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106 Comments
- FuzzyCat, on 10/12/2007, -16/+122
You know it's kinda strange.
Bill Gates creates a foundation, donates huge sums of money to charity and everyone hates him.
Steve Jobs is an ***** and people love him.
go figure.. - baxtermaddux, on 10/12/2007, -9/+52whenever they call me in for a meeting, i like to get right up in his face and take a huge chomp out of an Apple to emphasize my powerful jaws. its also a useful metaphor
- sockpuppets, on 10/12/2007, -5/+43I unhinge my jaw and swallow an underperforming coworker when I know he's around. He likes that can-do attitude.
- sockpuppets, on 10/12/2007, -11/+39I like to wear white turtlenecks and have a zune in one ear, it keeps him peppy.
- joe90210, on 10/12/2007, -12/+38it's no secret really that jobs is a giant *****
- roberto_deneero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23It sounds more fun at least than a meeting with the Bobs.
- jcurran, on 10/12/2007, -29/+48Let me help out - Gates promotes what is undeniably some of the most buggy and insecure software in the world (so much so that entire industries exist to make up for its various shortcomings), whereas Jobs has actually advanced the state of the art not just for techies, but even for the consumer who doesn't realize they running a real OS underneath the consistent user interface.
- noreturn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21For anyone is wondering what Jobs told him about the iPhone, he takes a passing statement made during a meeting in 2002, and spins the rest of the article on pure speculation. In short, Jobs didn't tell him anything about the iPhone.
- dr_rock, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23Good lord. At least you got one fact right; that he was fired. Replace "90s" with "1985" and "lucky to get his job back" with the fact that Apple bought NeXT for $402,000,000, mostly to get Steve Jobs back. That's not luck. Think about that the next time you bash him (or anyone of his stature). Someone paid half a billion to get him to work for their company. What is your total compensation package worth?
- hereisjohnny, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19"Customers do not know what they want to buy. We have to tell them." - Apple's then vice-president of hardware, Jon Rubenstein.
- SVPirate, on 10/12/2007, -9/+24I have great respect for Steve Jobs, as well as a lot of other major figures in IT. That doesn't mean I won't be the first to stand up and say he's wrong when he's wrong, or he's out ofline when something goes awry. The truth is, however, that I rarely *have* to say that. He is a fairly heavy ahnded dictator but the style works well in the industry he works in.
- baxtermaddux, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20Steve likes it when i recreate the logo right in front of his face.
- kungfumaniac, on 10/12/2007, -17/+30Same thing goes for getting girls. It takes years to hone one's game to perfect *****.
- anonym41414, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17In business, there's exactly one get-out-of-jail-free card: being proved right. If you line up all the ideas Steve Jobs has had himself or has supported, the ones that turned out to be good ideas vastly outnumber the ones that turned out to be bad ideas. This was even true of ideas he had when EVERYBODY thought he was wrong. Remember NEXT? It was a total failure, a business disaster, an unmitigated boondoggle and eventually became a phenomenally successful product ecosystem. Steve was eventually proved right, and that's a humbling and awe-inspiring thing.
In many ways, Steve is like the goose that lays the golden eggs. You're more than willing to put up with the honking and the ***** everywhere because, damn, man. The EGGS are made of GOLD. - mugenkeiji, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14numptydumpty: You might want to steer clear of those big words yourself. The word that you should have used was 'implore'. If deplore was semantically correct within that sentence, it would mean precisely the opposite of that which you intended.
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15"You know it's kinda strange. Bill Gates creates a foundation, donates huge sums of money to charity and everyone hates him." - FuzzyCat
Sounds like somebody is forgetting how Bill Gates got those huge sums of money in the first place... - bluesdealer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13As crazy as that sounds, it can actually be true in the tech industry. When alot of products don't exist to fill a need, marketing can create a perceived need, therefore the product sells. This is very much the case with gadgets, mp3 players, new computers, hardware, etc.
