What is Digg?Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate
Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate.Sponsored by Microsoft
Microsoft responds to the headlines. view!
microsoft.com/everybodysbusiness - Read our developers' points of view on the headlines making news.
134 Comments
- KissTheRing, on 10/12/2007, -4/+61I love my Macs, I have a powerbook G4 and an intel iMac, but lets keep this clear, this is a driver issue not an issue with windows. Windows may have it's flaws but this one can't be blamed on MS. I'd say within a few days this will be fixed as will the other driver issues.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+48This is neither a Mac problem nor a Windows problem. Is a limitation to the hack, just remember that the XP running on macs is due to a HACK. Very impressive hack, but still not perfect, its not easy to make a driver.
- prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -17/+35I'm going to agree. That's awful engineering. If OSX kernel panics (and it does from time to time), then the fans would stop since the machine is hung.
That's the opposite of how things used to work. Back when YDL didn't have G5 fan support, the G5 fans would run full-blast. - mathcaddy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Hanthus: you're exactly right: It's neither a Mac problem nor a Windows problem.
It's a user perception problem.
I bought my Macbook Pro Thursday and had it dual booting by Friday. At first, I thought XP was runnning significantly hotter than OS X, but I think my initial conclusion was made without really pressing OS X.
It turns out that it's heating up *faster* in XP than in OS X, but it does not get hotter. My 2.0 ghz Macbook is almost too warm for my lap when encoding video in OS X. It gets to the same point and no warmer in XP, it just seems that the fan kicks on only when it gets hot as opposed to in OS X where the fan gradually stages up, which is quite nice if you're just browsing digg all day. :-)
The bottom line is XP runs hotter in general, but not overall.
For that reason, I would consider the Macbook an OS X laptop (unless you're maxing the CPU) -- or an XP laptop with some insulation required. :-)
If you doubt the intensity of heat generated under XP is not greater than that in OS X, check out this guy's comments on Flickr: http://flickr.com/photos/bwana/102660336/ - shakin, on 10/12/2007, -17/+33How come it's so easy to 'brick' Apple products? I've heard of people bricking their iPods, PowerBooks, etc while trying to install weird software.
In this case... why would a case or CPU fan need a driver to turn it on? Sounds like a big design problem. By default the Mac should work, which means the fan should spin up to its normal operating speed. If you want a driver to do tricks like speed down the fan or whatever, then implement it in a way that won't keep the fan from turning on if the driver doesn't turn it on. What happens if the driver on OS X becomes corrupted or otherwise fails to load? - FunkyWitDaSysTm, on 10/12/2007, -14/+29it's easy to "brick" apple hardware because it's specifically designed to run apple software. it's a well-known fact, and when people expect their mac hardware to perform in the frankenstein manner that pc hardware does, it's no surprise if they fry something. fry it because the fan driver doesn't work, for example...
and, to answer shakin's question, if an apple driver becomes corrupted in os x (rare), then the harware will simply not load or work (rather than malfunction), and there will be an account of an extensive (and sensical) error message in the bootup log file. from there it can be determined if the driver is corrupt or incompatible.
it's like taking a rolls royce and putting some ***** honda-esque exhaust on it. prolly won't help the performance, gas milage, or anything else. while it will make that obnoxious noise as intended, it will probably have negative effects on the car's engine and exhaust system rather than positive ones, and the onboard computer will freak out so much it may not allow the car to start at all. not to mention that it would almost certainly void the warranty as well... - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -13/+27Why is that "piss poor engineering"?
Apple expects it to run OSX. Its not their problem if people decide to put whatever OS they want on it. - GME4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14The fan works fine on the MBP under Windows --- There is no difference in temperature when running OSX or XP -- the test results are on http://www.onmac.net in the Wiki
- larowebr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I love how WinXP-on-a-stick, I mean Mac, is in pre-proto-pseudo-Alpha stage and everyone is screaming like it needs a full-time regiment of support staff. Of course there are going to be weird things that don't translate; the OS is running natively on a platform for which it wasn't designed, and has only been running on Intel Macs for a week. Besides the whole "Fan Driver Doesn't Exist" thing, those of us who aren't programmers would do well to keep tabs on the project, but re-visit it in a few months when significant strides have occured.
- jewdass, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14you go ahead and do that to your $2000 laptop...
- SupaDawg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14lol. here's an idea. run it off a device molex connector. who needs variable speed when you can run at 100%. :D
And "fan driver"? that's just plain strange. - TheCount, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14A cute analogy, does that mean that a mac is a rolls while windows is a crappy exhaust system? Perhaps you want to give it another go and try to hide your bias a little better?
The only reason this problem is an issue is because the mac was not designed to run XP, pure and simple. It's no conspiracy. It's not a fault in OSX. It's not a fault in XP. It's not because XP is crap and is demolishing an otherwise pristine machine. It's not because the Apple machine was designed poorly to not regulate the fans in hardware.
The machine simply was never built to run anything other than OSX. There will be a fix, as others have mentioned. Give it time. I would never try a hack like this on a MacBook Pro anyway, not after paying as much as we all did and knowing this is a proof of concept. That's just silly. - will-rom, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13not to be a troll... but why would you try to put windows on a "mission critical" mac anyhow?
