only have to carry 1/2 of their fuel.
Electric cars must carry 100% of their fuel. - FrankTheTank17, on 08/25/2008, -0/+5Is that film really even worth watching? It's pretty biased towards GM. During that time, Chrysler, GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all made electric cars that all failed on the market. The documentary makes it seem like GM was the only one and they are solely responsible for the car to come off the market.
- mtekk, on 08/25/2008, -0/+5"well-to-tank"
Having problems understanding that? That's from the ground to the fuel tank in the vehicle, not well-to-wheels which must take in account engine efficiency. - Bith8654, on 08/25/2008, -2/+7Cmon, how often do you take 800+ mile trips?
- jnordb, on 08/25/2008, -2/+7Well, hydro has its own problems, namely the impact it has on fish and wildlife.
- helfon, on 08/25/2008, -1/+6Even if electric cars did use as much energy at the very least it would reduce our energy dependence on such an unreliable part of the world
- MikeFallopian, on 08/25/2008, -1/+6It was addressed in the article. Well-to-battery efficiency includes all losses between the extraction of raw fuel and the charging of the battery from the power grid.
- bhicks11, on 08/25/2008, -2/+6This answered some questions for me. So if wind, solar and hydro power were your energy source and you had an electric vehicle, there would be no energy pollution!
- Nerys, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4Ever stop to think what there NET income is. IE how much CASH from our economy is "sent" to exxon etc..
Exxon brought in 327 BILLION last year. Thats just ONE oil company, mull over that for a bit. - NuclearIsShit, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4Did you even read the article? It stated that even if you use the dirtiest type of energy, coal, that it still produces less pollution then regular cars.
- pkulak, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4Yes, Tesla does, and that's where he's getting his numbers. I think it's above 90% average efficiency for the US grid as a whole, which makes it the most efficient energy to transport that we have.
- PennFarmer, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4How do you get a 30% ROI and what is that measured from?
My car is 10 years old and so has had o carbon emission from manufacturing for a long time. It gets 38 - 40 MPG during my daily commute from work to home and the Prius only gets in the realm of 42 - 45 MPG in actual gas mileage from what I understand (not the manufacturer's claimed mileage).
I paid off my car 7 years ago, so I would have the entire cost of the Prius to overcome in order to get any actual ROI. My ROI is incredible. I somehow doubt the Prius is anywhere near it.
The Prius is a lot of talk for not a lot of car. Is anyone considering the waste of all these older cars that are being dumped in order to buy the newest eco-car? A lot of this emissions stuff is so much smoke and mirrors. What most Americans truly care about is their pocketbook, not the environment. They want a Prius because they can get better MPG, not to nickel and dime their emissions output. - Nerys, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4Electric cars use 1/6th the energy of a gas car. so instantly emission are lowered to 1/6th what they are now.
Lets add more. Power Plants are cleaner per watt than cars are. IE your centralizing your pollution source.
Lets add more. only 54% of our power is fossil fuel powered.
Lets add more. Solar panels last 20-30 years easily. Considering that a $1000 nano solar panel can produce MORE WATTS in a typical month than you will use charging your electric car I think anything you have to say about the efficiency of solar panels both in power and materials to make them is nothing but laughable.
nano Solar will be producing (already is but not to consumers yet) solar panels at 90cents a watt. Do the math.
Add in the dramatic reduction in materials needed to BUILD an electric car versus building a gasoline powered car and its abundantly clear your complaints about transference is just laughable.
YOU either work for oil or you really have no idea how this stuff works. - apeweek, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4The TCO per mile of electric cars is an interesting topic that takes a while to get into. But I'll give you an idea (I'm an EV driver.)
For an old EV like mine (picture here: http://evalbum.com/775 ), the major factors are electricity cost, battery replacement cost, all other maintenance, and resale value. There's good news in almost every category.
Electricity costs 1 to 2 cents per mile (with an off-peak overnight electric rate from my utility.)
Battery replacements (about $800 every 20,000 miles for flooded lead-acid batteries) comes to about 4 cents per mile.
Other maintenance is very low. My vehicle is 27 years old, and still has all the original motor and electronic parts. I have just had to deal with body rust, brake work, and suspension repairs. Let's say an average of about $200 per year, or about 4 cents per mile for me (I put about 5000 miles/year on my EV.) There is no other regular maintenance to worry about - no filters, fluids, tuneups, etc.
Resale values on EVs have typically been very good (and a nice offset to the high prices of some of these cars.) My own Electra Van, for instance, sold new in 1981 for $7999. Today, 27 years later, this model typically sells for around $5000 used. Since it has about 100,000 miles on it, the $2000 difference between buying and selling prices works out to 2 cents per mile.
Adding up all of the above for my own EV gets me a TCO per mile of just 12 cents. The best part is that, as a self-employed person, I can take the IRS deduction of about 50 cents per mile on my business miles, which, after the math, reduces my tax by about 16 cents for every mile I drive. In other words, the IRS PAYS ME to drive this car. - donkevin, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4@Truth
It is too an equals sign!
... you just used it to represent something else :P - Mespinal23, on 08/25/2008, -0/+4GM produced the EV1, an electric car, back in 1996. Like the previous posters said, watch "Who Killed the Electric Car".
http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/articles/inde ... -
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