- zang74, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13@flag564
"I am loyal to HP, because I love their printers. I dont excuse bad behavior from their executives, cove up bad news nor try to act like a zealot in order to get people to use an HP printer."
You mean like you were doing with the Zune there for a while? Anything anti-Zune and you were all over it, flag. You can't deny that, as a quick look at your history will show. Even those not associated with Apple or iPod; you were calling them shills and fanboys. People were giving honest opinions of the Zune, but if they weren't positive or dared to compare it against it's largest competitor (iPod), then you'd call them Apple-astroturfers and suggest that Apple paid them for their reviews.
And whether you want to admit it or not, that quite nicely fits into your definition of Fanboy. - znicket, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Of course this is the case. Customers don´t have the foresight nor the knowledge of the landscape of possibilities that exist. There was no real demand for personal computers until Apple made them cheap and available. There was no specific demand for video exchange on the internet until Youtube came into being. The tech visionaries have to predict and imagine the products that they can market to the people and thus change their lifestyle. PCs, Walkmans, mobile phones, text messaging, ipods... all examples of products that the public didn´t actually need or envision any use for. All are examples of huge success today.
Saying that, the title of the article is a bit misleading as it does offer a fascinating insight into the way that the decision making process works in Apple. This is not about how it is in a meeting with Jobs, more about what Jobs said in that particular meeting. - Ninjab3ar, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18I'm no Apple fanboy, nor do I worship Steve Jobs, but I gained a respect for him when I heard the speech he gave in Stanford.
This blog entry does make him seem like an *****, but I wouldnt know because I never met him, so I wouldnt really rely too much importance on this article. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Yes but where did Microsoft's money come from? They destroyed a lot of good companies with ruthless tactics along the way to acquiring a lot of cash.
If I rob a bank and kill a few people in the process, would you then look kindly upon me if I spend 10% on cancer research or helping villagers in Africa?
Regardless of if you feel this analogy is correct or not, this is why many people do not admire Bill Gates as much as they might otherwise with the charitable work that he has done. Also, there is something of a feeling that his conversion to helping with charitable efforts really springs from his wife... - beatdown, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16Digg: Honing one's game to perfect *****.
- thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@sockpuppets
Maybe you need to look into a porn career?? - zang74, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10And I hate when people use false facts in their arguments against Apple:
"they bought an already functioning technology from Tony Fadell, former Philipps-employee."
Not quite the truth. They hired Tony Fadell into the iPod group, which had already been established before Apple hired him on. You make it sound like they just bought the technology and told him to eff off.
"Not true. This was actually a total ripoff Apple didn't even pay for.. This has all been invented at Xerox PARC research labs."
Do your research. The Mouse/Windows paradigm had all been invented in 1964, more than a decade prior to the PARC project by a man named Douglas Englebart. Several of his employees left to work for Xerox in 1976. Xerox didn't create it, just took and existing idea and developed it more; the same exact thing Apple did. Apple even went so far as to hire on several PARC employees for their expertise, because Xerox was stalling severely with the project and it wasn't going anywhere.
3. "Apple invented the Dashboard-Widgets, Microsoft blatantly copied their idea".
Sure, Apple was inspired by Konfabulator, but perhaps you're too young to remember that Apple's Desk Accessories (clock, calendar, etc) were once in existence. They were independent of Applications, in that more than one could be run at one time. Other than the name "widgets", can you tell me exactly what Apple took from Konfabulator? There are similarities for sure, but again it's product evolution. Konfabulator had it's roots elsewhere too. http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator
"4. "Time Machine"."
Who's claimed Apple invented it? It's a backup utility. It does however, take a unique approach in it's interface. - chesterton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6None or very little of the discussion I can see on this thread have anything to do with discussing the actual article.
What gives, gang? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8"Please!
That argument is no longer valid, Windows XP is very stable and reliable.
I've yet to experience a bug or a crash."