- j0rd4n, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12I have to admit I find this a little humerous. Fans are controlled on the hardware and not software level. Sure, drivers may exist to regulate fan operation (minimize power consumption). However, when you first power-up your machine, the motherboard automatically powers the fan before software is ever loaded. I don't see what this has to do with what OS is loaded on the machine.
- Godric, on 10/12/2007, -28/+37Add Windows to the growing list of things that shouldn't be anywhere near your MBP.
Firefighting cats
Cat piss
Windows - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Apple often uses custom-designed, non-standard hardware. Even the Intel Macs which use Intel motherboard have custom designs implemented to Apple specifications. It's no surprise installing something from the standard PC world wouldn't interoperate correctly with some components.
- Rosewood, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Actually it sounds more like paranoia / article with no proof.
- spiralfive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8If OS X crashes (kernel panic), the fans spin up to full speed. Or, at least the do on my iMac G5. It's only had 2 kernel panics (my fault for screwing up a hacked front row install) the entire time i've had it, though.
- kyrobeshay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9...10 bucks you're less than 15 years of age.
- mprog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Some of the post above are correct... Fan speed is controlled by OSX. However, the fans are set to run at 100% speed by default, so if you boot XP and it lacks a driver to control the fans, the computer will be just fine... Loud, but fine.
I think it's a great design. Software is able to easily control the system, keep fan speed at a minimum, and allows future updates to easily modify operation if future research into heat dissipation deems it necessary. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11You should design your hardware to not rely on software to keep itself operating and not overheating. Not the best choice to do it through software ALONE.
- egon0119, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I can't speak for the Intel Macs, but I know that at least on the G5 towers if the system doesn't receive fan instructions from the OS after a given time, the hardware sets the fans to full-speed. http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/2Architecture/chapter_3_section_9.html
- tripm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Just remember, this experiment has never been suggested as being for the faint of heart, nor to be attempted on a mission critical Mac.
Considering that I wait a few days before upgrading the OS or applying a security patch, I'd be shocked to find out that there are many aunts and uncles out there "taking the plunge"... - TheCount, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Why the hell did people bury prockcore's comment? Because you don't think you agree with him?"
You just realized that this is what the comment system promotes? It serves it's purpose by getting rid fo lame "no digg!" or "digg!" comments, but also works very well in censoring unpopular opinions. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5They use software to control the fan speeds to operate at the quietest way possible.
- mancat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5This is complete *****. There is no such thing as a "fan driver." Fan speeds are handled by your systems ACPI BIOS. If the ACPI BIOS is not recognized or initialized by the operating system, the fan will default to 100% power. Otherwise, the variable fan speed is handled by onboard ACPI circuitry once the ACPI BIOS is initialized. It is not handled by the operating system by default unless you make use of software tools or the OS' built-in interfaces to the ACPI BIOS to directly specify fan speeds.
It is possible, though, that the Apple hardware does not behave as is defined by ACPI standards, and fan power is set to 0% upon ACPI BIOS initialisation. That would be a glaring design defect in Apple's hardware. - Zorkon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Actually, there's some evidence for a fan driver of sorts.
On G5 iMacs, if you boot with the T key held down (to enter "target disk mode", aka turn your Mac into a big external harddrive), the fans *will* come on at 100% full speed (and they sound like a jet taking off). I've also seen this behaviour when applying a firmware update to my Mac.
Without the OS loaded, the fans run full tilt in order to keep the machine cool.
So obviously, there's some sort of fan driver / control in OS X.
Now, the question is: are the Intel macs designed the same way, and if so, why aren't the fans running full-tilt when the machine is booted into Windows? On the G5s, the purpose of the "fan driver" seemed to be to keep the fans from automatically running at 100%. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5People on the forum ARE confirming this. You don't read the Engadget story, you read the actual thread.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -24/+28Why aren't the fans automatic if it doesn't detect software control for it? I think that's just piss poor engineering if that's true.
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you do fan control in software, you can tweak it via later updates -- which could result in extended battery life, and lower noise.
- digitalgopher, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5link to thread.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=187294 - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Just another bit of proof that Mac assumes nobody will ever write a virus for their platform! Imagine how many Macs could be fried with a virus that instructs CPU fans to spin at 10%!
No, this isn't an engineering flaw. Engineers love to assume best-case scenarios. In a vacuum engineers are gods. In the real world they're idealists. - j_bellone, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Oh ***** please.
The "Apple hardware" is merely a "custom" Intel board with the generic new Core Duo and an EFI chip.
Win-tel. Jackass.
It does not matter anyway, this is a BS article, because the Intel hardware turns on the fans regardless when the temperature gets too high. Now, on the other hand, if Apple "designed" their opearting system this way its piss poor design. What if I wanted to install Linux? By default PC fans are controlled by the BIOS, especially the CPU fan. - goathurter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Also, I seem to remember patches for the G5 towers that specifically addressed fan issues. I know that OSX interacts with the fans to control the airflow. It's actually an example of good engineering for the OS to control fan speeds to help reduce noise as much as possible. Most other PC manufacturers could care less about such details.