Yeh YOU haven't experienced getting a virus or a bug or a crash that's because you represent the small percentage of users who know what they are doing hence why you are on digg in the first place, You have to remember that the large market share of users that XP hones are the computer illiterate users who install Banzai Buddy cause they think its cool. - ersnyder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5FTA: "probably cutting Apple sales people out of any new commission revenue for phones, much as they have done for the iPod."
Apple Sales people are not on Commission.
- Former Apple Employee - honds, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10@MikeCampbell
Nah, I didn't digg him down because of his God comment. I dugg him down because I actually likes the "Pirates of Silicone Valley" movie! Ok... maybe he is right, it is cheesy, but I liked it. - To0n1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@ mugenkeiji
I agree with your principal that, indeed he's just a CEO, but as of late he's been a good CEO.
He returned to apple about what, 10 years ago give or take a year, and completely turned the company's fortunes from where it was headed (back then, into the ground) to where it is today (a top tier company that's sparked debate and change not just in the computer industry, but in music, video, and various other consumer industries).
Granted, I wouldn't call him God's gift to the Forbes 100, but he's been working as a CEO for a bit now, so it's not bad to go ahead and give him some sort of objective rating of having good corporate governance. - joeydoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Why do people hate Windows so much? There's no such thing as an evil OS because without an OS (any OS) you can't do *****, some are better in some aspects but Windows is not a bad OS, the problem is that Windows is the market leader by a HUGE margin, hence more people trying to mess with it."
I don't think anyone actually hates it. It's just there, and everyone knows it's generally weak.
Out of the box XP is a barren wasteland. I have never had a Mac, I might a laptop soon who knows, but I get the impression that I use it out of the box and never need anything else.
An example: I watched some youtube video the other day where Jobs was demoing some of the features of "Next OS" when ever that was to come out, late 80's early 90's?). There was a usability and basic features that I though.... "hmm I wish windows could do that". - KoderOne, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11You know, Steve even buys the wrapper to put around the candybar. From frogdesign or the like. There are actually no industrial designers on apple's payroll. I think Steve still selects a lot of the designs for Apple's products. And even if he's a total ***** (I personally don't know him), he has taste and a very good instinct for upcoming/innovative technologies.
So the candybar is from Intel, the wrapper from frogdesign and the ingredients are BSD - what does Apple do? They put it all together. AND admittedly they do this in a very tasteful, usable way.
OK, now that was an extreme statement - Apple does a lot when it comes to software development and user interface. But i can't stand fanboy-retards saying: "Apple invented this and that".
Just a few examples:
1. "Apple invented the iPod."
- Not true. They bought an already functioning technology from Tony Fadell, former Philipps-employee. Admittedly it wouldn't have sold that well if Apple wouldn't have put their special sauce on it. And they selected the design (after reviewing who knows how many concept models). http://lowendmac.com/orchard/05/1014.html
2. "Apple invented the mouse/window-paradigm."
- Not true. This was actually a total ripoff Apple didn't even pay for. This has all been invented at Xerox PARC research labs. Same goes for Laser printing and TCP/IP (the last one which Steve didn't consider interesting at all for a very looong time). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto
3. "Apple invented the Dashboard-Widgets, Microsoft blatantly copied their idea".
While I have no clue which Microsoft actually copied, Apple clearly "got inspired" by Konfabulator, which has been there before the dashboard made it into OSX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfabulator
4. "Time Machine".
A similar technology already existed in bell labs "Plan 9" OS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
I could find lots of more examples, but this ought to be enough. Some state that Apple invented even USB and Firewire. While Apple has always been a pioneer in early adopting promising technologies, they didn't invent that either. Also, its not entirely true that Apple is so innovative - while Windows and Unix systems already had things like preemptive multitasking, protected memory, multi-user interface and so on, Apple still had their "one-task-at-a-time"-OS8/9 system. Of course, that was while steve was at NeXT and NeXT had all that. So I guess it cannot be taken into count.
Now digg me down, but note that I did not mention the "one mouse button"-argument. I leave that old antiquated argument to other Apple-bashers :-) - KoderOne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"@KoderOne: HP printers suck? What? Have you ever used a decent HP printer"
Waaaay OT, but actually Printers are my Job. I cannot count how many different printer models I had to maintain in my life.
The HP Indigo digital press systems are admittedly very, very good. (because it's not their technology, hehe) - KoderOne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Well, "zang" (Wayne's World totally rocks, dude), you actually made some good points, so let me answer on that.
>>Not quite the truth. They hired Tony Fadell into the iPod group, which had already been established before Apple hired him on.
True. That's why I provided links to all the points I mentioned, so everybody can read the whole story. Actually Fadell brought in the most important part of the iPod-hardware. Without it, it would've been either impossible for Apple to come up with such a good product or it would've taken them a lot more time. I am only speculating on that, though.
>>You make it sound like they just bought the technology and told him to eff off.
Sorry, that was not my intention. But "make it sound like" doesn't mean I actually claimed that (cause I definitely wouldn't have).
>>Do your research. The Mouse/Windows paradigm had all been invented in 1964, more than a decade prior to the PARC project by a man named Douglas Englebart.
Yes, that is also correct. A little nitpicky, but right. note that I have always mentioned working models (though prototypes) of hardware and software that has been copied from, not ideas. I would even agree to "Woz invented the personal computer as we know it". Meaning a small computer with keyboard and screen, not just switches and lights. Of course someone very likely may already have had that idea, but he actually built one (Apple One) that worked. And I doubt he had his hands on a similar machine already built before he invented his own machine, so it's unlikely to me that he stole the idea.
>>Other than the name "widgets", can you tell me exactly what Apple took from Konfabulator? There are similarities for sure, but again it's product evolution.
No, here you are totally wrong. The dashboard resembles Konfabulator in any way. What's the most cool feature in Widgets, do you think? That you can very easily program one yourself in a common programming language: JavaScript. And it's embedded in HTML. Just like Konfabulator. And very not like that stoneage features from the old Mac OS. That's NOT product evolution, that is copying. That konfabulator was also a ripoff, I didn't know that, but thankyou for enlightening me, really.
>>Who's claimed Apple invented it?
A LOT of folks. And the interface of Plan 9's solution IS exactly what has inspired Apple for Timemachine.
Well, all I really wanted to say with this, is that Apple is not THAT innovative, like most fanboys like to think. They are not constantly inventing new technology, they mostly pick together what they like, what seems to be promising. I wouldn't say that is wrong, because most tech-companies do so.
Can you agree.
And I can't agree that Apple, Macs, OSX, iPods or whatever are just the best and everything else sucks. All Computers/Systems have their pros and cons, I like all of them, even Windows. I cannot stand certain Snug-Apple-users who like to smell their own fart. And, since the Intel-Switch I really have the feeling the Mac became the PC, not otherwise. What's actually the significant difference between a mac and a PC nowadays? In Hardware? There is none. The Mac comes in a well designed case and can run OSX. It also runs Windows. PCs and Macs today ore not really different anymore. Also, why always Microsoft-bashing from Macusers? They don't compete with Apple in any market, not the OS market and MS doesn't build PCs. Why don't they bash Dell or HP or whatever. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@catfish: Is it wrong to think you are "the *****" when, in fact, you are?
It's not just Apple's opinion they are good, it's sales results from real customers that bear out this attitude. Until they are proven wrong by releasing a product that does not gain acceptance (like the cube) they have good reason to think they may know better than the customer when customers keep asking for one thing but buying another. Customers did not think the iPod would do well, for example. Yet here we all are. - heffae, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4If you liked the Pirates of Silicon Valley. You should go and find Triumph of the Nerds. Triumph is a documentary on the history of the PC industry (It's a bit dated now but still good) and Pirates of Silicon Valley is basically a dramatization of that documentary (I won't speculate if it was intentional or not)
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There is no "one important part" of the iPod. All parts contribute equally to the success of the device, including ITMS and iTunes.