- kyrobeshay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Why would someone BS about something like this? People on the osx86project forums and onmac forums, who are trying really hard to get xp to work, are reporting this as well. Some are saying that their fans only come on when the computer is pushed to the limit, and others say their fans are working just fine. I've also heard issues regarding the sound output jack as far as the sensor light always being on, leaving your connector extremely hot. It's not Windows sucks lolz, or zomgz 4PP13 fanbois!!!!11!!, it's basically because windows wasn't made to be fully adaptive to the intel macs... so obviously things aren't going to work...and macrumors.com was probably not the best choice to choose this story from, as it brings down the credibility of it.
- molecool, on 10/12/2007, -14/+17I don't buy it - a 'fan driver'??? LMAO - I suspect this is not controlled by the OS, it's a thermal sensor inside your machine which triggers the fan. More FUD to keep Windows off Apple systems? (fear, uncertainty, and doubt - used by M$ frequently to exterminate a competitor)
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The fan sensor is passive. Sensors can only sense. They need software to do something with the data. I don't know about Macs, but in PCs the CMOS can analyze the fan speed and adjust it according to the CPU temperature. Windows can inadvertantly control fan speed by clocking down the CPU when it's not in use (like Athlon's Cool n' Quiet technology) but it can't control the fan directly.
FYI This is just informed speculation. Please correct me if this is wrong or incomplete! - Zjm7891, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Well the mac folks on their forum ARE confirming this... so everyone is getting conflicting results.
- pudquick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4A simple read of the rest of the forum debunks the concept of 'fan never turns on'. Misrepresented story. Reported.
- evanm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3i don't believe you need a fan driver... its a mater of whether or not the device is getting power from the mobo
- digitalgopher, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8for those who need a clue:
this article is SUPPOSED TO BE SPECULATIVE. It talks about a POSSIBLE vulnerablility that exists when doing this. No one is claiming that this is confirmed! Read the title and article before you report as innacurate.
***** morons. - panique, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Apple uses the same tech in their notebooks to increase battery life and on their desktops to reduce noise. Apple is all about the user experience. Ambient noise in the workspace and battery life are key user experience issues.
- TheD, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I think i figured it out.
1. They want to be able to play their PC games
2. They dont want to spend the money on 2 computers
3. They lust after apple hardware and or OSX
given those situations. having a dualboot machine would make some sense. not for me mind you, i will always want a mac running mac os, and a separate pc box running a windows os. and then you just turn to the other machine, or plug them both into a switch box.
"ok. i developed this (insert thing here), now i want to check it in windows (insert software here). I'll shut down...hhhhhmmm hmmm hmmmmm, then wait for windows to boot.....hmmm hmmmmm, aaa here we go, just log in,....hmmmm daaaa daaaa deeeee... and navigate to the network....theres my (thing), ill just run it now.....hmmmm haaaa...there, oops it needs some tweeking the bla bla hoozel is not loading like i want. OK, back to osx....shutting down windows....hmmmm hmmmmmm hmmmm......."
I think you see why a "dualboot" is not practical for anyone who needs to actually do work on their computers. physical switching oper. systems, yes.through an interface (like switching accounts), yes.
"dual, boot", no.
anyone? hello?
thanks. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Weird, I smell burning electronics :P
- mattyohe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Wait a minute... I think these fans have enough intelligence to fail "on". If they lose connectivity to a driver they dont shut off.. they turn on at max speed... This works that way on a XServe and I assume the iMac's fans are no different.
This has to be a rumor. - richbradshaw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Isn't the fan normally controlled by ACPI?
- Zjm7891, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If SOME people would use the pretty little spell-check button...
- mike_p, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3For the record dwntwnboi... Apple has been running their own hardware for ages, true. But there isn't that much of a difference (especially now that they're using Intel) between Mac/PC hardware. It's not quite apples and oranges we're talking about. You can play it safe if you want to but there's no way you can prove that we (the people trying WinXP on our IntelMacs) can't dish out more power running XP than OSX. There are two sides to the spectrum... hardware and software. Apple products are not the last word.
- 16x9, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2> donwilson wrote: "I think that's just piss poor engineering..."
I noticed that during the one kernal panic I experienced last year, the fans in in my G5 tower actually kicked up to full speed and stayed there until I rebooted the machine. So, perhaps whatever mechanism manages the fans needs OS X to get things set up in the first place but then in the event of a crash they simply kick themselves into high gear.
If this is correct then it would certainly help explain why booting into Windows doesn't get the Mac's fans going. After all, Windows isn't designed to "know" about Mac fans. - kyrobeshay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3disagreed.
I could care less about the sales future of Apple products. Nor do I hope that people buy intel macs with the idea of putting windows on it. I don't think jeapordizing the quality of the product because of more sales is the right idea. Heck, that's why apple isn't whoring themselves out to all these other pc manufacturers. They know their products are made with such quality and care, and would rather keep sales at where they are now knowing that they produce something of worth. I don't know as to where you came up with that idea and generalizing it to all apple fans, me being a fan myself. -
Show 51 - 100 of 134 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is