Lots of music playing devices before the iPod had singular aspects that were great, while other areas lacked. The iPod brought together a lot more good points into one device than most offered, and that is not the result of any one man - not Jobs, nor Fadell - but a great team. Thus is is appropriate to attribute the success of the iPod to Apple as an entity. - DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Zang,
Quite true. I'd also like to point out that even though flag has intelligently defined what a fanboy is, he won't hesitate to call anyone who likes Apple products an Apple fanboy. And if you don't like certain features or aspects of products such as the Zune then you surely must be a fanboy of some other company, most likely Apple. I've made some anti-Zune comments that would have surely gotten me labelled a fanboy yet I just got an Xbox 360 and I'm very happy with it. - vanman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I've met Steve a couple three times and there are two things that really stand out about him to me. 1) He is insanely focused, and not on himself but on the things he is working on. He will ask you what you thing about every aspect of the product, the color, the experience, etc 2) he could care less about the cult status and I think he hates it when people approach him that way! Approach him as a person not a legend. That's my impression from our brief chats in the past. That said, Steve is the Jedi whether he wants the title or not! :)
- anonym41414, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's not just true in technology. Right now I work in communications. (Not TELEcommunications; communications. Like words and stuff.) The client always thinks they know what they want. But at the same time, they know that you're smarter than they are. You know they know this because they're paying you a hundred thousand bucks a month. So it's not usually very hard to convince the client that they're need to be quiet and listen to you, even when what you have to say isn't what they thought they wanted to hear.
- zang74, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Actually Fadell brought in the most important part of the iPod-hardware. Without it, it would've been either impossible for Apple to come up with such a good product or it would've taken them a lot more time. I am only speculating on that, though."
Not particularly, given that prior to hiring Fadell, Apple had approached Creative (then leader in the HD MP3 player market) to design and manufacture the iPod. Creative told them to shove it up their rectum. The thing that set the iPod apart from other players of the time wasn't the hardware. It was the clickwheel and the interface. I suspect the hardware was one of the last pieces of the puzzle to be included.
"No, here you are totally wrong. The dashboard resembles Konfabulator in any way. What's the most cool feature in Widgets, do you think? That you can very easily program one yourself in a common programming language: JavaScript."
That's a bit of a copout, don't ya think? Apple obviously copied Konfabulator because they both use Javascript? Konfabulator uses proprietary Javascript APIs to do everything. Javascript is used in Apple widgets because they're based on WebKit (hell, you can run dashboard widgets from within Safari if you wanted). Dashboard widgets aren't based solely on XML, but can be based on HTML, XHTML, CSS. Not to mention Dashboard can use C++ and Perl aside from Javascript if the developer chooses. They are mini webpages, and therefore are no harder to put together than a website. The fact that they both use Javascript is evidence of deliberate ripoff is moot as they both use it in different ways, and are developed in different ways. I suppose my website would be a copy of Konfabulator given that it too uses Javascript?
"A LOT of folks. And the interface of Plan 9's solution IS exactly what has inspired Apple for Timemachine."
I can't find any evidence that the *interface* for Plan 9's fossil file system is in any way similar to Time Machine. The interface for Plan 9 in general is pretty rudimentary compared to current GUIs, and I highly doubt being able to isolate a window of an application to then go back and see previous iterations of said window is how fossil(ized) files are accessed. Sure, they both use drive snapshots, but snapshots are nothing new. - cstump, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The only thing interesting about Steve Jobs in this article is his forecasting of market trends. Time will tell if his forecasts are correct. Insightful article relevant to the upcoming Macworld's announcements. Good read, I digg.
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Jerk or not.. where's my iPhone!!
- zang74, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9Brilliant,
Good thing you're not biased in any way to give a rational statement. "Oh look, one of them replied" and "atheist-sheep". A wonderful bit of inflammatory trolling there. You destroyed any credibility you had by insulting the group you're trying to argue against. - aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Who cares if Steve Jobs is not a nice guy at work? He is not supposed to be your best friend. The guy is looking to do the best job he can and if you are not doing your best work he will let you know it.
The bottom line is the guy expects nothing less than the best from his people and business partners. - aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well there you go, a boss is not supposed to be a nice guy. They are supposed to make sure you are doing your best work. There is nothing wrong with being hard but fair.
- DarkDakota, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Sure O.K, I like my Mac so i'm in a cult? But i also use Ubuntu at home as well. Does that make me a Linux cultist as well? oh, and My Ubuntu Box's are just a pretty wrapper (Gnome/Kde) on a candy bar too (Linux).
"No matter how evil Bill Gates & company might seem, "
ROTFL
yeah, is that seriously your defence of such a person? . .. he donates a lot of money?
oh, so it's ok for his company to be a monopoly, just as long as he gives a lot to charity.
oh go buy a clue. No man is a god, Steve , Bill or otherwise. To worship anyone is to undervalue yourself. Yes even you vintechsys.
there is no such thing as an "Evil OS"
it's not the Sword but the arm that wields it, plain and simple. and my Guns are mighty, regardless of the OS that I'm using at the moment. - pjakobs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Oh, and to add one more thing... if I had my way, there would be a line on the businesscard of every salesperson saying "shut up and listen!".
This line would be printed on the backside and, upside down, on the top of the bc so that the salesperson can read it when (s)he hands over the card and all through the meeting. It's amazing to see how many ordinary sales people think a sales meeting is about them, their company and their products. It's the customer, stuipd!
pj - gbezou, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you guys should check out Steve Jobs profile at TheBossAwards: http://www.thebossawards.com/index.cfm?action=profile&managerID=2A4ACE02EB472B66B9BD4FE972E42B12
- zang74, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"When a person posted a review of the Zune written from a apple users blog/website, yes I was "all over it". Those reviews were written for the express purpose of trashing the device for no other reason than it was not an iPod. I was NOT telling people to buy a Zune nor was I saying that the iPod was a piece of $hit or "Doggy Doo" like many iPod fanboys were quick to do."
Really? So the numerous times you've commented about iPods dying after a week were just an expression of love? Or the numerous times you personally insulted people who commented about their displeasure with the Zune; that was just rainbows from your fingertips? Get real. You were, perhaps, more eloquent than the 12 year olds out there, but you were just as inflammatory as those fanboys.
"No, many were written by self admitted Apple fans. There is an issue of credibility. When a person writes in the first sentence how much they love there iPods but they are going to review the Zune, then the article is crap."
Really? So an appreciation for Apple automatically makes one's credibility, honesty, integrity and impartiality go right out the door? Wow, I really like Sharp's Aquos HDTVs. I guess that means I can't give an honest opinion about a Samsung HL-S6187W, huh? Leo Laporte gives a negative review of the Zune and suddenly you're calling him an Apple shill. You are so blinded by your active hate towards Apple, you'll say just about anything to justify your anger, even if it's a complete lie or makes zero sense what so ever. Many of us here know it.
You actively choose to pigeon-hole people into this narrow minded idea of "Apple Fanboy", for what seems like no other reason but to give yourself a sense of superiority. Want proof of that? You're a self-proclaimed "anti-fanboy" and yet here you are commenting about Steve Jobs in a story in the Apple topic. Why is that, flag?
"Um, no. If you were really keeping up with what I write, you would know that I praised fair reviews that told good and bad about the Zune. I also rant against tech reviews that give blanket positive reviews of anything from Apple. People that give positive reviews of Apple products that dont even exist are astroturfers."
Actually flag, you've used the term Astroturfer (incorrectly I might add) for just about every type of Apple story. And your definition of a "fair review" of the Zune was quite narrow. Any mention of the iPod and it was no longer "fair", despite it being the largest competition.
Your bias, inability to leave or block the Apple section of Digg, insulting remarks towards Digg users, and the fact that you respond to almost all questions as to why you're here in the Apple topic with "well, the fanboys..." makes you a troll and a fanboy. If you weren't, you wouldn't be here, right? -
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